Iran starts mass production of new Valfajr Torpedo

[Penguin]

Yes, heavyweight torpedoes are quite a devastating naval weapon.

Today in an official ceremony, the mass production of Valfajr torpedo was unveiled by Defense minister, Hossein Dehghan. It has a range of 10-15 kilometers, with a 250kg warhead and diameter of 534 mm.

A rather odd diameter since heavyweight torpedoes globally are 533mm or 650mm. If 534mm then it won't fit standard tubes of e.g. its Kilo and Yugo classes.

It appears to be the enhanced reverse-engineered version of North Korean CHT-02D torpedo which split a South Korean frigate in half after hitting it in 2010.

Uhm, why would Iran need to reverse engineer a North Korean torpedo? That suggest an unauthorized duplication. If Iran has obtained torpedoes from North Korea, it can also have negotiated the plans, e.g. in trade for some of North Korean debt to Iran. This is also how Iran obtained some minisubs from that country.

 

[Serpentine]

A rather odd diameter since heavyweight torpedoes globally are 533mm or 650mm. If 534mm then it won't fit standard tubes of e.g. its Kilo and Yugo classes.

A 1 mm difference? I'm not sure really if that's going to be a problem or not and it's not necessarily precisely 534mm. I'm sure they have figured that out before producing it. It's going to be launched from Iran-made Ghadir midget subs.

Uhm, why would Iran need to reverse engineer a North Korean torpedo? That suggest an unauthorized duplication. If Iran has obtained torpedoes from North Korea, it can also have negotiated the plans, e.g. in trade for some of North Korean debt to Iran. This is also how Iran obtained some minisubs from that country.

That was just an assumption, but even if it is, there is no problem in reverse engineering it, an 'unauthorized duplication' is meaningless. Iran has had military ties with NK simply because of arms embargo and the fact that they have been willing to do it. There are also reports that we have helped them to develop space launchers. It's a bilateral relationship.

Now, why are you suggesting these are not reverse engineered? Do you have anything to prove it?

 

[Penguin]

Nice torpedo
It can be launched by a big variety of our vessels.

It can be launched from all of our attack submarines, and our surface vessels equipped with torpedo tube, such as Jamaran class frigates.
In some cases launchers need some modifications (as it is a 534 mm torpedo and vessels like Jamaran are equipped with 324 mm tubes), but it can easily be done.

This torpedo is mostly meant for Ghadir-class submarines. It really boosts their offensive abilities
Just note that we have more than 20 Ghadirs

Imagine our kilo-class subs, equipped with more than 20 of these babies, and the ability of launching 6 of them, simultaneously


there is no secondary explosion.
the white cloud is just the water splashed into the air!

324mm tubes are for light weight asw torpedoes (which can also be carried by helicopters). 533mm tubes are for heavyweight torpedoes. Depending on the torpedo, these are single or dual role (either antiship or antisubmarine, or both) amd homing (e.g. wake, noise) or guided (by wire).

There was secondary explosion from within the dummy ship. Someone else can give you details with more experience in that particular field.

There is no secondary explosion. The torp explodes below the keel . The ship initially lifted out of the water (breaking its back) then the explosive force surfaces.

Compare:

Step by step explanation : Exploding Destroyer: Warship Sunk By a Torpedo in Pictures

Dramatic moment U.
S Navy ship is sunk by torpedo from Australian submarine during target practice | Daily Mail Online

 

[jammersat]

With this we can definitely overwhelm a US aircraft carrier, torpedoes in the underwater and the Emad from above, not to mention the IRGC speed boats who are made by North Korea aswell, too bad the US carrier groups have already left the PG

 

[Penguin]

A 1 mm difference? I'm not sure really if that's going to be a problem or not and it's not necessarily precisely 534mm. I'm sure they have figured that out before producing it. It's going to be launched from Iran-made Ghadir midget subs.

Most modern launchers are standardised on a 12.75-inch (324 mm) diameter for light torpedoes (deck mounted aboard ship) or a 21-inch (533 mm) diameter for heavy torpedoes (underwater tubes), although other sizes of torpedo tube have been used

Torpedo tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Even the Chinese and Russians ....

That was just an assumption, but even if it is, there is no problem in reverse engineering it, an 'unauthorized duplication' is meaningless. Iran has had military ties with NK simply because of arms embargo and the fact that they have been willing to do it. There are also reports that we have helped them to develop space launchers. It's a bilateral relationship.

Now, why are you suggesting these are not reverse engineered? Do you have anything to prove it?

What, you're offended because I point out there is no reason to believe it is reverse-engineered!? (As is reverse-engineering is somehow a good thing... reverse engineered = clandestine copy > lots more things that can go wrong). Why do I have to proove it is NOT reverse engineered, when it is your claim it is. You claim, you proove.

I did point out the pre-existing relation with North Korea in the field of submarine acquisition and development.

> remove chip from shoulder <

With this we can definitely overwhelm a US aircraft carrier, torpedoes in the underwater and the Emad from above, not to mention the IRGC speed boats who are made by North Korea aswell, too bad the US carrier groups have already left the PG

Sure,. lets just start shooting for no good reason

Heavyweight torpedoes are nothing new to the USN. They've faced navies that have them for decades.

 

[Maravan]

Being sanctioned for so many years, still the growth of iran's defense industry is astonishing. Congrats Iran..

 

[Serpentine]

What, you'r offended because I point out there is no reason to believe it is reverse-engineered!? (As is reverse-engineering is somehow a good thing...)

I did point out the pre-existing relation with North Korea in the field of submarine acquisition and development.

Why should I be offended? I asked you to provide a proof that these are imported. There is no problem in reverse engineering, as long as those weapons are going to hit the enemy, it's alright. It's not like the weapon will stop in the middle of the way saying: "I'm reverse engineered, so I shall refuse to hit the enemy out of dignity".

We are under an arms embargo and Iran's military budget is not enough to spend so much money building anything from zero, that's just plain stupid. As long as the weapons that are reverse engineered work just fine, there is no problem in it.

 

[Penguin]

Why should I be offended? I asked you to provide a proof that these are imported. There is no problem in reverse engineering, as long as those weapons are going to hit the enemy, it's alright. It's not like the weapon will stop in the middle of the way saying: "I'm reverse engineered, so I shall refuse to hit the enemy out of dignity".

We are under an arms embargo and Iran's military budget is not enough to spend so much money building anything from zero, that's just plain stupid. As long as the weapons that are reverse engineered work just fine, there is no problem in it.

Why do I need to prove these are imported. I didn't say or suggest they were imported. Where did I suggest any difference in effectiveness between a reverse-engineered and a licence produced weapons?

I suggested, as an alternative explanation to 'reverse engineering' (= unlicenced copying) that it might well be possible that Iran actually bought blue prints (maybe even production tools) from which it could start the development of its own version.

That is in fact a much less risky and probably faster development path. You assume reverse engineering is cheap: it isn't, since you have to spend a lot of time and effort figuring all the components of a complex system out. And many more things may go wrong.

As for arms embargo, where do you think a lot of missile technology Iran has obtained originated from? Nuclear cooperation between Iran and North Korea has raised widespread international concern for years. The United States has been greatly concerned by North Korea's arms deals with Iran, which started during the 1980s with North Korea acting as a third party in arms deals between the Communist bloc and Iran, as well as selling domestically produced weapons to Iran, and North Korea continues selling missile and nuclear technology to Iran.

Do you have proof it is reverse engineered?

> remove chip from shoulder <

 

[Serpentine]

Why do I need to prove these are imported. I didn't say or suggest they were imported. Where did I suggest any difference in effectiveness between a reverse-engineered and a licence produced weapons?

I suggested, as an alternative explanation to 'reverse engineering' (= unlicenced copying) that it might well be possible that Iran actually bought blue prints (maybe even production tools) from which it could start the development of its own version.

That is in fact a much less risky and probably faster development path. You assume reverse engineering is cheap: it isn't, since you have to spend a lot of time and effort figuring all the components of a complex system out. And many more things may go wrong.

Yes, that's also a possibility, but we should go with a theory that has worked out till now. It's not likely that North Korea gives blueprints of its weapons to Iran, there are military relations, but not on that level and 2 countries are not allies to begin with. Plus, we also reverse engineered one of the most advanced torpedoes in the world, the Russian VA-111 Shkval. You wanna say Russians also gave us the blueprints of the fastest torpedo in the world?

As for arms embargo, where do you think a lot of missile technology Iran has obtained originated from? Nuclear cooperation between Iran and North Korea has raised widespread international concern for years. The United States has been greatly concerned by North Korea's arms deals with Iran, which started during the 1980s with North Korea acting as a third party in arms deals between the Communist bloc and Iran, as well as selling domestically produced weapons to Iran, and North Korea continues selling missile and nuclear technology to Iran.
Do you have proof it is reverse engineered?

We are way beyond buying anything related to ballistic missile tech from NK, as we are now ahead of them in missile technology. There was a time when we didn't even know what a missile is, and we bought some from Libya and NK, while Syrians taught us how to use them in 80s.

Btw, when I say arms embargo, I mean buying weapons from major arms suppliers in the world, including Russia and the west.

Actually I don't care much if it is reverse engineered or built with blueprints, I think the only thing that matters is that it is being mass produced inside Iran. In a war, no one asks you whether your weapons are reverse engineered or not, when you can't produce anything domestically and completely rely on foreigners, you are doomed to lose eventually.

 

[Penguin]

I'm sorry, I get the impression you continuously misread my posts. A few more remarks:

• I did not suggest NK gave anything (for free), rather I suggest a business deal
• There are well established military relations between Iran and NK since at least mid 1980s
• To reverse engineer the Russian Skval, you first need to acquire at least 1 such item from the Russians. Since this is one of their newer, high-end submarine weapons, which hasn't been exported extensively, how would Iran have obtainted this but for some Russian cooperation? Or did it simply develop a similar domestic weapon, using the same basic technologies (i.e. no reverse engineering involved)?
• In addition to the Russian Navy, the Shkval rocket-assisted torpedo has been sold to India, Iran and Ukraine. Shkval
• If Iran is so good at reverse engineering, why reverse engineer a NK torpedo (rather than e.g. one from Russia) + how was that original obtained?
• You can edit your p.o.v on missile and nuclear technology, fact is there are long standing military-technological relations with NK

I still do not understand why you have a problem with the mere suggestion that this is not necessarily a case of reverse engineering.

"Reverse engineering, also called back engineering, is the processes of extracting knowledge or design information from anything man-made and re-producing it or reproducing anything based on the extracted information. The process often involves disassembling something (a mechanical device, electronic component, computer program, or biological, chemical, or organic matter) and analyzing its components and workings in detail.

Reverse engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop acting to defensively: it kills any kind of real discussion (irrespective of topic)

 

[scythian500]

I'm sorry, I get the impression you continuously misread my posts. A few more remarks:

• I did not suggest NK gave anything (for free), rather I suggest a business deal
• There are well established military relations between Iran and NK since at least mid 1980s
• To reverse engineer the Russian Skval, you first need to acquire at least 1 such item from the Russians. Since this is one of their newer, high-end submarine weapons, which hasn't been exported extensively, how would Iran have obtainted this but for some Russian cooperation? Or did it simply develop a similar domestic weapon, using the same basic technologies (i.e. no reverse engineering involved)?
• In addition to the Russian Navy, the Shkval rocket-assisted torpedo has been sold to India, Iran and Ukraine. Shkval
• If Iran is so good at reverse engineering, why reverse engineer a NK torpedo (rather than e.g. one from Russia) + how was that original obtained?
• You can edit your p.o.v on missile and nuclear technology, fact is there are long standing military-technological relations with NK

I still do not understand why you have a problem with the mere suggestion that this is not necessarily a case of reverse engineering.


Reverse engineering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Stop acting to defensively: it kills any kind of real discussion (irrespective of topic)

Actually 534 mm torpedos are not unusual and they can be fired from standard 533 mm tubes...

NAVY SYSTEMS

Russia and France already made 534 mm torpedos

Novator 3M14 LACM phase1 complete
NAVY SYSTEMS
List of torpedoes by name - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Iranian sources it says it is a 534 mm torpedo and will be fired from standard 533 mm tubes of Ghadir-class and Kilo-class submarines.. It only will be used by under water forces... It is already operational and installed on both of these classes...

There is no official announcement of the spec unless that it will be fired through standard 533 tubes and is smart in a way to counter any counter-measures by target ships... and that it has a very strong type of HE in it...

The Mashreghnews website which is semi-official tribune of IRGC says, it probably has a nearly 300 kg warhead and a range of around 20 kms or more..

There is nothing out there to define if it is reverse engineered or bought through blue prints or an upgraded version or a totally new design as we don't know what kind of systems the torpedo uses inside...

btw, the Hoot super-captivating Torpedo also is 534 mm...

my personal perception is that Iran acquired some and then upgraded it with new systems in a way to make it smart and change its warhead with better explosives...

 

[Serpentine]

I'm sorry, I get the impression you continuously misread my posts. A few more remarks:

• I did not suggest NK gave anything (for free), rather I suggest a business deal
• There are well established military relations between Iran and NK since at least mid 1980s
• To reverse engineer the Russian Skval, you first need to acquire at least 1 such item from the Russians. Since this is one of their newer, high-end submarine weapons, which hasn't been exported extensively, how would Iran have obtainted this but for some Russian cooperation? Or did it simply develop a similar domestic weapon, using the same basic technologies (i.e. no reverse engineering involved)?
• In addition to the Russian Navy, the Shkval rocket-assisted torpedo has been sold to India, Iran and Ukraine. Shkval
• If Iran is so good at reverse engineering, why reverse engineer a NK torpedo (rather than e.g. one from Russia) + how was that original obtained?
• You can edit your p.o.v on missile and nuclear technology, fact is there are long standing military-technological relations with NK

I still do not understand why you have a problem with the mere suggestion that this is not necessarily a case of reverse engineering.

I think this is getting a pointless argument. If this was a business deal and Iran got the blueprints, then it's much better since it would take much less time, money and energy. But the point is, countries don't easily give blueprints of their weapons to others, even in a deal. That's why I said it's not likely.

About Russian Shkval, yes they also sold it to Iran, that's why Iran was able to reverse engineer it.

 

[Siavash]

I think this is getting a pointless argument. If this was a business deal and Iran got the blueprints, then it's much better since it would take much less time, money and energy. But the point is, countries don't easily give blueprints of their weapons to others, even in a deal. That's why I said it's not likely.

About Russian Shkval, yes they also sold it to Iran, that's why Iran was able to reverse engineer it.

The Russian Shkval was sold with all the blue prints for manufacturing! That is not reverse engineering. At the time Russia needed the money more than the torpedo! Russians went for 2nd longer range version which Iran is also trying to do now.

 

[PeeD]

The use of a North Korean designation points to a license production or a direct import from NK imo. Otherwise it would be just called Valfajr-xx.

 

[Penguin]

I think this is getting a pointless argument. If this was a business deal and Iran got the blueprints, then it's much better since it would take much less time, money and energy. But the point is, countries don't easily give blueprints of their weapons to others, even in a deal. That's why I said it's not likely.

About Russian Shkval, yes they also sold it to Iran, that's why Iran was able to reverse engineer it.

I think that it the point, I am not in an argument (but you apparently are)

So, since Russia sold its Kilo class sub (likely including torpedoes), why 'settle' for reverse engineering a - by comparison likely inferior - NK torpedo? Has Iran purchased torpedoes from NK at all?

And the point remains, why reverse engineer when you can have direct access to specs and plans (its inefficient).

All I indicated is that reverse engineering need not be the case (so why assume it)

The Russian Shkval was sold with all the blue prints for manufacturing! That is not reverse engineering. At the time Russia needed the money more than the torpedo! Russians went for 2nd longer range version which Iran is also trying to do now.

Exactly, Skval originally is from the 1970s. Original versions are very limited in range (<10km) and unguided (relying on GOLIS autonomous inertial guidance = dead reckoning navigation).