Iran says planes ready for US flights

[Arminkh]

Excellent post sir.

Iran is one of the truly independent countries in the world.

I would argue that countries like South Korea would be rich anyway (same way my own city Hong Kong or cities like Shanghai/Beijing became advanced)... but.... South Korea is basically occupied by American troops.

Japan has their entire constitution written by Americans, which bars them from even having an army (they have "defence forces") and prevents them from modifying their own constitution with unnaturally high barriers, put in intentionally by the Americans who wrote it. It was meant to neuter them.

Now American troops run amok in Japan and South Korea, and commit crimes against the local populations (I'm sure you've seen the news regarding assaults against women) with very few consequences.

America has a problem with Russia now? Guess what happens?

Japan Announces New Russia Sanctions - WSJ

Even though Japan wanted to get closer to Russia before, they had no choice. America ordered it and that's the end of the story.

It's sad, because Japan could have EASILY become a great power in their own right, just like Iran can. Iran chose the independent road, which is why America is so afraid of them.

Thank you. Those are great examples of what I meant by being a "wealthy audience".

You are correct about Japan. I'm sure South Korea will also follow suit if not already!

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Thank you. Those are great examples of what I meant by being a "wealthy audience".

You are correct about Japan. I'm sure South Korea will also follow suit if not already!

Countries like South Korea, Japan and Iran can all become "great powers" in their own right. They all have this potential.

Iran has a harder road because they chose to be independent of American control. So you will face stumbling blocks on every path. But Iranians are fiercely independent people, I do not think they can EVER accept the idea of taking American orders.

 

[The SiLent crY]

I think the point that you are missing is exactly what you pointed out at the beginning of your comment. Where do we want to be in future? Me and you may not know but I think the current Iran Government (and even the one that was ousted), have and had a very good idea about what they want to be.

The path Iran was going 4 decades ago would take us to where South Korea is today (although I doubt our petroleum income would allow that) . A respectable country, with strong economy and welfare for their people. Everything about that is great but one thing: They have gained all these but lost one very important thing: Their free will in world affairs. Can you imagine one instance where US decides to do something and South Korea doesn't follow? Now you may say that it is because their interests align but I don't agree. There is no way that two country's interests (one from west and one from east) always align.

South Korea has become a wealthy audience in the worlds affairs (like Switzerland, Belgium,...). There is nothing wrong with that but it is not to Iranians' taste. Our experience during 17s, 18s, and 19s shows that being a passive player minding your own business doesn't end very well in this region. Others will ignore your sovereign, tear your territory apart, steal your wealth and etc. Iran wants a bigger share of the world income AND political affairs. And that doesn't sit well with the other big players because unlike world GDP, the political chess board is limited. More power for a player means less for the rest.

Iran's current path is that of USA's 18th century and China's 19th century. They went through everything that Iran is going through today. There will be bumps, there will be hardships. But if it survive, it will prevail as an independent world grade power that has its own say on world affairs. I'm sure there were US citizens back in the early days of their revolution that thought: All of this hardship for what? Independence my .....!

So in a nutshell, here is what makes people happy these days: All that which were supposed to be given to us 4 decades ago + maintaining our own free will in world affairs. Me and you may not enjoy the benefits of the second portion in our lifetime. But the future generations will.

You should read the opinion of those against the deal in west to understand. Here is a very good one if you are interested:

Iran Nuclear Agreement: Danger Ahead | National Review Online

I think you missed the point in first place my friend .

I'm not against IR at all but I'm against being played by the politicians who don't exactly know their purpose in first place rather than trying hard to win elections and remaining in power to show themselves as the good guys .

What you said in your comparison is not completely true , It could be 2 decades ago when the system was loyal to it's own claims but not now .

The free will you're speaking is nothing but a shadow from 80s , We left the west but instead have stuck the east and we're dependent to eastern powers to save our asses .

Please do not ignore how Iran is dependent to China and Russia's support against the west .

The same almost non existent free will can be seen in our relations with our allies , Lets see how we left Maliki to collapse , how we left Houthis to be slaughtered , How we left Syrians to reach where they are now and so on .

Whether you like it or not , we're not moving in the fictional direction you think about but acting like a confused child that don't know which way to go .

Moreover at time of shah only some cities of Iran like Tehran were partly thrived, but after revolution billions second/men works are done to thrive all cities and places of Iran. We did not have this huge impetus to thrive Iran at time of shah at all. Also at time of shah we were 30 millions but now we are 80 millions.
I can't agree that we accuse Islamic Republic for every bad event in this country. Iran have had good times at time of khatami and most time of Ahmadinejad.

Iran was America's most reliable and important ally in region alongside Israel and considering their plans for Iran , I can't agree with what you say .

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

I would argue that countries like South Korea would be rich anyway (same way my own city Hong Kong or cities like Shanghai/Beijing became advanced)... but.... South Korea is basically occupied by American troops.

Republic of Korea Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Republic of Korea Armed Forces is one of the largest standing armed forces in the world with a reported personnel strength of 3,600,000 in 2014 (630,000 active and 2,970,000 reserve)."

United States Forces Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"With 28,500 American soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines in South Korea,"


Don't you think you have taken the brainwashing of Asians that "white people" are to be looked up at a little too far??? There is no way 28,000 troops are occupying South Korea at a 20 to 1 disadvantage no matter how much of a "superman" you may think they are.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Republic of Korea Armed Forces - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Republic of Korea Armed Forces is one of the largest standing armed forces in the world with a reported personnel strength of 3,600,000 in 2014 (630,000 active and 2,970,000 reserve)."

United States Forces Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"With 28,500 American soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines in South Korea,"


Don't you think you have taken the brainwashing of Asians that "white people" are to be looked up at a little too far??? There is no way 28,000 troops are occupying South Korea no matter how much of a "superman" you may think they are.

Give me a break.

Why the Hell would South Koreans and Japanese want American soldiers permanently based on their soil, given the constant incidents of American soldiers raping young Japanese girls?

Does that sound like sovereignty to you? How about tens of thousands of Russian soldiers permanently stationed on American soil, committing crimes against American women, without any recourse?

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Give me a break.

Why the Hell would South Koreans and Japanese want American soldiers permanently based on their soil, given the constant incidents of American soldiers raping young Japanese girls?

Does that sound like sovereignty to you? How about Russian soldiers permanently stationed on American soil, committing crimes against American women, without any recourse?

All they have to do is ask us to leave..just like the Philippines and Taiwan...so far they haven't.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

All they have to do is ask us to leave..just like the Philippines and Taiwan...so far they haven't.

Tell me again, what sovereign country wants to have tens of thousands of foreign troops stationed permanently on their soil, committing crimes against the local population (like raping their women) without any recourse?

First let America host tens of thousands of Russian troops and let them commit crimes against your women without any recourse, then tell me you are not occupied.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Tell me again, what sovereign country wants to have tens of thousands of foreign troops stationed permanently on their soil, committing crimes against the local population (like raping their women) without any recourse?

First let America host tens of thousands of Russian troops and let them commit crimes against your women without any recourse, then tell me you are not occupied.

A country that has a big neighbor next door threatening them.

Keep in mind before the Korean War there wasn't 28,000 troops in South Korea. There was no need. If they were not invaded there would be NO troops there and they would be the happy sovereign state you like to talk about. So the U.S. isn't there because we threw a dart at a random spot on the map.

As for Japan...well they can toss us out tomorrow.

 

[Arminkh]

I think you missed the point in first place my friend .

I'm not against IR at all but I'm against being played by the politicians who don't exactly know their purpose in first place rather than trying hard to win elections and remain in power to show themselves as the good guys .

What you said in your comparison is not completely true , It could be 2 decades ago when the system was loyal to it's own claims but not now .

The free will you're speaking is nothing but a shadow from 80s , We left the west but instead have stuck the east and we're dependent to eastern powers to save our asses .

Please do not ignore how Iran is dependent to China and Russia's support against he west .

The same almost non existent free will can be seen in our relations with our allies , Lets see how we left Maliki to collapse , how we left Houthis to be slaughtered , How we left Syrians to reach where they are now and so on .

Whether you like it or not , we're not moving in the fictional direction you think about but acting like a confused child that don't know which way to go .



Iran was America's most reliable and important ally in region alongside Israel and considering their plans for Iran , I can't agree with what you say .

Only time will tell who is right here. I'm sure people would laugh at the idea of China becoming a super power back in 1940s.

Strategic thinking and free will are two separate things. Why Iran did what it did in case of Iraq, Yemen and Syria have very good strategic reasons that are off topic and need its own thread.

In case of China and Russia, I don't call trade, dependence. They were among the few countries that didn't exactly follow the US sanctions and didn't add their own sanctions on Iran. Where and how exactly did we rely on them for help? They didn't veto any of the UN resolutions against Iran (that was the minimum help they could offer in this stand off). And Russians didn't deliver the much needed S-300 system that we had already paid for and could at least give us some ease of mind in the face of daily air raid threats.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

A country that has a big neighbor next door threatening them.

Keep in mind before the Korean War there wasn't 28,000 troops in South Korea. There was no need. If they were not invaded there would be NO troops there and they would be the happy sovereign state you like to talk about. So the U.S. isn't there because we threw a dart at a random spot on the map.

As for Japan...well they can toss us out tomorrow.

There is no such thing as sovereignty when tens of thousands of foreign troops are permanently stationed on your soil, assaulting your women without any recourse.

South Korea can easily handle North Korea. Literally the only thing NK has going for it is nukes, and if they do end up nuking the Seoul Capital Area then it's over already, since the majority of South Korea's population lives in the Seoul Capital Area.

As for the Korean War, we all know how that went. If only America had listened to us when we said: "Do not apporach the Yalu river", then there might not even be a North Korea today, since the US + 16 of her allies (UN forces) had almost completely overrun NK by that point.

But you crossed the Red line and we had no other choice but to throw you out of NK completely. The result today is a South Korea with the majority of its population concentrated in their capital city right next to the border with North Korea, and a madman on the other side with nukes. And thousands of artillery pieces that might be able to take out Seoul even without using nukes.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

There is no such thing as sovereignty when tens of thousands of foreign troops are permanently stationed on your soil, assaulting your women without any recourse.

South Korea can easily handle North Korea. Literally the only thing NK has going for it is nukes, and if they do end up nuking the Seoul Capital Area then it's over already, since the majority of South Korea's population lives in the Seoul Capital Area.

As for the Korean War, we all know how that went. If only America had listened to us when we said: "Do not apporach the Yalu river", then there might not even be a North Korea today, since the US + 16 of her allies (UN forces) had almost completely overrun NK by that point.

But you crossed the Red line and we had no other choice but to throw you out of NK completely. The result today is a South Korea with the majority of its population concentrated in their capital city right next to the border with North Korea, and a madman on the other side with nukes. And thousands of artillery pieces that might be able to take out Seoul even without using nukes.

Well South Korea can also ask us to leave...nothing is stopping them.
It's not our fault they can't meet your "sovereign nation" definition.

Instead of asking me questions why don't you ask them?

 

[Arminkh]

Well South Korea can also ask us to leave...nothing is stopping them.
It's not our fault they can't meet your "sovereign nation" definition.

Instead of asking me questions why don't you ask them?

That is exactly our point.

Nobody said why US is doing it

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

That is exactly our point.

Nobody said why US is doing it

They obviously feel a security need..so people shouldn't be looking bewildered (and babbling about sovereignty) as to why they have foreign troops on their soil.

 

[The SiLent crY]

Only time will tell who is right here.

Sadly yes .

I'm sure people would laugh at the idea of China becoming a super power back in 1940s.

Comparing China with Iran is meaningless .

I don't know whether you live in Iran or not but this country has nothing common with China and the way Chinese people have been through .

After more than 4 decades , we have not gained much in most fields and are just a user nation that has survived because of oil , nothing more .

Strategic thinking and free will are two separate things

Of course ,

What sort of strategic thinking has led us to this situation in which our people celebrate for what they could have 4 decades ago without any price and above all losing several thousands of our youth which were results of the revolution ?!!!

Regarding the free will , Well free will is good and might be seen in some of IR's politics but as the time goes the costly free will you're defending is disappearing day by day .

We're more like a big useless mouth than a country with free will these days if you get my point , maybe calling it a heroic flexibility can cover things up !

In case of China and Russia, I don't call trade, dependence. They were among the few countries that didn't exactly follow the US sanctions and didn't add their own sanctions on Iran

You're neglecting the fact that IR has bribed them for decades silently and that's not much different than what the big belly Arab leaders are doing for the west to support them or sometimes ignore what they do .

Bribing China has ended up in destruction of the industry , production , etc and this has led millions of educated youth to unemployment which is one of the main roots of screwing the society and poisoning it .

This is honest about Russia as well , Haven't we ignored our rights in Caspian Sea in order to keep Russians happy ?

Haven't we ignored their betrayals in nuclear energy , overhauling the Air crafts , S300 contracts , and etc ?

Where and how exactly did we rely on them for help?

We rely on them to give us technology and equipments plus supporting us against the west in the world . They're after all 2 important super powers that we need to be on our side the same way Saudis and other Arab states need their western counterparts .

They didn't veto any of the UN resolutions against Iran (that was the minimum help they could offer in this stand off). And Russians didn't deliver the much needed S-300 system that we had already paid for and could at least give us some ease of mind in the face of daily air raid threats.

They didn't , because they weren't in a position to do so as they weren't powerful enough to face the consequences but they have always been supportive .

Your problem is that , You think Iran is an official puppet state like for example Bahrain is for the US but that's wrong otherwise I wouldn't say there was still shadows of the free will in IR .

This is true that we're dependent to them otherwise IR would have collapsed under sanctions .


All I say is that , We can not keep this confused policy forever . If we're against the west so be it and if we want to be friendly , let's end the God damn claims and anti western view and ideology once and forever .

Its enough , Playing people is enough .

I don't want to see another government with Ahmadinejad policy after 6 years and another one like Rouhani after him .

 

[Hack-Hook]

There is no such thing as sovereignty when tens of thousands of foreign troops are permanently stationed on your soil, assaulting your women without any recourse.

South Korea can easily handle North Korea. Literally the only thing NK has going for it is nukes, and if they do end up nuking the Seoul Capital Area then it's over already, since the majority of South Korea's population lives in the Seoul Capital Area.

As for the Korean War, we all know how that went. If only America had listened to us when we said: "Do not apporach the Yalu river", then there might not even be a North Korea today, since the US + 16 of her allies (UN forces) had almost completely overrun NK by that point.

But you crossed the Red line and we had no other choice but to throw you out of NK completely. The result today is a South Korea with the majority of its population concentrated in their capital city right next to the border with North Korea, and a madman on the other side with nukes. And thousands of artillery pieces that might be able to take out Seoul even without using nukes.

I wont think nort korea nuke can help them if they nume seoul what will they achieve ? Killing 80-100 thousands civillian their nuke even is as not powerful as a ww2 nuke used in nagazaki. At most they can destroy a district nothing more and after that it will be slaughter I don't think south korea army stop till they killed the last of of north army and maybe even their families.
More importantly the siuth may have a bomb but does that bomb can be delivered by anything they have access to.

I believe the most damaging thing north korea poses is their arthilery and the fact that seol is in range .and that artillery force take several hours to get destroyed even south korea and US 7th fleet premptivly attack notth and in those hours the casualties can be millions in dense city like Seoul. And the city will be like dresden after the bombings at ww2.