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Iqbaliat

Dear members, I will post a piece from his works, I hope we can have a discussion try and understand what Iqbal may have wanted to say.

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To Mods: How about making this one sticky ?

Members: Please do not post more poetry, do discuss the one posted, and once we are exhausted we can post more poetry.

Just to keep every thing organized.
 
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Dear members, I will post a piece from his works, I hope we can have a discussion try and understand what Iqbal may have wanted to say.

8-1.gif


8-2.gif



To Mods: How about making this one sticky ?

Members: Please do not post more poetry, do discuss the one posted, and once we are exhausted we can post more poetry.

Just to keep every thing organized.


Good poem. Thanks. I agree this should be made sticky.

First: Siaqo Sabaq (context of this poem)
This poem comes from his collection called "Armaghan-e-Hijaz" or the "Gift of Hijaz". Hijaz is the land of Makka Medina of modern day Saudi, that stretches form north down to Yemeni border along red sea coast.

Makka is at the foothills of mountains 6000 feet high.

While Makka bakes in the desert heat, an hour and half from there (like Murree from Pindi), you will find Taif a city situated high in the mountains and thus cool in the summers,

Taif is the city where Mohammad pbuh went for spreading the word of Allah, but was beaten and stoned black and blue. That his shoes were filled with his own blood.

Then he said prayers at a spot not far from a big lake. I have personally seen the little unassuming mosque.


With this intro, let me go back to the poem,

It is ironic that Iqbal sahib has added this poem into the book titled with "Gifts from Saudi".

So what are the cultural/scientific gifts from Saudi today?

-- Wahabism, and Mullahism. Funding of terror in Pakistan and killing of anyone non-Wahabi.
-- The land of Hijaz has been dead scietnfically and intellectually for the last 1300+ years.
-- No scientific or philosophical discovery has come from this dark region
------- All research attributed to Muslim scientist was done at the fringes of Muslim empires, places that were farthest from Hijaz (1000s of miles away)

The reason?

Utter lack of open mindedness due to Hijaz geography and culture.

The rigid form of their religion is in fact the reflection of Beduin culture. And this culture prohibits the very direction that Iqbal is lamenting about in this poem,.


Read the first verse.

-- Some asks "Pakistanis" through a voice form the heavens.

--- Where the heck is your sense of research and your sense of discovery.


Well the answer is simple.

As long as we are following tribal ways be they from Saudi or from Afghanistan. We cannot go on the path of enlightenment, research and discovery. Not happening!

For research and discovery, we have to follow the path of Chinese, South Koreans, Germans, Japanese, and above all Americans. This by the way in Iqbal's time was England, Germany, France and America. But Iqbal refused to say it clearly in this poem. And this where I fault Iqbal for muddling up the message. He points to a problem, but he refuses to accept the solution in front of his very own eyes.

Iqba's hero, Goette was a German artistocrat.

Sure Goette did the philosophical work and wrote Rumi style poem like Faust.

But Goette also wrote a book on theory of light.

Goette had the largest collection of minerals from all across Europe.

What did Iqbal do to follow the footsteps of his hero?

He took faust and rumi and came home to Lahore.

Never in his life Iqbal tried to understand Goette's work on theory of light, or collect minerals from all across Punjab.

Never.

Not even by anyone from Islamia college Lahore (the college started by Anjuman Himayate Islam with Iqbal's efforts).


Iqbal did his work good or bad and is gone now.

What about us. We have the answer to his questions (in this poem) and we still have gone 1000 time worse and copied tribal and beduin ways in Pakistan.

And thus no discovery and no research.

Peace.
 
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One of Dr. Iqbal's favorite poem:

Bas Ke Dushwar Hai Har Kaam Ka Aasaan Hona
Aadmi Ko Bhi Mayassar Nahi Insaan Hona
Giryaa Chahe Hai Kharabi Mere Kashaane Ki
Dar-O-Deewar Se Tapke Hai Bayabaan Hona
Waye Deewangi-E-Shauq Ke Har Dum Mujh Ko
Aap Jana Udhar Aur Aap Hi Hairaan Hona
Ishrat-E-Qatal Ke Ahl-E-Tamanna Mat Pooch
Eid-E-Nazara Hai Shamsheer Ka Uriyaan Hona
Le Gaye Khaak Mai Hum Daag-E-Tamanna Aey Nishat
Tu Ho Aur Aap Ba’sad Rang-E-Gulistaan Hona
Ki Mere Qatal Ke Baad Us Ne Jafa Se Toba
Haye Is Zood Pashaiman Ka Pashaiman Hona
Haif Is Chaara’gar Kapre Ki Qismat Ghalib!
Jis Ki Qismat Mai Ho Aashiq Ka Girebaan Hona
- Ghalib
 
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@FaujHistorian

spoken like a historian; however I must disagree.

Iqbal was severely critical of west's values, systems. He found west's scientific progress, their traditions of learning highly admirable.

Several times he has criticized and admired "europe".

Now as for Hijaz, I think Iqbal is referring to ISLAM as the gift of Hijaz and from thereon he is trying to build an accusation for the modern Muslim.

I do agree that many of the ills we face today are due to the stubborn and closed attitude; what is strange is that Hijaz was more open to outsiders than the rest of modern day saudi arabia.

Because pilgrims always kept coming to Makkah and Madina, the culture there was more representative than the rest of the desert. These days we accuse the people of central saudi arabia ( Riyadh, Qaseem ) of being not so open. Whereas the people of Jeddah, Madina and the eastern province are far more friendly and more open than others.

I would like to discuss the role of Imam Ghazali in all this.

What are your thoughts on his interpertations ?
 
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@FaujHistorian

1.
spoken like a historian; however I must disagree.

2.
Iqbal was severely critical of west's values, systems. He found west's scientific progress, their traditions of learning highly admirable.

Several times he has criticized and admired "europe".

3.
Now as for Hijaz, I think Iqbal is referring to ISLAM as the gift of Hijaz and from thereon he is trying to build an accusation for the modern Muslim.

4.
I do agree that many of the ills we face today are due to the stubborn and closed attitude; what is strange is that Hijaz was more open to outsiders than the rest of modern day saudi arabia.

Because pilgrims always kept coming to Makkah and Madina, the culture there was more representative than the rest of the desert. These days we accuse the people of central saudi arabia ( Riyadh, Qaseem ) of being not so open. Whereas the people of Jeddah, Madina and the eastern province are far more friendly and more open than others.

5.

I would like to discuss the role of Imam Ghazali in all this.

What are your thoughts on his interpertations ?


1. Thanks. And it is OK if we disagree on certain things.

2. I think Sir Syed was much more clear about contemporary Europe, compared to Iqbal. While Iqbal had much deeper appreciation of Eastern thoughts and philosophies. But unfortunately he muddled the analysis. Perhaps Iqbal was afraid of Mullahs to some degree and this is why he didn't want to come out stronger against the depravity among Islamic thoughts.


3. Yes. the book's title does mean what you say but I was focused (as per your/op suggestion) on the specific poem "Awaz-e-Ghaib".

4. Sure Hijaz was a bit more exposed compared to those even darker central parts. But it was like "Andhon main kaana raja" one-eyed is kind among the blind.

Soon after Mohammad pbuh death (give and take few Khalifas), Hijaz turned back into same old paganism but this time in the name of Islam.

And it has remained in the same "scientific" darkness since then.

Credit goes to current regime in Saudi for educating young men and women in modern schooling. But this is just a first step. It may take decades more (if not centuries) for these young Saudis to reach the pinnacle of scientific discoveries.

5. I am with Ibn-Rushd when it comes to Ghazali's approach. However I must say both Rushd and Ghazalis are obsolete now in many ways. Sure we should keep them in museums and books. But they existed 1000 years ago. From modern science and its breakneck speed of discoveries, 1000 years is equivalent in many ways to the dinosaur era. So Ghazali is totally irrelevant from scientific pov.

FYI. for current thoughts, Dicey, Adam Smith, Hobson, Thomas Kuhn, Einstein etc. are much more important for all of us. But then by mentioning European philosophers here, I am refuting Ghazali anyways.


peace.
 
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I am with Ibn-Rushd when it comes to Ghazali's approach. However I must say both Rushd and Ghazalis are obsolete now in many ways. Sure we should keep them in museums and books. But they existed 1000 years ago. From modern science and its breakneck speed of discoveries, 1000 years is equivalent in many ways to the dinosaur era. So Ghazali is totally irrelevant from scientific pov.

For a large part, i held Ghazali responsible for many ills that we face today; it was only in my later years I have learned to respect the reasons which might have led to his opposition to ibn rushd's line of thought.

None the less, Ibn Rushd proposed philosophy, he proposed logic over blank belief, deduction over indoctrination.

This in essence is what is wrong with today's muslim.

now, in the poem when Iqbal talk about lack of self reflection, research and love of wordly things, I think he is summing up modern muslim society

1. Affluence
2. Lack of education
3. Lack of reasoning and / or acceptance by society in large to reasoning.

Eventually Iqbal is concluding by hinting at the "sufi & Peer / Mullah" system.

Islam was always about, man and God, and nothing in between.

Unfortunately throughout history post Islam and pre Islam, men have sought to interject themselves between another man and God.

Be that in the form of a Rabi, a pope or a mullah.

Which has led to religious mutations all towards self interest on an individual rather than humanity.
 
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My dear iqbal(r.a) God give u jannat-ul-firdous! Thankyou for giving us a greater sense of muslim ummat!

My dear iqbal(r.a) God give u jannat-ul-firdous! Thankyou for giving us a greater sense of muslim ummat!
 
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@salman108 Do you want me to merge it with an already existing thread called "Iqbaliat", hopefully it will reach a huge volume big enough for it to be stuck?
 
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I had hoped there will be more people coming to discuss and maybe learn from mutual discussion.
@FaujHistorian what do you think ?
 
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Words of wisdom still relevant to this day...

0.GIF

1.GIF

2.GIF

3.GIF


Islam

The fire and light of ego both, The soul of Muslims together bind;
The fire of self is light for life: Godʹs existence brings before the mind.

It fortifies the things of life, It is the cause of all display:
Though Nature always hides this soul from eyes of mankind far away.

If Muslim Faith offends the West, Let West in its own anger burn:
This faith is known by other name, To ʹJealous Faqrʹ now we must turn.
 
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