What's new

Invented Countries

AgNoStiC MuSliM

ADVISORS
Joined
Jul 11, 2007
Messages
25,259
Reaction score
87
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Invented countries —Feisal Naqvi

The human capacity for differentiation is unlimited. Some unions last. Some don’t. In the end, the only judgement is that of history

All countries are invented. Some are just more invented than others.

Pakistan has been an independent country now for more than six decades. But every independence day, and this one was no different, is marked by a peculiarly morbid public discourse in which various talking heads either lecture us for going astray from our roots (and not emulating the Taliban) or else try and tap dance around their barely conceived belief that there is no particularly good reason for this country to exist.

My first answer is, and I apologise in advance for the profanity, who gives a damn?

My second, and more elaborate answer, is that we do not need to rationalise Pakistan. It exists. It is a fact of life. It does not need to be made part of a larger scheme of things. In any event, Pakistan is not any more intellectually conflicted or less predestined to exist than any other country.

Start from the point that the fundamental unit of human society is, duh, the human. With the exception of identical twins, all human beings are unique. So, whenever any two human beings decide to live together, they do so on the basis of a shared rationale. That rationale may be simple (a decreased likelihood of being eaten by sabre-toothed tigers) or it may be complex (life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) but it is always a human construct. Which is to say, an arbitrary construct. And within the realm of arbitrary constructs, there is no discernible line dividing unions which succeed from those doomed to failure.

Take, for example, our perennial point of comparison, India. Churchill once said that, “India is a geographical term. It is no more a country than the Equator.” Churchill was absolutely correct, but only in an entirely trivial sense. Great Britain, for that matter, is equally a geographical term. The fact that it exists as a unified political entity has more to do with the vagaries of history than any predisposition towards unity amongst the Scots, the Celts, the Anglo-Saxons and their Norman invaders.

Perhaps the point becomes clearer when one looks at smaller unions. For most people, the first collective entity with which they identify is their immediate family. But families fight. Brother can turn against brother for the most trivial of reasons.

The same problem is visible when one looks at larger groups like “nations”. From the vantage point of Condoleezza Rice’s office, all the people of the NWFP look like one undifferentiated hostile mass.

Look more closely and those same people dissolve into Pashtuns, Balochis, Dards, Hunzakuts, Hindkowans and a host of other groups.

Focus on the Pashtuns and one learns that they are divided into four tribal confederacies, the Sarbani, the Batani, Ghourghushti and the Karlani.

The Karlani, in turn, are made up of eight tribes: Afridis, Waziris, Mahsuds, Khattaks, Tanolis, Orakzais, Dawars and Bangash.

And the Afridis, to take just one tribe, have a further eight sub-tribes, each of which is divided into clans, divisions, sub-divisions, sections of sub-divisions and what Wikipedia helpfully refers to as “minor fractions”.

The simple point being made here is that the human capacity for differentiation is unlimited. Some unions last. Some don’t. In the end, the only judgement is that of history.

Of course, while we wait for history to pronounce its verdict, there is an immediate problem to be addressed: how to hold together a nation of 170 million contentious souls?

The answer to that problem begins with the realisation that people differ, that people have always differed, and that people will always continue to differ. Once that fundamental principle is accepted, the quest to find the “one right answer” on which everybody can or should agree stands revealed as a fool’s errand.

Instead, the simpler way to proceed is to divide the search for a national ideology into two separate parts. The first part is the identification of the boundaries within which debate can take place. The second part is the search for a consensus on a particular issue within those boundaries.

So far as the first part is concerned, the answer is that we have already achieved that goal. The permissible boundaries of discourse are already settled by the Constitution of 1973. Battered and bruised that document may be, but there can be no doubt that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s greatest achievement remains the undisputed source of legitimate authority.

We come then to the second part. The answer here is that it doesn’t matter whether we agree or disagree; all that matters is that we agree on how to disagree. There is also no shame in acknowledging the fact that whatever answer emerges at this stage will be an arbitrary construct, liable to be reversed by the next regime.

All countries, as already noted, are invented. The successful ones are those which allow themselves to be re-invented.

The writer is an advocate and can be reached at laalshah@gmail.com. An archive of his previous columns can be found at monsoonfrog.wordpress.com

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
-------------------

Posted without comment - except that I agree with most of his points.
 
Last edited:
.
And here comes Winston Churchill - Racist, Colonialist, "Expert" historian and hero to a million Britons.

BTW....wasn't Daily Times a RAW deal? Or was than Dawn?
 
.
A very well thought out article. Having said that, I would, however, have to disagree with the basic premise of Pakistan just existing. We, in Pakistan, have not allowed ourselves to properly discourse on the reasons for our being. At this point, we blindly believe that the ideology of Pakistan is merely that of Islam. We need to question this as this ideology appears to have sprung up in the 1960s and overtakes that of Jinnah's. The bibliography on that assertion is an essay by Pervez Hoodhboy. If anyone wants it, I can e-mail it.

The reason that I feel such a discourse is necessary is because where a population accepts and agrees to the ideology of Islam as a raison d'etre, then the nation can only sink, over time, into the quagmire of religiosity with the consequences that extremist groups will rise and have the sympathy of the people, that society will become more and more rigid to the point of intolerance to any minority groups, I include Shias here.

I, for one, do not, for even a moment, believe that Jinnah was thinking of establishing a Muslim state. If I can venture a guess here, I think that what Jinnah was trying to accomplish was exactly the opposite. You see, after a hundred and fifty years of forced categorization on the lines of religion alone (made so by the British) and the rise of a nation-state democratic structure wherein majorities and minorities in South Asia had been established on the grounds of religion, Jinnah was fighting against such distinctions. He did not believe in Congress's embrace of the religious divide but, instead, believed that sovereignty would transcend such a divide.

Anyway, I may be wrong.

On the point of history being the great arbitrator, let me leave you with this quote from Iqbal,

"Na samjho gai tau mit jao gai aye Hindustan walo: Tumhari daastan tuk bhi na ho gi dastaanoon mein." (If you fail to come to your senses, O people of Hindustan, history will carry not even a reference to the fact that you once existed.)
 
.
i greately liked the article, thts the true fact, if the nations r started to be formed on the basis of race than it will never ever be justified, and u gave the reason.

bro syed said, "where a population accepts and agrees to the ideology of Islam as a raison d'etre, then the nation can only sink, over time, into the quagmire of religiosity with the consequences that extremist groups will rise and have the sympathy of the people, that society will become more and more rigid to the point of intolerance to any minority groups, I include Shias here."

brother, where u find islam supporting the concept of "religious discremination", islam wants to bring all religions in harmony so tht all ppl regardless of their faith live together peacefully, islam is not the religion of convulsion, it never encourages a muslim to force his faith on non-muslims, it is good if we stick to islam, bc islam has solution to all humanity, whether be thr equal rights of minorities to their active participation in the state, islam totally supports their freedom.

v can bring our modern world and our modern concepts of life agreeable with quran, by following it, i dont hesitate by giving the fact tht it was islam and quran "which gave the modern concept of living where the for the first tym, merit n righteousness was declared as the source of gaining superiority and all nations were unified under one concept disregarding race and equality was established as the basic principle of humanity.
 
.
Few will disagree that all countries are CREATED -- Here the element of Will and Leadership are not sufficiently examined by the author.

Some Unions last and others don't -- that's a rather a strong statement, yet the author does not elaborate and does not seek comparisons that may have some relevance to the dynamic in Pakistan - Why do some unions last? Why have some not lasted?? What has been the role of Will and Leadership in the success or failure of such unions?? Lincoln, Garibaldi -- the will to prevail.

The author is also somewhat confused or at least not clear about "re-inventing" - If the constitution of 1973 is to be a "holy cow" what is this talk of "re-inventing"?

Perhaps we may take as a starting point the re-inventing" that France engaged in to find political balance.

The only re-inventing Pakistan need are the balancing of politics. The constitution of 1973 has a major deficiency, it actually promotes political imbalance, it rewards politicians and political parties and movments that are willing to play spoiler.

If, for some the 1973 constitution came from Sinai, then so be it, but surely it can be reexamined with the lens of new needs in new circumstances witha view towards rewarding political behaviour witin rules and punishing that behaviour that is outside the rule.

Today, Pakistan is a helpless giant, it is increasingly percieved as a union of four seperate countries -- Yugoslavia, comes to mind, readers are invited to consider that implications of such a perception and to examine anew the role of will and leadership.

Has anyone read "Germs Guns and Steel" by J. Diamond? The chapter How China came to be China, is insteresting in the light of this discussion -- History has multiple judgements on the first emperor, but the legacy of his will and leadership has survived and thrived for thousands of years and will continue, I for one hope, for thousands more.

Lead and the world will follow -- it does not have any other choice however it must be LED!!
 
Last edited:
.
I have seen this guy who made this thread, only use his time to post anti-pak news and speaks for Pakistan in a derogatory manner. Thus, he is a moderator here, spreading confusions. Can someone please check over him or are these forums over-taken by anti-pak mobsters.
 
. .
pakistan is the only invented country in south asia :azn:

Pakistan is one of the invented countries in South Asia.

There I fixed that for you.

The biggest invented country on earth is India.
What do all Indians have in common? You don't speak the same language, you don't eat the same food, you don't have the same culture.
Some parts of India feels like England while other parts feel like Mongolia.
The only thing that hold India together is the artificial construct know as the "Indian state"

Pakistan has more things unifying it then India does. We have the same religion, the same culture, the same language (everyone can speak urdu), and of course the same history.
 
.
Pakistan is one of the invented countries in South Asia.

There I fixed that for you.

The biggest invented country on earth is India.
What do all Indians have in common? You don't speak the same language, you don't eat the same food, you don't have the same culture.
Some parts of India feels like England while other parts feel like Mongolia.
The only thing that hold India together is the artificial construct know as the "Indian state"

Pakistan has more things unifying it then India does. We have the same religion, the same culture, the same language (everyone can speak urdu), and of course the same history.

And who says the parameters specified above are necessary for the definition of a nation? Unless the definition is xenophobic, diversity is very much an essence of every vibrant nation - just that are blessed more than others. If people begrudge and envy that, some would take that as a compliment.
 
.
And who says the parameters specified above are necessary for the definition of a nation? Unless the definition is xenophobic, diversity is very much an essence of every vibrant nation - just that are blessed more than others. If people begrudge and envy that, some would take that as a compliment.


okay, lets say I agree with you
Then why do you people say that Pakistan is an "invented country"

Simply being a bigot and hating a country and it's people does not make a country an "invented country"
Would you not agree?
 
. .
okay, lets say I agree with you
Then why do you people say that Pakistan is an "invented country"

Simply being a bigot and hating a country and it's people does not make a country an "invented country"
Would you not agree?

Bro , i think he was being sarcastic. The point is , all countries are invented in one way or the other. I'm sure all Pakistanis are not the same. Maybe if the British hadn't come and the whole partition thing hadn't happened , India and Pakistan would both probably not exist and in their place , many small independent states would exist. If the British hadn't crossed the atlantic and landed in North America , probably you wouldn't see the USA and in place , it would ruled by many native tribes fighting each other for supremacy
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom