Interfaith marriages

[Proud to be Pakistani]

well that's forceful conversion IMO;if she converted solely due to marriage.

Not rightly put ........... Don't want to comment since this can only be answered by her, as my request was only to do it if you can.

 

[aryan2007]

On the flip side interfaith marriages occurring between Muslims will not really lead to bridging divides since the Muslim quite obviously is ready to break Islamic norms. It is my guess that such unions don't occur between practicing members of any faith.

I think most of the Urban Muslim families and "high caste" Muslims quite often practise marriage outside their religion for eg. many film stars, politicians etc. some insist on conversion in name for the Nikah others believe in civil union while I have not heard of actual conversion.
Closer to home.. one of my cousin uncle has married a muslim they are pretty happy..

The thing one it comes to muslim men marrying outside faith and muslim women not marrying outside their faith was propounded by some Sikhs earlier their logic was that when men marry outside their faith they help bring more converts and the women must not be allowed to marry outside the faith...
In Islam it could be more of a temporal reason rather than spiritual reason ostensibly, as most of the Sufi greats are in favour of Love as the basis of union...

On a personal level I think one must follow religion not as a crutch but as a guide there are certain things which are unavoidable and while certain are unavoidable and is more to do with the society one is living in...

With prosperity comes more social freedoms which Mullahs find unIslamic and which urban people find necessary.. It is my opinion that religion cannot and must not be forced and if a muslim marries outside onbe doesnt necessarily become a bad muslim.. let them practise their faith without forcing others... another example I can give is many rich Arabs marry young girls from Hyderabad and after a few months divorce them.. I think that is more unIslamic then say a Muslim women marrying a non Muslim for love..

I believe the Quran also says something similar that a judge of whether a person is muslim or not is upto God.. and that God is the most merciful....

my 2 cents hope not many are offended ;-)

 

[Awesome]

I think most of the Urban Muslim families and "high caste" Muslims quite often practise marriage outside their religion for eg. many film stars, politicians etc. some insist on conversion in name for the Nikah others believe in civil union while I have not heard of actual conversion.
Closer to home.. one of my cousin uncle has married a muslim they are pretty happy..

The thing one it comes to muslim men marrying outside faith and muslim women not marrying outside their faith was propounded by some Sikhs earlier their logic was that when men marry outside their faith they help bring more converts and the women must not be allowed to marry outside the faith...
In Islam it could be more of a temporal reason rather than spiritual reason ostensibly, as most of the Sufi greats are in favour of Love as the basis of union...

On a personal level I think one must follow religion not as a crutch but as a guide there are certain things which are unavoidable and while certain are unavoidable and is more to do with the society one is living in...

With prosperity comes more social freedoms which Mullahs find unIslamic and which urban people find necessary.. It is my opinion that religion cannot and must not be forced and if a muslim marries outside onbe doesnt necessarily become a bad muslim.. let them practise their faith without forcing others... another example I can give is many rich Arabs marry young girls from Hyderabad and after a few months divorce them.. I think that is more unIslamic then say a Muslim women marrying a non Muslim for love..

I believe the Quran also says something similar that a judge of whether a person is muslim or not is upto God.. and that God is the most merciful....

my 2 cents hope not many are offended ;-)

It is in fact something along the lines that all your actions should contribute towards the continuity of Islam. Some people have interpreted that as waging war for the sake of conquering people for Islam.

Now as a Muslim if you marry a non-Muslim (without the non-Muslims conversion), you're just impeding the continuity of Islam through you. Either that or you'll have a weird disjointed relationship with your significant other. Imagine if you had to compete with your spouse over what religion to indoctrinate your child with.

I see most such couples opting with "Let the child decide" attitude which is in fact the only thing left to do. However in Islam it is obligatory upon you to start indoctrinating the child with Islamic values at the most after the age of 7 (prayer becomes mandatory).

It's not just Islam. You can't be a Christian and a Muslim together as you can't be a Christian who doesn't hold Jesus up as a God and you can't be a Muslim if you do.

Aryan movie stars subscribe to interfaith marriages because I really doubt they are practicing their faiths anyway. At least the Muslim ones. I see Indian Hindus filling up their movies with extremely rich Hindu traditions. Heck we commonly joke around in Pakistan that when Shahrukh releases a new movie he holds the Muhrat ceremony but not a Quran Khani (Bunch of people gather at one place and finish reading the Quran before the start of some big endeavor).

There are no such things as a high caste Muslim anyway. Although you'll find some social norms that have been formed which are similar to that.

 

[aryan2007]

It is in fact something along the lines that all your actions should contribute towards the continuity of Islam. Some people have interpreted that as waging war for the sake of conquering people for Islam.

I have been "taught" that Jihad is something which is not an external struggle.. but most Muslims will obviously reject me saying since I am not a Muslim..

anyways I believe that Islamic Jihad is more of an internal war something akin to what the Hindus call Dharam Yudh epoused beautifully in the Gita...and what the Sikhs also believe as an internal battle to conquer one's internal demons...

I mean on a very simple level Islam teaches one to be submissive to the will of Creator, to Worship him, and to perform good actions... I see Muslims today becoming very elaborate in practising ritualistic injunctions rather than seeing the meaning behind them... by keeping a beard you will become a Muslim ostensibly but internally??

It is akin to finding symbolic meaning rather than plain transliteration, one should introspect and contemplate rather than follow word-word translations.. you know what I mean.. many Muslims learn the Quran by heart even though they do not Arabic... though I believe reciting something as holy as the Quran is always benefic but what is the point if one does not contemplate, understand the gist of it....

Now as a Muslim if you marry a non-Muslim (without the non-Muslims conversion), you're just impeding the continuity of Islam through you. Either that or you'll have a weird disjointed relationship with your significant other. Imagine if you had to compete with your spouse over what religion to indoctrinate your child with.

What do you mean by continuity of Islam??
I think that all religions are correct... but not their followers..
I believe if one is a Muslim and that person cannot live in peace with his non muslim partner then there is a fault in the way that Muslim is practising Islam.. by being submissive to God, worshipping God and performing good actions are the cornerstone of Islam.. rest all other things are auxillary and temporal.. and I am personally convinced that if one doesnot follow the auxillaries yet follows the primary beliefs is a purer Muslim than one who follows auxillary but not the primary..

I see most such couples opting with "Let the child decide" attitude which is in fact the only thing left to do. However in Islam it is obligatory upon you to start indoctrinating the child with Islamic values at the most after the age of 7 (prayer becomes mandatory).

Prayers to God should be inculcated when one is 3-4 ... Praying is warranted.. but spreading hate is not.. I have never heard of Sufi greats killing non Muslims or discriminating against non Muslims yet they are respected by all.. you know what I mean.. I have never met a person who has to say an unkind word about Allah or the Prophet though about followers is another story ;-).. what do you consider a person who believes in one God, respects the Quran and Prophet but doesnot follow Islam?? a non Believer??

It's not just Islam. You can't be a Christian and a Muslim together as you can't be a Christian who doesn't hold Jesus up as a God and you can't be a Muslim if you do.

I think this decision one must introspect.. I think by being a good human being, submissive to the will of God, belief in Prophet, God and Quran and most importantly worshipping our maker.. is a better Muslim then some Mullah who can repeat the Quran verbatim, follows its injunctions and yet seeks to divide..

Aryan movie stars subscribe to interfaith marriages because I really doubt they are practicing their faiths anyway.

I think they are not practising all the injunctions laid in the Quran but the ultimate judge is not you nor me but God..

At least the Muslim ones. I see Indian Hindus filling up their movies with extremely rich Hindu traditions.

most of the customs shown in movies are Punjabi in origin.. a native of Maharashtra or SOuth India will have no idea about 'em...
95% of the film fraternity is Punjabi(Khatris and of Pakistani origin) or Pathan Muslims(of Afghan origin)...

Heck we commonly joke around in Pakistan that when Shahrukh releases a new movie he holds the Muhrat ceremony but not a Quran Khani (Bunch of people gather at one place and finish reading the Quran before the start of some big endeavor).

Well SRK reportedly goes to the Ajmer Dargah to get his prints blessed...
anyways after his tragic early life I think he has done well to keep up his faith in God.. + there are some traditional things of the Bollywood I think muhurat and stuff...

There are no such things as a high caste Muslim anyway. Although you'll find some social norms that have been formed which are similar to that.

well I disagree. ashraful, alzaf.. + sayid, pathan, sheikh, ansari, etc.. there are sub divisions..akin to the caste system.. how many non Jatt muslims have married jatt muslims for instance ?? or how many pathans have married ansaris???

again what I wish to reiterate is one should also seek to find out the symbolic meaning of the Quranic verses...

 

[Spring Onion]

well I disagree. ashraful, alzaf.. + sayid, pathan, sheikh, ansari, etc.. there are sub divisions..akin to the caste system.. how many non Jatt muslims have married jatt muslims for instance ?? or how many pathans have married ansaris???

again what I wish to reiterate is one should also seek to find out the symbolic meaning of the Quranic verses...

Aryan I agree with most of the comments of yours in the above post but I what caught my attention of the words ashraful or alzaf or words like syed, pathan etc and your terming this as akin to cast system.
Earlier Sir Ray tried to distract people here by saying that there is cast system in Islam than let me clarify there is no Cast System in Islam unlike Hinduism.
Words like Syed, pathan, sheikh, ansari etc are are surnames and do not represent casts as there is no Cast system in Islam.

Allah in the Quran says

Surah Hujarat
Chapter No 49
Verse No 13

"O ye Mankind we have created you all from a pair and divided you in tribes so that you can recognize each others and not to have any preference over each other. For only those are good in the eyes of Allah who follow Takwa(right path)."

 

[aryan2007]

Aryan I agree with most of the comments of yours in the above post but I what caught my attention of the words ashraful or alzaf or words like syed, pathan etc and your terming this as akin to cast system.
Earlier Sir Ray tried to distract people here by saying that there is cast system in Islam than let me clarify there is no Cast System in Islam unlike Hinduism.
Words like Syed, pathan, sheikh, ansari etc are are surnames and do not represent casts as there is no Cast system in Islam.

Allah in the Quran says

Surah Hujarat
Chapter No 49
Verse No 13

"O ye Mankind we have created you all from a pair and divided you in tribes so that you can recognize each others and not to have any preference over each other. For only those are good in the eyes of Allah who follow Takwa(right path)."

I am sorry what I meant was that Islam as it is practiced by the Indian Subcontinent muslims definetly has a caste system type classification though Islam as you mentioned is against any classification...

For example take Pakistan.. you have the Sunni Shia Wahabi classification then you have tha Pathan Baloch Sheikh Jatt Rajput classification .. and I don't think for example a Jatt Muslim marrying a Mirasi Muslims?? I mean there is no absolute Hindu caste system of discrimination but there are certain elements like division non intermarriage etc. similar to the Hindu class system being practised by the muslims though it is decidely unIslamic..

For example the Sikhs are supposed to have no class distinction but in rural Punjab some of the worst discrimination against low castes takes place.. which is very unSikh like and a big blot on Sikhism... but such are the realities of life..

If you want I can post some academic sources on this decidely South Asian phenomenon..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Actually we, as the all knowing geniuses added (idolators) the Arabic word is mushrik. Note, if it was Kafir we could've understood that to be idolators and atheists as Kafirs reject Allah. But Mushrik on the other hand is someone who associates partners to God, which is common theme throughout Christianity and it's concept of Trinity.

Judaism too has some very questionable worshiping methods however to a lesser extent anyway, they reject Allah.

That is only a partial quote. The Quran starts off:

I believe this does give permission but if you note the language used it seems more like an exception to the norm to me. First of all it says "This day". Then it talks about concubines. It seems to me that this was declared to be the rules laid down upon people after a conquest.

Christians themselves struggle with the concept of trinity - its too simplistic to dismiss it as a simple "associating partners with God". Most Christian pastors I have conversed with describe it as "three different forms of ONE god", not multiple God's.

The argument that the Jews and Christians "reject Allah" cannot be taken as validation of shirk, which is commonly translated as Polytheism or "associating partners", and therefore is not justification of applying Surah 2:221 to them. Were the Quran really trying to forbid certain acts with all non-Muslims, then it would have been quite a bit more specific.

"This Day", in 5:5, can also simply refer to that "moment in Time" that the commandments were revealed. There is nothing in the preceding verses that indicates "conquest".

Why can the reference to "concubines" simply be a a command to not resort to actions considered reprehensible? Verse 5:5 complements verse 2:221 when looked at as considering Christians and Jews "people of the book" and allowing unions with them.

One quick point about your argument that the religion followed by the Jews and Christians is a "man made on", since they have "changed their books" etc. The same argument can be made about Islam as well - not that we have changed the Quran, but our interpretation of it is dependent upon "human translation and understanding", and it is that "human interpretation of Islam" that we follow. The translation and understanding of the ancient Arabic of the Quran is in no way fool proof, and Muslim scholars will admit that.

At the end of the day, only Allah knows who is a "believer" and who is not - stating you are Muslim and following the Quran is no guarantee of being a believer in Allah, and neither is stating you are a Christian or a Jew a guarantee that you are not.

 

[aryan2007]

Christians themselves struggle with the concept of trinity - its too simplistic to dismiss it as a simple "associating partners with God". Most Christian pastors I have conversed with describe it as "three different forms of ONE god", not multiple God's.

The argument that the Jews and Christians "reject Allah" cannot be taken as validation of shirk, which is commonly translated as Polytheism or "associating partners", and therefore is not justification of applying Surah 2:221 to them. Were the Quran really trying to forbid certain acts with all non-Muslims, then it would have been quite a bit more specific.

"This Day", in 5:5, can also simply refer to that "moment in Time" that the commandments were revealed. There is nothing in the preceding verses that indicates "conquest".

Why can the reference to "concubines" simply be a a command to not resort to actions considered reprehensible? Verse 5:5 complements verse 2:221 when looked at as considering Christians and Jews "people of the book" and allowing unions with them.

One quick point about your argument that the religion followed by the Jews and Christians is a "man made on", since they have "changed their books" etc. The same argument can be made about Islam as well - not that we have changed the Quran, but our interpretation of it is dependent upon "human translation and understanding", and it is that "human interpretation of Islam" that we follow. The translation and understanding of the ancient Arabic of the Quran is in no way fool proof, and Muslim scholars will admit that.

At the end of the day, only Allah knows who is a "believer" and who is not - stating you are Muslim and following the Quran is no guarantee of being a believer in Allah, and neither is stating you are a Christian or a Jew a guarantee that you are not.

very very well said...

 

[Awesome]

What do you mean by continuity of Islam??
I think that all religions are correct... but not their followers..
I believe if one is a Muslim and that person cannot live in peace with his non muslim partner then there is a fault in the way that Muslim is practising Islam.. by being submissive to God, worshipping God and performing good actions are the cornerstone of Islam.. rest all other things are auxillary and temporal.. and I am personally convinced that if one doesnot follow the auxillaries yet follows the primary beliefs is a purer Muslim than one who follows auxillary but not the primary..

Continuity refers to the continuation of the race and its practices. Core and peripheral. For the Muslims the Quran is the core and Hadiths may be considered peripheral.

By marrying amongst Muslims you are contributing towards this continuity and by marrying amongst others you're becoming an impediment.

Prayers to God should be inculcated when one is 3-4 ... Praying is warranted.. but spreading hate is not.. I have never heard of Sufi greats killing non Muslims or discriminating against non Muslims yet they are respected by all.. you know what I mean.. I have never met a person who has to say an unkind word about Allah or the Prophet though about followers is another story ;-).. what do you consider a person who believes in one God, respects the Quran and Prophet but doesnot follow Islam?? a non Believer??

It is not wise to teach your children how to hate, except maybe germs. Islam is more about correcting yourself rather than hating the 'sinners'. Of course there is that component too, but what you wish to focus upon is your choice.

To become a Muslim you have to have belief, not practices. To become a good Muslim you should be practicing. If you believe in the one God, all his Prophets and their books, you're a Muslim.

I think this decision one must introspect.. I think by being a good human being, submissive to the will of God, belief in Prophet, God and Quran and most importantly worshipping our maker.. is a better Muslim then some Mullah who can repeat the Quran verbatim, follows its injunctions and yet seeks to divide..

Then you are faced with the situation about a Mullah who doesn't seek to divide and preaches hate? He's even better! Lol.

No actually the educated amongst Muslims often repeat that its not our Place to declare people Kafir, Muslim, good Muslim, bad Muslim, as such wisdom is ascribed only to our understanding of Allah. To claim to match Allah's wisdom is also a sin.

I think they are not practising all the injunctions laid in the Quran but the ultimate judge is not you nor me but God..

Right.

most of the customs shown in movies are Punjabi in origin.. a native of Maharashtra or SOuth India will have no idea about 'em...
95% of the film fraternity is Punjabi(Khatris and of Pakistani origin) or Pathan Muslims(of Afghan origin)...

Being and practicing are two different things

Well SRK reportedly goes to the Ajmer Dargah to get his prints blessed...
anyways after his tragic early life I think he has done well to keep up his faith in God.. + there are some traditional things of the Bollywood I think muhurat and stuff...

Well it was just a joke. I don't know anything about him personally.

well I disagree. ashraful, alzaf.. + sayid, pathan, sheikh, ansari, etc.. there are sub divisions..akin to the caste system.. how many non Jatt muslims have married jatt muslims for instance ?? or how many pathans have married ansaris???

My caste supposedly puts me in the lineage of Abu Bakr As-Sadiq, the 1st Caliphate of Islam and someone whom the Prophet entrusted the legacy of Islam to (well that's debatable but the Sunnis believe that). Although God only knows the truth, some great ancestor of mine could've just liked him and took up his name.

That's a family lineage caste, with no bearing upon religion.

Only Muslims from South Asia even still talk about such things as they are heavily influenced by the Hindu culture.

again what I wish to reiterate is one should also seek to find out the symbolic meaning of the Quranic verses...

Islam after all is our humanly interpretation of the Quran. This interpretation often changes. The Quran however does not change. That is what the gentleman above meant when he said everything is defined 1400 years ago. It's not to be taken literally but in many ways the message was given 1400 years ago. Now you gotta understand it on your own. As time passes our understanding should grow, not stagnate.

 

[Awesome]

Christians themselves struggle with the concept of trinity - its too simplistic to dismiss it as a simple "associating partners with God". Most Christian pastors I have conversed with describe it as "three different forms of ONE god", not multiple God's.

The triune God theory is just leaving things vague and not self-questioning your beliefs for validation. The religion you follow must not be questionable. Islam explains trinity. Jesus son of Mary is a Prophet of Allah and the Holy Ghost is the Angel Gabriel entrusted with the duty of interfacing between God and all the Prophets.

Of course they may be vague about all other things but they are pretty adamant about Jesus being God. That is shirk.

The argument that the Jews and Christians "reject Allah" cannot be taken as validation of shirk, which is commonly translated as Polytheism or "associating partners", and therefore is not justification of applying Surah 2:221 to them. Were the Quran really trying to forbid certain acts with all non-Muslims, then it would have been quite a bit more specific.

As we have learned in todays world, the Jews and Christians both have questionable attributes and they ascribe partners to God.

In the book of Genesis, Man was created in the form of God.

Infact to tell you the truth. The Towrah as it exists today is not even their own original story. They have mixed it up with the Greek Gods. Just compare the story of the Nephilims with the Greek Titans.

And this connection doesn't end there. The Christians carried it on to reinvent Jesus in the image of Zeus, a son of God, born of virgin birth. Heck they look alike too!

Islam has always justified its existence, its purpose in this world, as bringing things back to the basics.

"This Day", in 5:5, can also simply refer to that "moment in Time" that the commandments were revealed. There is nothing in the preceding verses that indicates "conquest".

I tried finding the circumstances under which those lines were revealed. I must've read that somewhere to come to that conclusion. Range check till I find something.

Why can the reference to "concubines" simply be a a command to not resort to actions considered reprehensible? Verse 5:5 complements verse 2:221 when looked at as considering Christians and Jews "people of the book" and allowing unions with them.

Ditto.

One quick point about your argument that the religion followed by the Jews and Christians is a "man made on", since they have "changed their books" etc. The same argument can be made about Islam as well - not that we have changed the Quran, but our interpretation of it is dependent upon "human translation and understanding", and it is that "human interpretation of Islam" that we follow. The translation and understanding of the ancient Arabic of the Quran is in no way fool proof, and Muslim scholars will admit that.

True but the original message lives on. We have one of the first Qurans in our possession today in Turkey. Islam is nothing but our present day interpretation of the Quran. Interpretations might change but that's not our covenant with God. The Quran won't change.

At the end of the day, only Allah knows who is a "believer" and who is not - stating you are Muslim and following the Quran is no guarantee of being a believer in Allah, and neither is stating you are a Christian or a Jew a guarantee that you are not.

True, but we can always argue. At the end of the day human beings should be free to choose what they wish to. After all we are all going to our own graves.

 

[aryan2007]

Continuity refers to the continuation of the race and its practices.

Muslims are not a race... and segregation never significantly helps/impends propagation....

Core and peripheral. For the Muslims the Quran is the core and Hadiths may be considered peripheral.

I think for Muslim the Core is the submission and worship of the maker..
Quran is God's revealed teachings and not greater than God.. whether inferior is a philosophical discussion(God's teachings and God are distinct or not?) Hadiths I believe are interpretations of something divine.. and should be minutely scrutinised... and if it doesn't appeal to you don't follow it...

By marrying amongst Muslims you are contributing towards this continuity and by marrying amongst others you're becoming an impediment.

THis is a propagation of a "segragated" community of people called Muslims who believe in God and follow the Quran and a religion called Islam and who consider themselves as true believers/followers and who may necessarily not be considered true followers/believers of/in God by God himself..

I think marrying for love is an expression of our human love.. I think if God is considered the loving one why should we be not loving one's .. if God is merciful why should we not be merciful to fellow human beings.. if God doesnot discriminate amongst his children why should we?? if God exists everywhere and in a variety of guises why should we not bow our heads to all directions and in all places of worship??

All the 99 names as epoused in Islam and many more epoused elsewhere also seek to glorify God are in fact the qualities which God possesses and which we should also seek to follow.. since we are trying to identify with him in some way...

Our ultimate aim is to be devoted not scared into devotion to God and all impediments are man made.. Man's ultimate aim is not to appear to be a Muslim or a strict adherent to Quranic injunctions but actually to be a true Muslim which God likes..

I remember hearing very moving piece in which God said I forgive everything if you even for a moment in your life loved me.. this shows God's mercy.. and if you love someone.. he/she surely forgives your small mistakes..

Again for example if you commit theft or other heinous crime and if you go crying to your mother .. most chances are she will forgive you and her love and her motherly instincts will protect you .. now God's love for us greater than her's and so is God's mercy therefore I see no reason if as a muslim you go against Quranic injunction yet love God that you shall not be forgiven...

It is not wise to teach your children how to hate, except maybe germs. Islam is more about correcting yourself rather than hating the 'sinners'. Of course there is that component too, but what you wish to focus upon is your choice.

Teaching a Child to love something abstract is tougher than teaching a child to hate.. God as a concept is very tough for even adults to understand... I mean don't we still fight over religion concept of God??

If you hate someone don't you dream of them day in and day out instead of the people you love...

another simple example suppose if a person slaps you in public and bad mouths your whole day and night will be filled with takng revenge and you will side track your family whom you love for that.. and now if you have something like God instead of family then it is tougher.. no disrespect but love and devotion to God means every action thought word devoted to him... and if you devote yourself to him you can but help be compassionate, loving etc.. al l the adjectives with which we describe God.. since God then is acting through you...

anyways coming to teh point.. children lil' devils they pik up bad habits instantly... for example in a more distributed society the muslim kids can pick on others and vice versa as per their religion with parents teaching them nothing wrong..

To become a Muslim you have to have belief, not practices. To become a good Muslim you should be practicing. If you believe in the one God, all his Prophets and their books, you're a Muslim.

Practical knowledge is greater than theoretical knowledge no doubt..
I think this is a very simple definition, this makes you a muslim to men...
what about Muslim to God?? Lets go back to basics on this one.. by having four wives you don't become a true Muslim.. by wearing Purdah a women doesnot become a true Muslim.. but by submitting to the will of God and by being devoted to God and by performing good actions one becomes a true Muslim acc to me..
one whose heart melts at seeing suffering and helps the needy is better than a cold hearted person who says prayers 5 times a day... ethically religiously spiritualy humanely and morally don't you agree??

By marrying Quranic injunctions as many as possible which are auxillary with the primary pillars belief of Islam is ideal.. if you can't avoid taking interest is a but a small sin.. but if you claim to follow Islam yet have no love or devotion to God or in his name commit sins is the biggest sin..

Then you are faced with the situation about a Mullah who doesn't seek to divide and preaches hate? He's even better! Lol.

Something similarly to what a Sikh Religious man used to say.. do you want to become a Granthi(Sikh Religious Scholar) or a true Sikh(Disciple)?? Mullahs, Priest, Granthis, Pandits are needed for rituals and not for interpretations...

No actually the educated amongst Muslims often repeat that its not our Place to declare people Kafir, Muslim, good Muslim, bad Muslim, as such wisdom is ascribed only to our understanding of Allah. To claim to match Allah's wisdom is also a sin.
Being and practicing are two different things

I agree...

Well it was just a joke. I don't know anything about him personally.

Nor do I claim to know supposedly gay people personally ;-)...

My caste supposedly puts me in the lineage of Abu Bakr As-Sadiq, the 1st Caliphate of Islam and someone whom the Prophet entrusted the legacy of Islam to (well that's debatable but the Sunnis believe that). Although God only knows the truth, some great ancestor of mine could've just liked him and took up his name.

That's a family lineage caste, with no bearing upon religion.

Only Muslims from South Asia even still talk about such things as they are heavily influenced by the Hindu culture.

acc to some Caste system is again a wrongful interpretation an delibrately editing of Hindu scriptures by their custodians that is the Brahmins....

What I am again symbolically trying to explain is that for a Muslim .. Universal brotherhood is higher than say being a Ghazi.. yet more Muslims are trying to be Ghazis than uniting Muslims.. today look at Pakistan you have so many Madrasas.. an Islamic republic yet there are secratarian clashes .. Bangladesh was carved out(lets playdown the Indian role).. Arabs have a superiority complex.. persians don't get along with Arabs.. Sunni Shia Wahabi's etc.. So the priorities are wrong as well in Islam today.. I think better than implementing Shariat.. Muslims should seek to have a Universal Brotherhood.. not necesarily confined to Muslims but other believers and good human beings as well..

Islam after all is our humanly interpretation of the Quran. This interpretation often changes. The Quran however does not change. That is what the gentleman above meant when he said everything is defined 1400 years ago. It's not to be taken literally but in many ways the message was given 1400 years ago. Now you gotta understand it on your own. As time passes our understanding should grow, not stagnate.

I think Human interpretations will always have shortcomings.. one must rely upon interpretatiosn and symbolic meanings as described by people who are respected both inside and outside the community and whom you personally believe in and who are men of God... some one for example of the stature of Faridji etc.. a high pedestal no doubt..

I like the hindu concept in this way that there books literal intrepretations are much different from their implied intrepretations are taught only to the deserving.. so I believe that as a Muslim.. one must pray to God to give one right guidance and strength of discrimination to properly understand and follow the implied teachings of Quran after one has accomplished the primary goal of Islam...

I reminded of the famous quote Religion is the opium of the masses.... helps give expressions to our social needs.. and are inherent qualities of opposites.. love/hate... etc..

Again hope not ruffled too many feathers??

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

Alot have been discussed on the Topic but mostly of the Topic is going on.........

I am just looking at the views of all you people and i dont understand what each one of you wants other to understand or you all are trying to understand what you are telling yourself!

I would say that being a Muslim by Birth is nothing because Islam is a religion of Practice and not only Belief. Belief makes you understand the basic only but ones you believe in GOD and everything he has said in Holy Quran you are to accept every thing what has been said by him....

You are to practice Islam inorder to become a Good Muslim not by the standards of people but by the standards set by Holy prophet and a Good Muslim in the eyes of Allah...

On topic (Interfaith marriages).........

I would say that once i was a bad muslim with my standards of course, as i care not about what people think, you should know who and what you are... But what an Interfaith marriage did to me?.. I was always a good believer but with no practice...

But once you want to marry someone from other faith you would like to have her in the same faith as you are since this union of Man and Woman is not only bounded to them but in future contitutes a family which should be defined only by One Faith........ So the otion was to decide.. to do what you want or to do what you can not do but cant even live without... IF we see what ISLAM has been portrait like in the west for past decade, no one is going to accept Islam by viewing the Muslims as they are... Only believers with no Practice of Islam.. Doing everything what is not allowed or forbidden in Isalm but yet say that they are different from Christianity or Jewishism... The only way you can really argue with a non-muslim is to show by your example what true Islam is and what the teachings of Islam are...... People who have converted to Islam have stronger beliefs then us since they are studing Islam and grabbing the steachings with a belief that GOD has said what they listen or Understand from Quran.. I tried to change alot to make my life based on Isalmic Practices so that when you argue that Islam is the True religion the person listens to you because you not only believe in Islam but also practice Islam..

If you are a true practicing muslim i would say that Interfaith marriages will result in more conversions towards Islam and towards the truth that there is only One GOD and Muhammad (PBUH) is his Prophet. There is only one guidence in universe that is Holy Quran and the teachings of Prophet based on Quran and if you are a true Muslim with practice Heaven is for you and all the rest will burn in Hell what ever they think or do.

 

[aryan2007]

Alot have been discussed on the Topic but mostly of the Topic is going on.........

I am just looking at the views of all you people and i dont understand what each one of you wants other to understand or you all are trying to understand what you are telling yourself!

I would say that being a Muslim by Birth is nothing because Islam is a religion of Practice and not only Belief. Belief makes you understand the basic only but ones you believe in GOD and everything he has said in Holy Quran you are to accept every thing what has been said by him....

I disagree I think all these discussions are a good way to understand where eac of us are coming from...

If you don't have belief in God yet you say prayers 5 times a day follow all Quranic injunctions then you are not a true Muslim.. but if you have belief in God and even if devotedly pray once a month to him in my eyes you are better.. faith moves mountains.. faith + discrimination + practise makes one perfect as a muslim IMO...
weak belief + strong practise is at times recipe for disaster.. I am sure OBL considers his belief in Islam very strong but is it with discrimination??

Discrimination here means you pick out the primary objectives of you being a Muslim rest all others is for people who want a crutch in the form of a religion.. Everyone believes their religion is revealed and perfect yet follow different customs and social practises but in religion they are similar.. for eg.. faith in God, devotion to him, & good conduct. so by inference these are the primary and common goals of all religion how they achieve it are different..

You are to practice Islam inorder to become a Good Muslim not by the standards of people but by the standards set by Holy prophet and a Good Muslim in the eyes of Allah...

Holy prophet did not set standards.. the standards were revealed.. as I have said Standards are subjective.. God is not vindictive and if fellow human beings can understand your inability to do something I think our maker can be expected to be sympathetic as well.. By mechanically doing something when does not become good... These are only there for people who want something concrete.. why are their rituals etc. in all religion?? to help one focus by giving them guidelines to follow.. like ordering children to have uniforms in schools , maintain discipline etc.. ultimately the primary aim of the School is to educate you...

On topic (Interfaith marriages).........
I would say that once i was a bad muslim with my standards of course, as i care not about what people think, you should know who and what you are... But what an Interfaith marriage did to me?.. I was always a good believer but with no practice...

I think let God be a judge...

But once you want to marry someone from other faith you would like to have her in the same faith as you are since this union of Man and Woman is not only bounded to them but in future contitutes a family which should be defined only by One Faith........ So the otion was to decide.. to do what you want or to do what you can not do but cant even live without...

I think as agnostic_Muslim put it you fall in love with a person and not a body and that person is shaped by their beliefs.. so if you wish to marry for love you should let them be...

IF we see what ISLAM has been portrait like in the west for past decade, no one is going to accept Islam by viewing the Muslims as they are... Only believers with no Practice of Islam.. Doing everything what is not allowed or forbidden in Isalm but yet say that they are different from Christianity or Jewishism... The only way you can really argue with a non-muslim is to show by your example what true Islam is and what the teachings of Islam are......

Au contraire.. these guys like the Taliban follow Shariat etc.. and can be considered more grounded in Islamic practises than an average Muslim... and yet these guys are responsible for the bad name and not an avg Muslim...
Fanaticism is wrong being Muslim is not...

People who have converted to Islam have stronger beliefs then us since they are studing Islam and grabbing the steachings with a belief that GOD has said what they listen or Understand from Quran..

I think there are a variety of reasons for their strong beliefs....
a. to prove detractors wrong
b. something missing in their lives
c. brainwashing ;-)
d. monetary benefits
e. actual belief
etc.

I think there is a sense of inertia and lackadaisical approach in people born in Muslim families and they always consider themselves superior Muslims... an Arab will ususally consider himself a superior Muslim to a non Arab etc...

I tried to change alot to make my life based on Isalmic Practices so that when you argue that Islam is the True religion the person listens to you because you not only believe in Islam but also practice Islam..

I think Islam is one of the many paths that lead to God... but whom would people listen more to, you or someone like ChistiSahab?? why is that.. because CHisitiSahab had achieved the primary objectives of Islam.. that is why.. PS:there are actually more non muslims making pilgrimage to his Dargah then Muslims..

If you are a true practicing muslim i would say that Interfaith marriages will result in more conversions towards Islam and towards the truth that there is only One GOD and Muhammad (PBUH) is his Prophet.

See this is your blind belief.. besides Muhammad I would believe there were many other messengers too simply because I don't think a God described as a Loving one or Most Merciful would not have cared for the spiritual belief of his other children?
I am saying is that if you strive for achieving the true goal set in Islam then such small transgressions are forgiven by the Most Merciful one..
If suppose you fall in love with someone yet she/you are not willing to convert what would you do??
Here do you follow the Quran's auxillary objective and leave her and set an example to the society and Chest thumpingly prove your devotion to Islam and cause heartbreak to her?? or do you marry her w/o any conversions and break one of the Quranic injunctions have a happy married life yet cause supposed heartburn to your conservative family members??
I think here if you have sound belief, discrimination and right practise..you will have enough grace of the Lord to correctly guide you else you will try to justify yourself by quoting either the Sufis if you marry her or the Quran if you don't marry her...

There is only one guidence in universe that is Holy Quran and the teachings of Prophet based on Quran and if you are a true Muslim with practice Heaven is for you and all the rest will burn in Hell what ever they think or do.

You have touched the core of the Muslim versus Rest "FIGHT"... I think this requires a seperate thread....
anyways ..
the rest includes all others?? I think as you sow so shall you reap.. your actions performed in this world send you to heaven or to hell... God unlike humans doesnt classify people.. and a judge of a True Muslim is God
and yet many people pray to God to not give them Heaven nor Hell but a place in his heart.. for they argue what is the pleasure in virgins or what pain is there torments of hell.. it is unimaginable to the pleasure in becoming one with him and the worst pain is being seperated from him...

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

the rest includes all others?? I think as you sow so shall you reap.. your actions performed in this world send you to heaven or to hell... God unlike humans doesnt classify people.. and a judge of a True Muslim is God
and yet many people pray to God to not give them Heaven nor Hell but a place in his heart.. for they argue what is the pleasure in virgins or what pain is there torments of hell.. it is unimaginable to the pleasure in becoming one with him and the worst pain is being seperated from him...

Here you go ............ You now understand what i meant .........

Belief will not do it ........ Only practice will

 

[aryan2007]

Here you go ............ You now understand what i meant .........

Belief will not do it ........ Only practice will

Ultimately any second spent on this earth is a seed we are sowing.. I mean is an action we are performing whether it is by our body, through our speech and/or via our thoughts.. and you will be punished or rewarded for it.. Every action has an opp. and equal reaction kinda thing...

Now if I tell you that by banging your head against the wall will make you smarter.. is a wrong belief and then what will practise do?? except giving you a massive head bump... but if you used discrimination you would realise that this is a wrong belief and this practise will result in a broken skull...

Belief is the most necessary component.. and if you truly have belief... practise will definetly follow.. and if that practise is followed with discrimination/intellect it is all the more better...

Belief/motivation is the cause of action... what you think shaped by your beliefs, what you do is shaped by your beliefs, what you say is shaped by your beliefs and what you practise is shaped by your beliefs.. and by adding discrimination and intellect in the mix you channel and refine your beleifs and consequently your practise....