What's new

INSAS Excalibur & MCIWS Ghatak Assault Rifles to Replace Indian Army's Standard Issue INSAS Rifles

@Chanakya's_Chant
From the link:
However, none of the firms which had pitched for the contract could satisfy the army with sources saying that the General Staff Qualitative Requirements “could well have been too ambitious”.

World renowned companies with decades of gun making experience could not satisfy the army but ADRE OFB can somehow.


There was no point on working on something that cannot be worked out,” the sources added. Quoted from your link.

Running around in circles these idiots.
1. Evaluate
2. Test
3. Decide and field

meanwhile

http://www.shephardmedia.com/news/landwarfareintl/australia-fields-new-rifle/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=defcon, mod, uk, defence calls, dstl, sbri, tsb, defence technology,
 
.
However, none of the firms which had pitched for the contract could satisfy the army with sources saying that the General Staff Qualitative Requirements “could well have been too ambitious”.

World renowned companies with decades of gun making experience could not satisfy the army but ADRE OFB can somehow.

The one being referred to is the Multi-Caliber tender whereas the new RFI will be for Single-Caliber Assault Rifles. ARDE ORB will field it's 5.56mm Excalibur/MIR which had only two stoppages (where the bullet gets stuck in the breech) after 24,000 rounds were fired, close to the Army's specifications of only one stoppage - so it has a good chance of being selected.

The GSQR's for multi-cals were indeed too ambitious - they fielded the same rifle in trails in Siachen where temperatures can be as low as -50°C as well as in Thar where temperatures can be as high as 55°C - needless to say how all of them failed in the trails.

One significant point to be kept in mind is Indian Army's capital budget limitations. In 2015-16, 80 per cent of its budget has been earmarked for revenue expenditure. The corresponding figures for the Navy and Air force are 38 and 41 per cent, respectively.

IT's obvious they can't replace all INSAS rifles with imported ones due to monetary constrains - they will have to bank upon indigenous solutions. Let's see how Excalibur performs in IA's field trails.
 
.
Israeli Weapons Industries (IWI)’s Galil ACE carbine did passed the CQB tests.


By Dilip Kumar Mekala

The need for the speedy procurement of the small arms systems for the infantry battalions has become extremely crucial for the Indian Army. With the growing external and internal security challenges, it remains a worrying factor that the Indian troops often go into the battle without self defence systems; a factor amply highlighted in numerous CAG reports. It is well-known that the Indian Army has been seeking replacement for Indian Small Arms System (INSAS) and needs new Multi Calibre Assault Rifles (MCAR), Close Quarter Battle carbine (CQB), Light Machine Gun (LMG) and Sniper rifles.

FORCE has accessed some details of the CQB carbine programme, the trials for which were concluded in 2014. Of the four competitors, apparently Israeli Weapons Industries (IWI)’s Galil ACE carbine was the only gun which passed all the tests. As transfer of technology was part of the programme requirements, it implied an automatic transfer of know-how with the signing of the contract. Hence, it would have meant that the carbines be produced locally without the need for any import.
A member of the trial team told FORCE, “All procedures were followed carefully and only Galil ACE carbine passed them.” The trials were conducted in three different places including Mhow in Madhya Pradesh and Leh in Jammu & Kashmir for the high altitude tests. Italy’s Beretta ARX-160, USA’s Colt’s M4 and Sig Sauer’s SG516 guns are competing along with IWI’s Galil ACE in this programme.

However, despite being the clear front runner, the defence ministry hasn’t been able to take any decision so far. With the coming of the Narendra Modi government, the competitors were asked to summit fresh commercial offers which were done a year ago. Sources confirm that IWI emerged the lowest bidder. Apparently, the complaints to the DGQA (Directorate General Quality and Assurance) by the competitors are causing these delays. Army is also apprehensive that a resulted single vendor situation may be the reason for government dithering on the issue. FORCE approached IWI for comments which were declined.

An industry source has indicated that IWI is currently negotiating with one of the largest private sector companies in India to establish production lines for small arms to meet the future requirement of the ‘Make-in-India’ policy.
 
.
The one being referred to is the Multi-Caliber tender whereas the new RFI will be for Single-Caliber Assault Rifles. ARDE ORB will field it's 5.56mm Excalibur/MIR which had only two stoppages (where the bullet gets stuck in the breech) after 24,000 rounds were fired, close to the Army's specifications of only one stoppage - so it has a good chance of being selected.
IT's obvious they can't replace all INSAS rifles with imported ones due to monetary constrains - they will have to bank upon indigenous solutions. Let's see how Excalibur performs in IA's field trails.

FORCE Magazine
"The DRDO/OFB Excalibur assault rifle is only an improved version of the INSAS and does not in any way meet the future requirements of the infantry. This upgraded version of the INSAS was demonstrated to me in 2011, at Rifle Factory Ishapore when I was the director general of infantry (DGI). There is very little to choose between the in-service 5.56 INSAS rifle and the upgraded Excalibur."

Lt Gen. Vinod Bhatia (retd) writes on the urgent need to modernise Indian Army's weaponry
 
.
Reasons for why the INSAS is such a failure -

1. It weighs over 4 kg without magazine. That is way too much weight for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

2. It carries a 20 round magazine which is again abnormal for a 5.56 caliber rifle. 30 round magazines are standard. The FN-FAL fires the more powerful 7.62x51 mm round, is of the same weight and carries the same number of rounds as the INSAS. So what was the point of replacing the FN-FAL?

3. It lacks suppression fire. It has no auto option.

4. It has poor ergonomics. A soldier has to free his hand from the grip to switch from safety, semi-auto, burst mode.

5. It has problem of jamming and double-feeding.

The INSAS is an obsolete and unwanted rifle that should have been abandoned years ago or better still never inducted at all. Some fan boys who have never seen a rifle in their life and other internet rambos who pretend to be from a military background but are not are offering laughable theories to whitewash the INSAS.

1. No professional army shoots to injure, every army trains its soldiers to shoot to kill. In combat is the soldier supposed to aim at the enemy's legs or his head?

2. The logic for 5.56 mm rounds was that it is lighter and hence produces a lower recoil thus improving accuracy. Plus it was now possible to stock 30 rounds in a magazine. It is not possible to auto fire 7.62x51 rounds because of recoil. A soldier can keep firing 5.56 rounds without physically straining himself, something not possible with the 7.62

3. The logic that a 30 round magazine is too long only highlights the lack of skill and qualification of Indian defence PSUs. Armies world over have the 30 round magazine as standard for 5.56 mm caliber. Only India has the distinction of fielding 20 round magazines for a 4kg weight 5.56 mm rifle.

4. The INSAS was a failure in Kargil war.

5. Painting the INSAS black does not mean its a new or better variant.
 
.
image.jpg


In Ukraine, will start production of a new generation «Maluk» automatic rifle | Defence blog


When will we learn ? @GURU DUTT
 
. .
Importantly
Key operations – unlocking firing, removing and replacing the magazine and reloading – to be done with a single hand.
Multi cal
 
.
NEW DELHI — After canceling a $1 billion 2011 global tender to buy assault rifles, the Indian Army will hold trials of the Indian-made Excalibur assault rifle — but analysts and Army officials said they doubt the rifle will go into production soon.

Defense analyst Rahul Bhonsle, a retired Army brigadier general, said the Ministry of Defence may eventually have to float a fresh tender in the Buy and Make (India) category for the assault rifles.

"At present, indigenous design capability for a next-generation assault rifle has not been demonstrated by the Defence Research and Development Organisation [DRDO]; what is in the pipeline is an improved homegrown Indian Small Arms System [INSAS]," Bhonsle said. "At the same time, the Army's inability to derive viable qualitative requirements [QRs] for the same is also one of the challenges faced by the DRDO. After evolving viable QRs, a Buy and Make in India may be a good option."

In 2011, the Indian Army floated a global tender for the purchase of 66,000 assault rifles, which included transfer of technology to the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). The tender was canceled in June because none of the competitors could meet the QRs, an MoD official said.

The competitors included Italian company Beretta, US company Cold Defense, Israel's Israel Weapon Industries, Switzerland's SIG Sauer and the Czech Republic's Ceska Zbrojovka.

The rifle would replace the INSAS 5.56mm assault rifles, which the Army has not found satisfactory. The INSAS has been used since the 1990s, though there have been Army complaints of technical failures. One complaint was that the inferior quality rounds had caused a number of guns to jam.

Arun Sahgal, director of The Forum for Strategic Initiative and a retired Army brigadier, said the Excalibur rifle could be pushed on the Indian Army. "As per inputs, this rifle does not meet critical standards but is being pushed by the Infantry Directorate and the hierarchy to cover up the mess they created in producing shoddy QR and an over-ambitious request for proposals."

On the testing of the homemade rifle, Sahgal said, " It appears that Army and OFB are on the same page as far as Excalibur is concerned, but testing agencies such as the Directorate General of Quality Assurance and other certifying agencies are resisting introduction of a sub-standard rifle. There is every likelihood of re-tendering with improved and more down-to-earth QRs, which I am told are being finalized."


But Anil Chait, a retired Army lieutenant general, is optimistic about the Excalibur rifle.

"The Excalibur is a 5.56mm rifle designed by the DRDO, and the prototype produced by the OFB, as reported, is presently undergoing testing," Chait said. "If found suitable in all respects, it has every prospect of becoming the next rifle for the Indian armed forces."

An Army official said the Excalibur is only a retrofitted version of the INSAS assault rifle.

"Assault rifles are to be used mainly in the counterterrorism role and requirements entail short barrel, short range, rapid automatic-burst fire with high reliability," Bhonsle said. "On the other hand, for conventional battles a long-range, accurate, semi-automatic or automatic weapon to ensure fire discipline with a higher lethality over ranges of 400 to 500 meters is necessary. Optical or night sights are also envisaged. Post-2011 tender, there appears to be a view in the Army after trials that the concept of having a single weapon for both roles is not feasible."



Indian Army To Test Indian Assault Rifle
 
. .
Reasons for why the INSAS is such a failure -

1. It weighs over 4 kg without magazine. That is way too much weight for a 5.56 caliber rifle.

2. It carries a 20 round magazine which is again abnormal for a 5.56 caliber rifle. 30 round magazines are standard. The FN-FAL fires the more powerful 7.62x51 mm round, is of the same weight and carries the same number of rounds as the INSAS. So what was the point of replacing the FN-FAL?

3. It lacks suppression fire. It has no auto option.

4. It has poor ergonomics. A soldier has to free his hand from the grip to switch from safety, semi-auto, burst mode.

5. It has problem of jamming and double-feeding.
It weighs about 0.7-0.8 kg more than the m-16. Pity, but not a disaster and 20 years back India was much weaker in terms of metallurgy and ceramics. Expect an updated version to be much lighter.

The m-16 rifle started off with a similar 20 round magazine, and worse problems with jamming and unreliability.

If there were issues with ergonomics and full auto the army always has the option to demand changes.

The INSAS was the very first rifle made and designed in India, and wasn't too bad. We have faced issues with many products that were imported, but somehow we demand that anything made indigenously must be absolutely perfect. Ridiculous.
 
. .
Let me tell you Very basic things .

A) in the 70's -80's , The IA dont want any automatic firing weapon. It want only single click fire Single Bullet.
Reason:- They dont wanna waste ammo as they have limited supply of bullets.

B) When INSAS was designing, Army want only Single OR Max 3 bullet it will able to Fire with full burst mode.
Reason : Short supply of Bullets in 80's , 90, and 20's
 
. .
In my opinion,full automatic fire on a service rifle is totally useless,the soldiers are strictly prohibited to fire on any setting,other than the semi auto.They are never taught to fire in full auto and are instructed to stick to it as much as possible.At least that's how things are in the Indian Army,can't say about others though.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom