Information Pool & Analysis on Pakistan's AF Aspiration for Su-35 / Su-35S - FLANKER-E

[volatile]

I know how hard it is to make reliable modern jet engines. I have visited General Electric facility. It is not a knock on Pakistan if they cannot make jet engines.

Yes true for Pakistan as well as many nations but in manufacturing there is a word called dont invent the wheel . So my guess is assembling is the first stage that we are pretty good at

 

[ghauri05]

PAF has not decided yet, what to do? what to buy?
Some time PAF buy Mirage 2000-9 from Qattar.
Other day PAF buy Eurofighter.
Now they are talking for SU 35.

PAF is wasting too much time
I have always wondered, that we are operating F-16s for almost 30 years...in those 30 years we have managed to aquire only 70+ aircrafts so far .
People always say that we are short on cash...if we start buying in small numbers we can maintain a fleet of 40-60 aircrafts in next 5-6 years ...like in a previous thread it was reported Pak is looking to buy 6 SU35..i know its a very small number...but we need to take a start right now n it will keep things moving in a certain direction and money will also be not a big problem....simply can't understand why PAF is so clueless about its acquisitions???

 

[war&peace]

In recent times, when PAF acquires an aircraft, it either makes a facility for maintenance/over haul of components or rebuild factory. Secondly, PAF slowly starts to increase the numbers. We have seen this with F-6, A-5, F-7P/PG, Mirage III/V and F-16.

If PAF goes for SU-35, it wont stop at 40, it will keep increasing the numbers at some later stage and probably make a facility for atleast components maintenance however the induction of any 5th gen aircraft may get delayed.

The shift is necessary and Su-35 will offer a great platform 4.5+ gen A/C both for PAF and PNs. PAF is nick of establishing excellent maintenance facilities and so the same will be applied to Su-35 and PAF engineers were able to extend the MTBH for falcons, they will be able to do the same for Su-35s. 40 is a good number to start especially for such heavy fighter and then they can acquire more as more budget becomes available.

 

[ghauri05]

Someone mentioned somewhere else that thE Saudis are interested in Chinese submarines. Pakistan is also buying Chinese submarines. One of the justifications for ~ 40 4.5 generation jets by PAF that H Khan of Pakdef mentioned was to create commonality with a major ally. This means that if this ally is China the it's almost certain this planse will be a SU-35. Ongoing negotiations of a new strategic and defense between Pakistan and China gives the Su-35 talk a certain weight.

But the Saudi acquisition of Chinese submarines will also bring the Eurofighter into the equation since Saudi Arabia is major user of the Eurofighter and Pakistan acquiring these jets will create a commonality between both forces. Based on behind the scenes movements between Pakistan & Saudi Arabia in the past few months, one can reasonably conclude something major is being worked out. The midnight stop over by the Saudi defense minister few days ago lends some weight to this speculation. We all know what Saudi Arabia will get out of a partnership with Pakistan. Billion dollar question is what will Pakistan get out of this partnership? I think we will find the answer to this question by the end of this year.

The constant resurfacing of a major fighter air craft acquisition is in many ways grounded in reality based on the movements we have seen the past few months whether it's the PAF chief traveling to Moscow, the persistent Russian media reports linking PAF to SU-35 and PAF's many encounters with the Eurofighter.

I personally don't prefer Typhoon as it is a western platform, and west has never reluctant to apply sanctions on Pak..I believe that if you have the world's best weapon in your possession but you are not allowed to use it..then it's just a piece of garbage ...Saudis have also used Pak so far....they are also under huge influence of Uncle SAM..so any procurement via KSA will always be vulnerable....I know Russia has been a great ally of india...but i think..in a crucial moment Russia may turnout to be a better supplier than west and saudis.

 

[Cash GK]

the country wanted to have dry route to Pakistani sea. for that they fought in afg and get destroyed itself. if that country sale some jets to Pakistan.. i believe it is not the price what they have paid in 80.. i belive it will be very good deal for Russia and Pakistan l... so 40 35 jets is not price as compere to got to pieces and divided in different countries in 80.. Russia have dream to reach in Indian ocean and they are very close to fulfill that deam.. it will be big upset for usa as welll. so line from Russia china and Pakistan and then Oman.... that maks strong business line... if we deal with Oman, Saudi and Somalia.........

 

[Signalian]

PAF is wasting too much time
I have always wondered, that we are operating F-16s for almost 30 years...in those 30 years we have managed to aquire only 70+ aircrafts so far .
People always say that we are short on cash...if we start buying in small numbers we can maintain a fleet of 40-60 aircrafts in next 5-6 years ...like in a previous thread it was reported Pak is looking to buy 6 SU35..i know its a very small number...but we need to take a start right now n it will keep things moving in a certain direction and money will also be not a big problem....simply can't understand why PAF is so clueless about its acquisitions???

Factors contributing acquisitions are aid in 1980's and then post 2001, permissions and sanctions, diversions of funds in calamities (2005 earthquake) and design/infrastructure/development of a new aircraft (JF-17).

F-16 acquisition was affected by all of above.

I personally don't prefer Typhoon as it is a western platform, and west has never reluctant to apply sanctions on Pak..I believe that if you have the world's best weapon in your possession but you are not allowed to use it..then it's just a piece of garbage ...Saudis have also used Pak so far....they are also under huge influence of Uncle SAM..so any procurement via KSA will always be vulnerable....I know Russia has been a great ally of india...but i think..in a crucial moment Russia may turnout to be a better supplier than west and saudis.

Typhoon is not American, whereas French is west too. Read about Mirage III / V and ROSE upgrades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

 

[ghauri05]

Factors contributing acquisitions are aid in 1980's and then post 2001, permissions and sanctions, diversions of funds in calamities (2005 earthquake) and design/infrastructure/development of a new aircraft (JF-17).

F-16 acquisition was affected by all of above.

In Musharaf era, if we had been clear about our goals n PAF had decided that they won't let go of F16s , any time soon, then a more persuasive policy should have been adopted....n today we would be flying 100+ F16s easily....but Alas..our PAF lost the track in their confusion...!!!

Typhoon is not American, whereas French is west too. Read about Mirage III / V and ROSE upgrades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_ROSE

I know, Typhoon is not american...but if america decides to apply sanctions on Pak...i don't think Britain will show any resistance

 

[war&peace]

Factors contributing acquisitions are aid in 1980's and then post 2001, permissions and sanctions, diversions of funds in calamities (2005 earthquake) and design/infrastructure/development of a new aircraft (JF-17).

F-16 acquisition was affected by all of above.

I think 40 is good number in the sense that it will offer enough incentive for Russia to offer it to Pakistan despite India's covert effort to derail the deal (as these trolls have been trying to derail the thread). By the way, India (also US lobby in Pak) overplays its cooperation and budget card vis-a-vis Russia-India but superpowers do not always think in terms of money. If Russia wanted to compromise for money, it would have done so 1-2 years ago over Crimea and did not get itself involved in Syria against USA and her middle-eastern allies. So for Russia, principles speak louder than money especially under Putin. Furthermore, Russia is forging stronger bond with China and they already know about Sino-Pak relations.

 

[Signalian]

I know, Typhoon is not american...but if america decides to apply sanctions on Pak...i don't think Britain will show any resistance

so in case Russia behaves in same manner for SU-35 , PAF integrates J-11 series weapons and parts to keep the SU35 in the air?

Its already clear that when Pakistan goes to war with India, the USA will put sanctions on both countries. The 76 F-16's will again face the spares problem. Longer the war, Longer the problem. However PAF didnt cannibalise any F-16 under sanctions and kept them flying, rumours being help from Turkish or Egypt or black market. EFT has many operators also including future ones as Oman and Kuwait apart from KSA.

 

[ghauri05]

so in case Russia behaves in same manner for SU-35 , PAF integrates J-11 series weapons and parts to keep the SU35 in the air?

Its already clear that when Pakistan goes to war with India, the USA will put sanctions on both countries. The 76 F-16's will again face the spares problem. Longer the war, Longer the problem. However PAF didnt cannibalise any F-16 under sanctions and kept them flying, rumours being help from Turkish or Egypt or black market. EFT has many operators also including future ones as Oman and Kuwait apart from KSA.

the reason i showed more confidence towards Russia was, i don't think these Arabs honour the relation between our countries at critical times...since the dawn of 21st century,they also work purely on interest driven relations and not the brotherhood....n in this century, i have never seen an Arab country standing alongside Pak in true sense.

 

[Signalian]

I think 40 is good number in the sense that it will offer enough incentive for Russia to offer it to Pakistan despite India's covert effort to derail the deal (as these trolls have been trying to derail the thread). By the way, India (also US lobby in Pak) overplays its cooperation and budget card vis-a-vis Russia-India but superpowers do not always think in terms of money. If Russia wanted to compromise for money, it would have done so 1-2 years ago over Crimea and did not get itself involved in Syria against USA and her middle-eastern allies. So for Russia, principles speak louder than money especially under Putin. Furthermore, Russia is forging stronger bond with China and they already know about Sino-Pak relations.

In case of Russia warming towards Pakistan, the role of China cannot be ignored. Infact China has assisted Russia in a 270 billion$ oil buying deal with 70 billion$ as upfront payment especially when Russia faced US-EU sanctions. So even if Russia thinks in terms of money, China has out played India already.

Pakistan needs to be eternally grateful to China for paving way for Pakistan every time.

Coming to SU-35, the first news was China getting 48 SU-35 and then news is soaring about PAF probably getting SU-35 now. The China card in evident in affairs of Pakistan.

the reason i showed more confidence towards Russia was, i don't think these Arabs honour the relation between our countries at critical times...since the dawn of 21st century,they also work purely on interest driven relations and not the brotherhood....n in this century, i have never seen an Arab country standing alongside Pak in true sense.

This will go off topic so i will keep it short.

Every country is interest-driven in the world so arabs are no different. In previous wars Pakistan received aid and weapons from Arabs where as sent its pilots and officers to arabs for their wars too. Pakistan has a brigade sized force deployed in KSA for protection of Royal Saud family apart from Holy places. So it can be expected that Pakistan will get something in return too, probably oil in case of war.
If we talk about acquisition from Arabs during sanctions, then Pakistan may not get them for free, Pakistan may need to pay(or pay extra) for every single spare part, weapon etc it buys.

 

[wiseone2]

Yes true for Pakistan as well as many nations but in manufacturing there is a word called dont invent the wheel . So my guess is assembling is the first stage that we are pretty good at

this is not true for jet engines. as an engineer I look at electronic complex products. the role of final assembly and test is diminshing in value.

PAF is wasting too much time
I have always wondered, that we are operating F-16s for almost 30 years...in those 30 years we have managed to aquire only 70+ aircrafts so far .
People always say that we are short on cash...if we start buying in small numbers we can maintain a fleet of 40-60 aircrafts in next 5-6 years ...like in a previous thread it was reported Pak is looking to buy 6 SU35..i know its a very small number...but we need to take a start right now n it will keep things moving in a certain direction and money will also be not a big problem....simply can't understand why PAF is so clueless about its acquisitions???

If you do not have the money to train and maintain on a piece of equipment do not bother buying it. that seems to be the philosophy of PAF. it seems like a sound approach to me.

 

[Tamilnadu]

So in other words, Russians themselves sabotaged the SU-35 by giving superior upgrade to SU-30. By the way, why shouldn't customer continue to buy SU-30 with same upgrade simply. You are just telling that Russians themselves undermined SU-35... The thing is you can say, super sukhoi upgrade may bring SU-30 at par with SU-35 to the most extent but not at all nor superior than that. SU-35 is their latest and superiority weapon that cannot be demoralized with such kind of self claimed upgrades. Let the MKI be upgraded as a proof that how potent the bird is.

The main difference between the mki and su 35 are the power plant,the radar and the weapons it carries..which is what will be upgraded in mki that will bring it par to su 35 and add to it the Indian specific and customised components from isreal,french and also some of the components from Pak fa or FGFA where India has invested money in developing.Is it not logical to use some of the tech where we have invested to incorporate into mki upgrades.
I am not sure what do you mean by Russians themselves sabotaged the SU-35,we are paying for it thats is close to $8-$9 billion.

If at all there is sabotage ,thats when they will be selling 24 su 35's to China.we all know what the chinese will do with those birds.if thats not sabotage than how will the mki upgrade be sabotage.

 

[volatile]

this is not true for jet engines. as an engineer I look at electronic complex products. the role of final assembly and test is diminshing in value.

Its a start

 

[araz]

You raised good points in your post. But as far as the denial part is concerned, the blame to equally to be shared by the main adversary (Pakistan) for the situation for whatever reasons, we should take the responsibility.

Bhai.
We dont have the cash in hand or the market for the west to play ball with us. This is why we get dumped every time an end game is in sight. If we had money we ould have played the game a lot differently. However thanks to our corruption and piss poor fiscal management we are perpetually in someone,s laps. We are not bei g allowed to be the leaders of our own destiny.
Somehow to me the JFT seems to be the first step in that direction. If only we can conntinue to progress from there. The economic mess needs to be resolved. But who will do so is anyone's guess.
A

The main difference between the mki and su 35 are the power plant,the radar and the weapons it carries..which is what will be upgraded in mki that will bring it par to su 35 and add to it the Indian specific and customised components from isreal,french and also some of the components from Pak fa or FGFA where India has invested money in developing.Is it not logical to use some of the tech where we have invested to incorporate into mki upgrades.
I am not sure what do you mean by Russians themselves sabotaged the SU-35,we are paying for it thats is close to $8-$9 billion.

If at all there is sabotage ,thats when they will be selling 24 su 35's to China.we all know what the chinese will do with those birds.if thats not sabotage than how will the mki upgrade be sabotage.

Beta ji.
The main difference is the reduction of RCS. THIS YOU CAN NOT DO on your lovely Yem kay yaiii. When you fly it it lights up like a big flash light. No amount of signature reduction measures will change that. Rest you can change whtever you like.
A

this is not true for jet engines. as an engineer I look at electronic complex products. the role of final assembly and test is diminshing in value.



If you do not have the money to train and maintain on a piece of equipment do not bother buying it. that seems to be the philosophy of PAF. it seems like a sound approach to me.

It is not that which is the problem. It is a matter of trust on the Russian side( I say this repeatedly we mauled them adly in Afghanistan and they will not forget it easily), cash on the Pakistani side( although can be overcome but for the first and last factor) and the major bug bear is the traditional delay in supplies from the russian side. The 35 is a beauty but other than monitoring of the sea lanes I dont see a huge benefit in having it.
A