Indus civilization and it's true inheritance

[Hamza913]

Don't know much about that. So it is akin to Pakistan laying claim over Mughal Empire because some areas of the Mughals fall in present day Pak?

No, because the Mughals also existed in Pakistan prior to entering Hindustan. The Mughals were also Muslim, spoke Urdu, ate Qeema and wore Shalwar Kameez. They belong to the Muslims of Hindustan and Pakistan, since these people are most similar to them culturally and are descended from them. Shah Jahan and Akbar (two of the most prominent Mughal rulers, the latter of which can be argued as the true founder of the Mughals) also came from Pakistan. Lahore was also one of the largest cities in the Mughal Empire, and has more Mughal architecture than Delhi itself.

The Mughals themselves had predominantly Eurasian ancestry. Just look at this map and see who has more affinity to them, you or us:

I don't think India exclusively claims the "entire" IVC. If it does, then obviously it is wrong.

A lot of Hindustanis do. I've had numerous arguments in Quora and the cancer that is the YouTube comment section over this, the argument literally goes along the lines of "Pakistan existed as a nation in 1947, therefore, any history prior to that belongs to Hindustan". It's so stupid my head hurts just listening to them. Some of them are at least intelligent enough to give us the Islamic history of the region, but that's about it.

Anyway, if someone from north-west Hindustan or a Hindustani of Pakistani ancestry wants to claim IVC, they can go ahead. Anyone else can only claim IVC on the basis of almost everyone alive today being descended from these early people (read previous posts for more info, almost all humans alive today have common ancestry from 2000-3000 years ago).

 

[Jackdaws]

No, because the Mughals also existed in Pakistan prior to entering Hindustan. The Mughals were also Muslim, spoke Urdu, ate Qeema and wore Shalwar Kameez. They belong to the Muslims of Hindustan and Pakistan, since these people are most similar to them culturally and are descended from them. Shah Jahan and Akbar (two of the most prominent Mughal rulers, the latter of which can be argued as the true founder of the Mughals) also came from Pakistan. Lahore was also one of the largest cities in the Mughal Empire, and has more Mughal architecture than Delhi itself.

The Mughals themselves had predominantly Eurasian ancestry. Just look at this map and see who has more affinity to them, you or us:

View attachment 468242



A lot of Hindustanis do. I've had numerous arguments in Quora and the cancer that is the YouTube comment section over this, the argument literally goes along the lines of "Pakistan existed as a nation in 1947, therefore, any history prior to that belongs to Hindustan". It's so stupid my head hurts just listening to them. Some of them are at least intelligent enough to give us the Islamic history of the region, but that's about it.

Anyway, if someone from north-west Hindustan or a Hindustani of Pakistani ancestry wants to claim IVC, they can go ahead. Anyone else can only claim IVC on the basis of almost everyone alive today being descended from these early people (read previous posts for more info, almost all humans alive today have common ancestry from 2000-3000 years ago).

I agree to most of it. Except Akbar himself subscribed to a different faith which he called "Din - e Elahi" - if I remember reading correctly he was declared a heretic even. Someone can shed light on this.

 

[Ahmad Sajjad Paracha]

I agree to most of it. Except Akbar himself subscribed to a different faith which he called "Din - e Elahi" - if I remember reading correctly he was declared a heretic even. Someone can shed light on this.

He did start dineellahi in which he kind of combined the positive points of almost all of religions of subcontinent and as a result built a worshipping place where all these religions were discussed and debate was also done regarding the teachings of religion. Although many muslim scholars criticised it as our Prophet(p.b.u.h) and other prominent figures were criticised but still akbar didn't terminate it and continued pratcising it. In his last phase of life he started practising proper islam and after his death his son Jahangir finished all that stuff.

 

[El Sidd]

finished

Nope

Pretty strong today still

 

[war&peace]

IVC is appropriated as Hindustani because Pakistan doesn't care about it.

wasalam,

That's not true mate. Pakistan cares about IVC as much as we care for rest of the issues. A common man in india knows much less about IVC than a common Pakistani ...you can ask them about Harappa and Mohenjodaro. Furthermore, the geographical and historical fact cannot be altered by the amount of care people give it to.

 

[Hamza913]

I agree to most of it. Except Akbar himself subscribed to a different faith which he called "Din - e Elahi" - if I remember reading correctly he was declared a heretic even. Someone can shed light on this.

He was born in Pakistan, which was my main point. When I said Muslim, I was referring to the Mughals themselves rather than specific rulers. Besides, you had some very disciplined Muslims among them, such as Aurangzeb, but most were somewhere in the middle like Shah Jahan.

 

[Corona]

wasalam,

That's not true mate. Pakistan cares about IVC as much as we care for rest of the issues. A common man in india knows much less about IVC than a common Pakistani ...you can ask them about Harappa and Mohenjodaro. Furthermore, the geographical and historical fact cannot be altered by the amount of care people give it to.

I wouldn't say this is true. We had entire chapters dedicated to the civilizations back in middle school. It's part of the central curriculum.

 

[Hamza913]

I wouldn't say this is true. We had entire chapters dedicated to the civilizations back in middle school. It's part of the central curriculum.

Same for Pakistan, but still, most people do not care. The only history we care about is the history relevant to our village/tribe, and Islamic history. That's it. Very few go further than that. Heck, I only knew about Porus because my father would tell me about him since he's (mostly) from the same area (Jhelum).

 

[Clutch]

We Pakistanis are the descendants of the Indus Civilization... It was the Indus civilization that really intrioduced the Caste system because they didn't want their blood and skin intermingled with the south people.

It was a racial purity check.. then with the conversion to Islam made sure that purity remained.

That is why the Indians have this inferiority complex against Pakistan...

And to this day Pakistan is trying to stay at a safe distance away from the people of the South (Hindutva nation to the south)... And they keep coming back to haunt us... Even on this forum.

 

[Mace]

Hey Guy,
I am opening this thread to discuss the legality of inheritance of indus civilization to pakistan in the context of history,culture,religion and other social aspects and why do most of indians deny the fact that pakistan is true inheritor of indus civilazation and claim that indus civilization was derived by them.
All the inputs are welcomed from Pakistani and indian brothers but my request is to make them objective. Thank you.
@dsr478@Joe Shearer @Kaptaan @Talwar e Pakistan @Sher Shah Awan@django.

The borders of India and Pak were drawn by the British. Literally if Radcliffe's fingers had slipped for all we know majority of IVC sites might have ended up in India.

IVC is shared history. South Asians despite unbelievable rich culture and unique identity suffer pettiness.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

wasalam,

That's not true mate. Pakistan cares about IVC as much as we care for rest of the issues. A common man in india knows much less about IVC than a common Pakistani ...you can ask them about Harappa and Mohenjodaro. Furthermore, the geographical and historical fact cannot be altered by the amount of care people give it to.

I don't think so honestly. The only reason why India is claiming our heritage, history, culture and etc... is because Pakistanis are ignorant and uncaring towards pre-Islamic history of Pakistan.

The borders of India and Pak were drawn by the British. Literally if Radcliffe's fingers had slipped for all we know majority of IVC sites might have ended up in India.

IVC is shared history. South Asians despite unbelievable rich culture and unique identity suffer pettiness.

The Indus Region has always been ethnically, culturally, religiously and linguistically distinct from that of modern-day India. That is a fact that no one can deny.

No one from India except maybe Punjabis, Gujaratis and some Rajasthanis can claim IVC.

We Pakistanis are the descendants of the Indus Civilization... It was the Indus civilization that really intrioduced the Caste system because they didn't want their blood and skin intermingled with the south people.

It was a racial purity check.. then with the conversion to Islam made sure that purity remained.

That is why the Indians have this inferiority complex against Pakistan...

And to this day Pakistan is trying to stay at a safe distance away from the people of the South (Hindutva nation to the south)... And they keep coming back to haunt us... Even on this forum.

The Indus Region has always been under the Baradari system, there is no historical references of the caste system being a mainstream part of our historical social structure.

As Buddha said about the region of the five rivers; ‘Ayyu hattu ada sohoti/ Dasu hatto ayyu hoti’ (These people have two classes, freemen and slaves. They can easily change their class).

 

[MultaniGuy]

Pakistan is the rightful heir to the Indus river civilization.

India cannot claim IVC civilization.

Man people are stupid. People think we are similar to Indians.

Maybe only the Muhajirs of Pakistan from the United Provinces of Agra and Oudh may have some similar DNA to Indians. But in reality Pakistanis are completely different to Indians in DNA, outlook on and of life.

We Pakistanis have nothing in common with Indians.

 

[UnitedPak]

The borders of India and Pak were drawn by the British. Literally if Radcliffe's fingers had slipped for all we know majority of IVC sites might have ended up in India.

IVC is shared history. South Asians despite unbelievable rich culture and unique identity suffer pettiness.

This is exactly the sort of dishonest obscuration that many of consider petty and unreasonable. The fact is that you cannot rationally discuss history without picking one extreme view or the other.

Let's be clear on one thing. Punjab was partitioned. Most of the 500-odd states chose to join Pakistan or India. Your analogy is completely unfit for purpose.

And this has never been a measuring contest. Indus Valley/Indus River is and always has been the foundation, centre and lifeblood of Pakistani people and civilisations. i.e Pashtuns population hubs based on Indus and its Western tributaries, Kashmiri, Punjabi, Sindhi hubs on Indus and its eastern tributaries. Naturally, logically and according to the recent study on South Asian population origins, the IVC is the precursor to the people whose cultures, languages and lineages have developed on the Indus basin over the last 9000 years.
Sure this includes Indian Punjabis too, but it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that the Ganges region, Deccan plateau, Assam region is linked to the Indus in the same way. Even if minor migration events took place (separate topic), it does not compare in the same way.

 

[MultaniGuy]

This is exactly the sort of dishonest obscuration that many of consider petty and unreasonable. The fact is that you cannot rationally discuss history without picking one extreme view or the other.

Let's be clear on one thing. Punjab was partitioned. Most of the 500-odd states chose to join Pakistan or India. Your analogy is completely unfit for purpose.

And this has never been a measuring contest. Indus Valley/Indus River is and always has been the foundation, centre and lifeblood of Pakistani people and civilisations. i.e Pashtuns population hubs based on Indus and its Western tributaries, Kashmiri, Punjabi, Sindhi hubs on Indus and its eastern tributaries. Naturally, logically and according to the recent study on South Asian population origins, the IVC is the precursor to the people whose cultures, languages and lineages have developed on the Indus basin over the last 9000 years.
Sure this includes Indian Punjabis too, but it's a bit of a stretch to suggest that the Ganges region, Deccan plateau, Assam region is linked to the Indus in the same way. Even if minor migration events took place (separate topic), it does not compare in the same way.

We have nothing to do with Indians. Indians are a completely different race to us.

 

[Mace]

I don't think so honestly. The only reason why India is claiming our heritage, history, culture and etc... is because Pakistanis are ignorant and uncaring towards pre-Islamic history of Pakistan.


The Indus Region has always been ethnically, culturally, religiously and linguistically distinct from that of modern-day India. That is a fact that no one can deny.

No one from India except maybe Punjabis, Gujaratis and some Rajasthanis can claim IVC.

Even just going by your post with you agreeing Punjabis, Gujaratis, Rajastanis etc having rights to shared IVC heritage, Punjabis, Gujaratis, Rajastanis are Indians. Hence the shared claim by Indians and Pakistanis to IVC heritage stands.

Hypothetically if British India had remained undivided after the British left provinces of current day Pakistan would have been individual states with their unique language and culture intact under a central federal governing setup.

You are adding nothing new to the conversation saying Pakistanis are unique.

Gujaratis, Punjabis or Bengali in modern day India are unique with their own language, food and culture.