Indonesian Navy wants to prolong the operating life of its 6 Van Speijk class Frigates

[ANMDT]

I have no idea bro. The first 2 Gerpard corvettes was not so bad because it was cheap (~$150 mil), good training ships for the navy because we have never operated corvettes over 2000 tons before. But the order for next 4 Gepards is just silly imo. They supposedly cost the same or more than the Steregushchy but has way less firepower.

The Gepard is actually originally an OPV design, they just add some weapons to it and calls it a “frigate”. They are not a real multipurpose corvette like the Steregushchy with complete AAW, ASW and AShW package in one hull. The first 2 Gepards has no decent SAM system, and no Sonar, no hangar. The 3rd and 4th only add a sonar+torpedo launchers and the 5th and 6th I hope they just cancel it lol.

Basically, why the Gepard was ordered I have no idea. The latest 4 orders are just simply illogical imo.

Was there a tender for purchasing corvette? I need to ask this to give a further comment about the procedurement.
If there was no tender, and Vietnam government had to buy with negotiation , then it is like you have to buy whatever served , without considering your need. Sometimes its in the hands of supplier.

If there was a tender, maybe Viet navy preffered less armed systems to train personal at 1st,because more advanced systems require continous training,and each personal may have to be trained not only in a single manner.


@Indos, bro according the my quick research on military ship rules, these 6 ships received 5 times major repair and overhaul, plus one major modernization and overhaul in 2005 , from this aspect we can say, each of the ship costed 2 times of their value in repair /overhaul cost, also 0.5 times of their value for modernization in 2005 and integration .
From here,we can conclude that , each ship has costed 2 times of their value to keep in them in operations ,its an example of mismanagement , and lack of future projection on navy.
This is similar to what happened in my country about 10-15 years, navy havent prepared a future plan for fleet but spontaneously retired ships and replaced them. When there is no future plan, they have realized they only got to buy whatever offered (due to urgency to replace) ,without negotiating and bargaining

 

[Bhayangkara]

The 3rd and 4th only add a sonar+torpedo launchers and the 5th and 6th I hope they just cancel it lol...

Hehe thats why the Viet Gepards are nick named “cheerleading ships” on forums.

I totally agree with you. That's why I always say that its either bribery or extreme incompetence, I can't see any other reason. I don't buy the reasons that Viet members usually give to justify the Gepards or to justify to continue buying them.

Whether we like it or not, but at least now you have the platforms in ready First. For the current time, most important thing is those ships can be used to patrol as a form of presence at the hot-spot area. And if the situations require a more powerful ship, then you can just upgrade those ships with more powerful systems and weaponry, which is I think it doesn't require a more time rather than having to build a new platform one (but sorry it's just my personal opinion)..

 

[Carlosa]

Whether we like it or not, but at least now you have the platforms in ready First. For the current time, most important thing is those ships can be used to patrol as a form of presence at the hot-spot area. And if the situations require a more powerful ship, then you can just upgrade those ships with more powerful systems and weaponry, which is I think it doesn't require a more time rather than having to build a new platform one (but sorry it's just my personal opinion)..

Sure, better to have them than not to have them, at least they can show the flag.

As for their upgrade potential, I would say is rather limited.

Sigmas would be much better, particularly without European missiles (way too expensive).

 

[hans]

Indonesia is seeking capacity of building its weapons.
Just like the C802 anti-ship missile, Indonesia is trying to import all parts from China and assemble in Indonesia..
And China is quite willing to offer that kind of tech transfer.
West weapons may not be that reliable. Australia, major potential enemy of Indonesia, is in the west side.

I think jokowi already choose to build our own war ship on our own ship yard, so it's impossible for ship from china to be purchased by the navy, we are concentrating on PKR 105, who knows tommorow will be a PKR 125 or even PKR 140
If it empty, ill rather choose iver huidfelt of royal danish navy design over chinese 054A/B

For a long time, VN can only buy ships from Russia, which is also suffering from lack of warships.
Russia has no respectful warships that can be offered to VN.
West countries have not loosed the restriction on military sales to VN
China has good warships but VN definitely will not buy that...
Then what can it buy??

I have no idea bro. The first 2 Gerpard corvettes was not so bad because it was cheap (~$150 mil), good training ships for the navy because we have never operated corvettes over 2000 tons before. But the order for next 4 Gepards is just silly imo. They supposedly cost the same or more than the Steregushchy but has way less firepower.

The Gepard is actually originally an OPV design, they just add some weapons to it and calls it a “frigate”. They are not a real multipurpose corvette like the Steregushchy with complete AAW, ASW and AShW package in one hull. The first 2 Gepards has no decent SAM system, and no Sonar, no hangar. The 3rd and 4th only add a sonar+torpedo launchers and the 5th and 6th I hope they just cancel it lol.

Basically, why the Gepard was ordered I have no idea. The latest 4 orders are just simply illogical imo.

 

[ANMDT]

West countries have not loosed the restriction on military sales to VN

Noone from the west would like to deliver their high tech solutions to an Russian ally country (except of delivering a build-in solutions which may not be used against the other side), its well known how russians have inifluence on vietnam. Specially when the matter is military .
Also on the other aspect , Russia influence in the military of vietnam, pushes procedurement in the way of russia. Once Vinashin formal-manager has tried to go for cooperation in ship building ,by co-production in vietnam following vietnamese design ( at least for patrol boats and small ships in the beginning) , In the end he was just taken into custody by "proof " of corruption.
He was the one who pushed for production of tarantuls in vietnam, and russia brought their engineers and rejected to train vietnamese ( i dont know the final situation )

Sorry guys it went off topic a little

 

[Carlosa]

Noone from the west would like to deliver their high tech solutions to an Russian ally country (except of delivering a build-in solutions which may not be used against the other side), its well known how russians have inifluence on vietnam. Specially when the matter is military .
Also on the other aspect , Russia influence in the military of vietnam, pushes procedurement in the way of russia. Once Vinashin formal-manager has tried to go for cooperation in ship building ,by co-production in vietnam following vietnamese design ( at least for patrol boats and small ships in the beginning) , In the end he was just taken into custody by "proof " of corruption.
He was the one who pushed for production of tarantuls in vietnam, and russia brought their engineers and rejected to train vietnamese ( i dont know the final situation )

Sorry guys it went off topic a little

Interesting info. Well, the tarantul replacement is now being produced nicely in Vietnam (The Molniya), so it seems like that situation ended up working out ok in the end, but yes, the Russians have a reputation of not wanting to transfer tech even when they make a commitment to do so as India learned the hard way. the Russians often try to resist letting others build under their license and then, they turn around and give the whole thing to China knowing that all the chinese want is to copy it. Makes no sense really.

 

[Indos]

Indonesia is seeking capacity of building its weapons.
Just like the C802 anti-ship missile, Indonesia is trying to import all parts from China and assemble in Indonesia..
And China is quite willing to offer that kind of tech transfer.
West weapons may not be that reliable. Australia, major potential enemy of Indonesia, is in the west side.

Actually it is C-705,

Indonesian attack craft complete test of C-705 missile system
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
30 July 2014

The Indonesian Navy's (Tentera Nasional Indonesia - Angkatan Laut, or TNI-AL's) first two KCR-40-class attack craft, KRI Clurit and KRI Kujang , have completed sea acceptance tests of its C-705 surface-to-surface missiles' fire-control system.

According to a statement issued by the TNI-AL's Western Fleet Command (KOARMABAR) on 24 July, the tests, which included firing the missiles at a target, were carried out in the waters near Lingga Island, which is located about 200 km south of Singapore.

The TNI-AL has, however, stopped short of revealing further details of the fire-control system or the type of target engaged during these tests.

The C-705 is a multipurpose missile that was first displayed by China in October 2008 and bears resemblance to the C-602 (YJ-62) anti-ship missile, albeit smaller and lighter. The projectile has a maximum effective range of 140 km and is, in its basic version, guided by an 8 mm active radar during its terminal stage. The C-705 is believed to be capable of carrying a 130 kg HE semi-armour piercing (SAP) directional warhead.

The statement by KOARMABAR claims that during the tests it assessed the C-705's probability of sinking a ship to be 95.7% for vessels with a displacement of up to 1,500 tonnes. Each KCR-40-class vessel can carry up to four C-705 missiles.

IHS Jane's reported in February 2013 that the TNI-AL's KCR-40-class missile boats will be equipped with an initial batch of C-705 anti-ship missiles purchased from China, before making the transition to a version built indigenously by state-owned arms manufacturer PT Pindad. PT Indonesian Aerospace was also reported to be participating in local production of the C-705 in the future but no details of the company's progress on this are yet available.

It is believed that TNI-AL will receive between six to 12 missiles from China by the end of 2014 to equip the first two vessels of the class. Clurit (641) and Kujang (642) were commissioned in April 2011 and February 2012 respectively and were joined by two other vessels in class in 2013 - KRI Beladau (643) and KRI Alamang (644). Indonesia is expected to operate up to 24 KCR-40 missile attack craft.

Clurit and Kujang are currently under the strength of the TNI-AL's Western Fleet (KOARMABAR) and are expected to be deployed for maritime patrol duties in the Riau Archipelago once fully operational.

Indonesian attack craft complete test of C-705 missile system - IHS Jane's 360

 

[Heinz Guderian]

Interesting info. Well, the tarantul replacement is now being produced nicely in Vietnam (The Molniya), so it seems like that situation ended up working out ok in the end, but yes, the Russians have a reputation of not wanting to transfer tech even when they make a commitment to do so as India learned the hard way. the Russians often try to resist letting others build under their license and then, they turn around and give the whole thing to China knowing that all the chinese want is to copy it. Makes no sense really.

You cant blame Russia for all the shit,

somehow Indian MoD is also suffering from some myopic view, like buying INS Vikky which is atleast a two generation behind the new Indian carrier which India building.

More over Russians barred the Indians to do anykind of upgradation on the carrier,

so I dont think, we going to see new radars, sensors and Barak 8 on INS Vikky.

 

[Carlosa]

You cant blame Russia for all the shit,

somehow Indian MoD is also suffering from some myopic view, like buying INS Vikky which is atleast a two generation behind the new Indian carrier which India building.

More over Russians barred the Indians to do anykind of upgradation on the carrier,

so I dont think, we going to see new radars, sensors and Barak 8 on INS Vikky.

Well, lets just say that all the parties seem to be quite adept at shooting themselves on their own foot. Quite foolish and preventable, but very real nevertheless.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

From here,we can conclude that , each ship has costed 2 times of their value to keep in them in operations ,its an example of mismanagement , and lack of future projection on navy.
This is similar to what happened in my country about 10-15 years, navy havent prepared a future plan for fleet but spontaneously retired ships and replaced them. When there is no future plan, they have realized they only got to buy whatever offered (due to urgency to replace), without negotiating and bargaining

You can call it mismanagement or misfortune, since we almost broke in 1998 because of Asian financial crisis. Distrust on military element were high and defense spending severely cut for a long period of time. Not until the 2nd period of SBY presidency, defense spending were gradually increased to a reasonable level. We had planned for a long time to replace VS, but we had no fund to spare and we had to accept bloated operational cost since we couldn't afford to pay investment cost to acquire the new frigate fleet.

Today, we already secured license to build 20 units of Sigma 10514 light frigate. The 1st will be completed next year and the 2nd in 2017. Moreover, government have started to design & build our own Frigate (150m long) in collaboration with our universities and national defense industries.

As for bargaining, we recently got three 2000ton F2000 corvette for only $300M.

 

[ANMDT]

You can call it mismanagement or misfortune, since we almost broke in 1998 because of Asian financial crisis. Distrust on military element were high and defense spending severely cut for a long period of time. Not until the 2nd period of SBY presidency, defense spending were gradually increased to a reasonable level. We had planned for a long time to replace VS, but we had no fund to spare and we had to accept bloated operational cost since we couldn't afford to pay investment cost to acquire the new frigate fleet.

Today, we already secured license to build 20 units of Sigma 10514 light frigate. The 1st will be completed next year and the 2nd in 2017. Moreover, government have started to design & build our own Frigate (150m long) in collaboration with our universities and national defense industries.

As for bargaining, we recently got three 2000ton F2000 corvette for only $300M.

We have faced the same things mate ,as turkey . When we were trying to modernize our army in post 95 era, we have faced one major earthquake which led government to change plus financial crisis in 2000 followed by earthquake,projects were delayed by 5 years at least and suspended.
But the matter is to being aware of this situation,that its not feasible to operate and sparing the ships for military exercises to sunk .
About 150m frigates , as i see indonesia is about to replace light frigate/corvette batch from foreigner countries , but designing a 150m frigate is a rival ,if there is no experience on the matter and assistance of an experienced country is highly needed. By going alone into the project, it would take 15 years to maturize design and prototype ship. By going with an experienced consultant,it would be 9 years.

Basically when you begin to a project , collaboration with university is vital, because the needed methods for various part of ships are handles by MsC /Phd dissertations ,held in the other countries who is experienced. During this period,conceptual design is evaulated,when they returned,their knowledge is mounted into concept. However much you mount into, the period extends by coming with a final detail design issue ( training in a consultant is needed unless designed a similar ship before).

Basically this @Indos ,hope it can explain. Will be there any smaller design frigate around a light size,then medium before going to 150 m?

 

[hans]

If Russia does not sell, we will also work it out. It is only a matter of time.
But for Russia, it will lose much money from the military sales.
On the other side, VN, India and other countries lack the capacity of building their own weapons.
So no matter what Russia offer, they will buy it..

Interesting info. Well, the tarantul replacement is now being produced nicely in Vietnam (The Molniya), so it seems like that situation ended up working out ok in the end, but yes, the Russians have a reputation of not wanting to transfer tech even when they make a commitment to do so as India learned the hard way. the Russians often try to resist letting others build under their license and then, they turn around and give the whole thing to China knowing that all the chinese want is to copy it. Makes no sense really.

 

[pr1v4t33r]

About 150m frigates , as i see indonesia is about to replace light frigate/corvette batch from foreigner countries , but designing a 150m frigate is a rival ,if there is no experience on the matter and assistance of an experienced country is highly needed. By going alone into the project, it would take 15 years to maturize design and prototype ship. By going with an experienced consultant,it would be 9 years.

Once we complete the 3rd or 4th sigma 10514 project (105m), we will have adequate knowhow to properly design and build frigate acording to our own requirement. Sure we will bring industrial expert assistance in our collaboration work together with our universities expert and our national defence industies.. Damen in this case comes to mind.

I'm optimistic with this effort since we are already able to design & build our own LPD (125m) with transfer of technology assistance from south korea in the past, even exporting 2 LPD to the Philippines.

 

[Indos]

Basically this @Indos ,hope it can explain. Will be there any smaller design frigate around a light size,then medium before going to 150 m?

I dont know about that, maybe PT PAL has confidence to build 150 m frigate, the previous plan is to design a frigate in 2017, and it seems the program will be started sooner as Joko Widodo get the power now. There is a warship design that PT PAL has previously made, not a frigate though but an OPV, not yet produced. Other is 60 m missile boat and has already had 16 orders.

PT PAL 60 M missile boat, 3 has already been operated, (there is 16 order for this one from navy)

 

[Heinz Guderian]

I dont know about that, maybe PT PAL has confidence to build 150 m frigate, the previous plan is to design a frigate in 2017, and it seems the program will be started sooner as Joko Widodo get the power now. There is a warship design that PT PAL has previously made, not a frigate though but an OPV, not yet produced. Other is 60 m missile boat and has already had 16 orders.

PT PAL 60 M missile boat, 3 has already been operated, (there is 16 order for this one from navy)

150 meter frigate ? Or Destroyer?

Even P-17A not going to be a 150 meter frigate.