Indonesia Next Aviation Ambition, R 80 Aircraft

[Indos]

The program has been included into strategic national program (PSN) last year. It shows R80 program have become a government funded program and because of that PT RAI will need to cooperate with state own aerospace company, PT Dirgantara Indonesia, to design and produce the planes. Currently PT RAI is still working with its preliminary design phase and since the end of last year the design has already been tested in wind tunnel.

With current condition where the economy is still under pressure due to Covid 19 outbreak, R 80 program will likely be delayed and because of that will not meet its previous target. Realistically, I dont hope that the government can start disbursing enough money to the project soon despite the project has become a strategic national program. It is because current administration has proven to have more focus on economic and welfare program compared to high tech homegrown project. We need to wait for next administration to finish the job and make the plane fly inshaAllah.

For the mean time, PT RAI designers need to finish its preliminary design first. I think since the program has already become government project so PTDI engineers can help PT RAI in its detail design phase. As we know, detail design need lot of designers that for Indonesia case the only company capable to do it is PTDI.

I will try to keep updating the thread if there is any new development going on.

 

[Whizzack]

You said some years ago that this R 80 can be used as anti sub platform. But what about N 219 and N 245? Can't they used as anti sub platform too?

I believe almost any civilian airliner can be turned into an MPA/ASW platform with enough military modifications like structural strengthening, weapons hardpoints, gear attachments, etc.. however those additions will increase weight and cost... and with the N219, it's even more unlikely as the plane is quite small.. Sub hunting gear is bulky, the torpedoes / depth charges / buoys are heavy... and even if it can carry all of that, range and endurance will suffer a lot... At best the N219 can become a small MPA but not an ASW...

The N245 is also unlikely to become an ASW due to the below reasons...

Then we have to develop this CN 245 ASW too. As it is a very strategist platform to our naval warfare. What prevent us from doing so?

The N245 is basically a "civilianized" version of the CN235 for the civilian commercial market, it attempts to remove all non-essential gears (like the heavy ramp doors) to reduce weight and mechanical complexity so it will be more efficient (and also slightly increase passenger space)... There's a reason why the CN235 was not successful in the civilian market, it is designed too much as a tactical airlifter as opposed to a commuter airliner, and hence can't compete with the likes of ATR-42 even though it's about the same size and capacity... So turning the N245 into an ASW (military) plane makes no sense as it means re-militarizing back a plane design that was previously de-militerized... If an ASW platform is required, PT DI should just offer the CN235 ASW which is already an existing design instead of wasting time and money trying to reinvent the wheel with the N245.

Of course if PTDI suddenly decides to shutdown the CN235 production line after they have completed the N245, then a military version of the N245 will become necessary.

 

[Brainsucker]

I believe almost any civilian airliner can be turned into an MPA/ASW platform with enough military modifications like structural strengthening, weapons hardpoints, gear attachments, etc.. however those additions will increase weight and cost... and with the N219, it's even more unlikely as the plane is quite small.. Sub hunting gear is bulky, the torpedoes / depth charges / buoys are heavy... and even if it can carry all of that, range and endurance will suffer a lot... At best the N219 can become a small MPA but not an ASW...

The N245 is also unlikely to become an ASW due to the below reasons...

The N245 is basically a "civilianized" version of the CN235 for the civilian commercial market, it attempts to remove all non-essential gears (like the heavy ramp doors) to reduce weight and mechanical complexity so it will be more efficient (and also slightly increase passenger space)... There's a reason why the CN235 was not successful in the civilian market, it is designed too much as a tactical airlifter as opposed to a commuter airliner, and hence can't compete with the likes of ATR-42 even though it's about the same size and capacity... So turning the N245 into an ASW (military) plane makes no sense as it means re-militarizing back a plane design that was previously de-militerized... If an ASW platform is required, PT DI should just offer the CN235 ASW which is already an existing design instead of wasting time and money trying to reinvent the wheel with the N245.

Of course if PTDI suddenly decides to shutdown the CN235 production line after they have completed the N245, then a military version of the N245 will become necessary.

Ah I got it. Thanks. Btw, but according to a youtube channel that I found in Indonesia defence forum thread in this forum, there are submarines who dive when sailing inside our sea. So I think that ASW plane is necessary for our TNI AL. Specially when we have already have a platform that can be used for that, and PT DI has build one for Turkiye.

 

[Nike]

I believe almost any civilian airliner can be turned into an MPA/ASW platform with enough military modifications like structural strengthening, weapons hardpoints, gear attachments, etc.. however those additions will increase weight and cost... and with the N219, it's even more unlikely as the plane is quite small.. Sub hunting gear is bulky, the torpedoes / depth charges / buoys are heavy... and even if it can carry all of that, range and endurance will suffer a lot... At best the N219 can become a small MPA but not an ASW...

The N245 is also unlikely to become an ASW due to the below reasons...



The N245 is basically a "civilianized" version of the CN235 for the civilian commercial market, it attempts to remove all non-essential gears (like the heavy ramp doors) to reduce weight and mechanical complexity so it will be more efficient (and also slightly increase passenger space)... There's a reason why the CN235 was not successful in the civilian market, it is designed too much as a tactical airlifter as opposed to a commuter airliner, and hence can't compete with the likes of ATR-42 even though it's about the same size and capacity... So turning the N245 into an ASW (military) plane makes no sense as it means re-militarizing back a plane design that was previously de-militerized... If an ASW platform is required, PT DI should just offer the CN235 ASW which is already an existing design instead of wasting time and money trying to reinvent the wheel with the N245.

Of course if PTDI suddenly decides to shutdown the CN235 production line after they have completed the N245, then a military version of the N245 will become necessary.

You know, there is reason why CN 235 can never be a successfull ASW platform? Their ramp door design is the point of inherent flaw. There is little space to put more internal equipments because of the ramp door, and the center of gravity is matter too.

Thats why most of the successfull ASW platform actually came from either dedicated design (P1 , Orion and so on) or converted civillian aircraft (p8, ATR 72 and so on) , but not come from converted military cargo aircraft with ramp door.

If anything, i believe converted N245 or R 80 will be a much potent platform for ASW /MPA duties compared to CN235/295

There is reason why TNI AL/AU not considering using CN 235 as their dedicated ASW platform, and instead using them as MPA aircraft with some leeway to use them for cargo hauler sometimes with pelletized compartment kits.

Yup, very strategic and important. For example, US Navy has 130 ASW planes and until Today it keeps ordering. Indonesia has vast sea areas to protect and if we want to win naval battle we have to have enough ASW planes.

For your information, we havent had any ASW planes yet and just several years ago inducted around 11 ASW helicopters. Our MPA planes number is also so pathetic, we only have 7 CN 235 MPA and around 3 NC 212 MPA. US Coast Guard has 58 MPA planes as comparison. Comparing both nation is not an exaggeration since both countries have vast sea areas and Indonesia even has more sea territory to guard than USA.

The reason of why we still dont have a single ASW plane and only have few MPA planes is money. Classic reason. We need to wait our economy to grow big enough so that it can enable us to have at least 18 billion USD defense budget every year, or about double current figure, to have sufficient defense equipment to protect our nation inshaAllah. Hopefully we can have such economy starting at 2030 when our economy is projected to double current GDP.

I think what our government need to do in the short term is to add 5 more CN 235 MPA and at least have 2 CN 235 ASW.

Indonesia PT DI got ordered of five CN 235 MPA in 2013 and they just conclude the order last year in October. They need five years to finished the order of measly five aircraft. There is much to be desired from our aviation industry , especially their production speed.

Meanwhile Boeing and Kawasaki can churn out P8 or P1 aircraft at rates of five to 8 aircraft per year even with customized design.

 

[Whizzack]

You know, there is reason why CN 235 can never be a successfull ASW platform? Their ramp door design is the point of inherent flaw. There is little space to put more internal equipments because of the ramp door, and the center of gravity is matter too.

Thats why most of the successfull ASW platform actually came from either dedicated design (P1 , Orion and so on) or converted civillian aircraft (p8, ATR 72 and so on) , but not come from converted military cargo aircraft with ramp door.

If anything, i believe converted N245 or R 80 will be a much potent platform for ASW /MPA duties compared to CN235/295

There is reason why TNI AL/AU not considering using CN 235 as their dedicated ASW platform, and instead using them as MPA aircraft with some leeway to use them for cargo hauler sometimes with pelletized compartment kits.



Indonesia PT DI got ordered of five CN 235 MPA in 2013 and they just conclude the order last year in October. They need five years to finished the order of measly five aircraft. There is much to be desired from our aviation industry , especially their production speed.

Meanwhile Boeing and Kawasaki can churn out P8 or P1 aircraft at rates of five to 8 aircraft per year even with customized design.

Never going to be a successful ASW just because of a ramp door...? First time I heard about that, never read anything about such claims either...

However I agree with you that CN235-sized planes are a bit too small to become dedicated ASW and I believe is the main reason why it won't be a very successful ASW platform... C295/R80-sized planes are probably the minimum size for a proper ASW platform... Sub hunting gear and weaponry is heavy and bulky afterall... So I strongly support the development of the R80 as AEW/MPA/ASW platform...

However in the MPA role there should be no reason as to why a N245/R80 will become a more potent platform compared to existing CN235/295 simply because it got no ramp door.. It's the onboard sensors that matters afterall... If anything the ramp door actually helps especially in SAR missions, and is the reason why the USCG is using it as their MPA and SAR plane...

Anyway, I believe the main reason why PTDI wants the N245 is because it wants to capture some of the civilian market share, something it can't do with the CN235.. So I don't really see why it would want to spend more time and money to design the N245 MPA/ASW when they already have the CN235 for that role... Maybe if they have firm requests they would...

 

[Brainsucker]

Never going to be a successful ASW just because of a ramp door...? First time I heard about that, never read anything about such claims either...

However I agree with you that CN235-sized planes are a bit too small to become dedicated ASW and I believe is the main reason why it won't be a very successful ASW platform... C295/R80-sized planes are probably the minimum size for a proper ASW platform... Sub hunting gear and weaponry is heavy and bulky afterall... So I strongly support the development of the R80 as AEW/MPA/ASW platform...

However in the MPA role there should be no reason as to why a N245/R80 will become a more potent platform compared to existing CN235/295 simply because it got no ramp door.. It's the onboard sensors that matters afterall... If anything the ramp door actually helps especially in SAR missions, and is the reason why the USCG is using it as their MPA and SAR plane...

Anyway, I believe the main reason why PTDI wants the N245 is because it wants to capture some of the civilian market share, something it can't do with the CN235.. So I don't really see why it would want to spend more time and money to design the N245 MPA/ASW when they already have the CN235 for that role... Maybe if they have firm requests they would...

Wait a minutes, but according to @Indos in this thread, that PT DI has build CN-235-200 (ASW) for Turkiye (Turkey). So PT DI should has already has possess the knowledge. Then what prevent us to build the same platform that they have already have done before?

 

[Indos]

Wait a minutes, but according to @Indos in this thread, that PT DI has build CN-235-200 (ASW) for Turkiye (Turkey). So PT DI should has already has possess the knowledge. Then what prevent us to build the same platform that they have already have done before?

As I have already explained it, money bro. Government doesnt have enough defense spending to use it on various platform that we need. They dont order CN 235 ASW, they also dont order military satellite, they also dont order AWACS planes, and so on, and so on.

 

[Indos]

Some good conversation with PT RAI Director after current administration take the program out of strategic national program. If you are interested you can use Google Translate to read the conversation.

Here I give the link:

https://www.cnbcindonesia.com/profi...-blakan-soal-kelanjutan-proyek-r80-bj-habibie

I still believe that next administration will back the project fully, inshaAllah.

Ilham Habibie with R 80 plane model

 

[Indos]

New picture of R 80 model being tested in Indonesian wind tunnel facility (BBTA3)

Some of the works done by BBTA3 (under BPPT) for R 80 since 2014.

 

[Indos]

Lapan and PT RAI continue the R80 project
Monday 21 Sep 2020 11:21 WIB
Red: Agus Yulianto

REPUBLIKA.CO.ID, JAKARTA - In the midst of doubts from the Indonesian public regarding the future of the aerospace industry with the abolition of the R80 as a National Strategic Project / PSN and the creation of the N250 aircraft, the government, in this case the National Aeronautics and Space Agency (Lapan), has signed a cooperation agreement. with PT Regio Aviasi Industri / RAI. Government support is an important part of the national R80 aircraft development plan.

The MoU between Lapan and PT RAI was carried out on September 7, 2020. Of course this shows a positive response and appreciation and support from the government for private efforts to build the R80 aircraft as initiated by the late. Mr. BJ Habibie. The signing was carried out by the Head of LAPAN, Prof. Thomas Djamaluddin and the President Director of PT RAI Agung Nugroho, witnessed directly by Ilham Akbar Habibie as the President Commissioner of PT RAI.

Public Relations of PT RAI, Justin Djogo said the cooperation would begin with Lapan's involvement in the development / design process of the R80 aircraft. In accordance with the existing capabilities at LAPAN as a national aerospace research center. Such as (but not limited to) fluid dynamics computational support, aircraft stability & control simulation, flight performance calculations and in time, aircraft testing related to aircraft certification, such as bird impact tests and others.

Justin said that after leaving PSN, PT RAI is currently trying to get support from the government in the form of the R80 program being included in the national research and innovation priority list. This began with a directive from the Minister of Research and Technology / National Agency for Research and Technology in the form of support for cooperation between the National Aeronautics and Space Agency (LAPAN) and PT Regio Aviasi Industri / RAI, in accordance with the main duties and functions of LAPAN, which culminated in the signing of the MoU on September 7, 2020.

"However, government support is an important part of the national R80 aircraft development plan. For the development of an aircraft, support is needed from various aspects, given the strategic, complex, long-term nature of the aviation industry, involving large funding and policy and regulatory support. "he said in a statement received by Republika.co.id , Monday (21/9).

Therefore, Justin expressed his high appreciation to the government, in this case the Ministry of Research and Technology, National Agency for Research and Innovation and LAPAN for this support. He also hopes that this support will continue with the support of economic diplomacy (which has been running until now) and support from ministries related to industrial facilitation, certification for the aerospace industry ecosystem, so that the industry can grow to support the ideals of Golden Indonesia 2045 with the contribution of economic growth and better than the current nation's competitiveness.

"We believe that cooperation between industry and government in research and development is a must to complement each other in an aerospace industry ecosystem," he said.

According to him, industry experience can be used as material for research institutions to innovate. On the other hand, findings in the research sector can provide the basis for the application of a technology to be implemented.

"This cooperation can develop according to common needs. As has been done in the last few years, PT RAI is actively involved in the preparation of the Aerospace Industry Roadmap which is currently being coordinated by the Ministry of Research and Technology of National Agency for Research and Technology along with other industrial stakeholders," he said.

While adapting to the latest developments such as the Covid 19 pandemic, said Jastin, it is estimated that there will be a setback in the program. Where the full scale development phase will only begin at the end of 2021, prototype production in 2023, first flight at the end of 2025, certification is planned for 2028. "We still have to see developments in supplier countries involved in the development of the R80," he said.

In principle, sales / contracts with customers are projected to be carried out in early 2026. However, the delivery of the first aircraft will be carried out after obtaining national certification which is estimated to be in 2028.

Lapan dan PT RAI Lanjutkan Proyek R80 |Republika Online

Dukungan pemerintah merupakan bagian penting rencana pengembangan pesawat nasional.

republika.co.id

 

[Indos]

That was Google Translate, the English translation is not perfect.

 

[Indos]

Interview with Ilham Habibie, President Commissioner PT RAI

 

[Indos]

So it is quite clear from the interview that PT RAI is asking Indonesian Aerospace ( PT Dirgantara Indonesia) to be part of R 80 development. I think if Indonesian next President is Ridwan Kamil, West Java Governor, that proposal has higher chance to be realized so that R 80 program will likely be a collaboration of private owned and state owned company like what Ilham Habibie wants. So far Ridwan Kamil is quite supportive for the program development.