Indonesia may see more sharia-based laws

[Nein]

First and foremost I'm not bothered by how an Islamic state is categorised according to Western values. What a theocracy is and whether you think it good or bad - really doesn't matter.

In an Islamic state, the head of the state is the caliph, the caliph is required amongst many things to have an adequate understanding of Islam and shariah, but ultimately he is not "better than anyone else". The definition of laws is in the hand of the judiciary and the legal community (which in an Islamic system requires them to be subject matter experts in Islam) but at no point are these people or the caliph "holier than anyone else.

Some think an Islamic State is the same as a Christian based theocracy especially a Catholic one.

Both so different because in Islam we dont have monks, popes, friars, nuns and all these hiearchy based clergyman.

 

[Brainsucker]

So what?

1. Shia are a small minority in Islam
2. Nobody claims divinity through bloodline or a right to rule.

It should come of no surprise that someone of European descent would attribute no value to knowing thier own bloodline and ancestry.

But what about 'habib'?

 

[Zsari]

If its our country we can do what we like and force whst we like

How would you like people to stop chinese forcing communism on people within china

Certainly, but Islam is not content in staying in any single country, that it seeks to expand and convert others. And when it grows to a significant size, then it'll demand it's law be enforced on the rest of the population. And you are wondering why is such religion not welcomed elsewhere.

 

[gambit]

First and foremost I'm not bothered by how an Islamic state is categorised according to Western values. What a theocracy is and whether you think it good or bad - really doesn't matter.

Our characterization is not for your approval. Am not saying that to be mean. Just a statement of fact.

In an Islamic state, the head of the state is the caliph, the caliph is required amongst many things to have an adequate understanding of Islam and shariah, but ultimately he is not "better than anyone else". The definition of laws is in the hand of the judiciary and the legal community (which in an Islamic system requires them to be subject matter experts in Islam) but at no point are these people or the caliph "holier than anyone else.

Celebrities believes they are 'better' than their fans. Almost to a man/woman. Politicians are no different. And you are telling us here that there are no religious idolatry of men in Islam? Politicians wields temporal power. Religious figures supposedly wields power from the divine. You are telling us -- with that virtual straight face on this forum -- that no imam believes he is above his flock?

 

[Nike]

Shariah is not new to Indonesia. Indonesia has been Muslim for nearly as long as there has been Islam. The colonialists ended shariah in Indonesia by force, just as they did across the Muslim world.

Your own people only truly saw greatness when they established shariah.

No lah, we are long being Hindhu, Budhist and Anymist compared when become Muslim

Btw, lot of Indonesian tend to view Maja

I'm a liberal nationalist. I prefere a socially conservative but secular and homogenous country. It is obvious that Indonesia needs more pressure to evolve into a homogenous society. In this very specific context, I would support a civilised Islam in Indonesian as being the ONLY religion in Indonesia.

In my Indonesia of Dreams, Chinese and other minorities have no place to live in; neither are Jihadists and Wannabe-whites welcomed.

One nation, one country, one race and one religion - my principles.

Indonesia comprises of hundreds ethnics, many religion , even Islam in Indonesia comprises of hundreds school of though there is no single uniformity in Indonesia. Thats what should make us a great country. Everyone should put their identity as Indonesian first, not for their ethnicity or religion

 

[nahtanbob]

I dont think so,Java is just one of the many Islands.

I looked up the numbers. 58% of Indonesia population lives in Java

 

[AUz]

Oh...Pleeeeze...

Yes, the sarcasm was intended for that one.

Take celebrity worship, for a moment. Why do we follow certain individuals? The accomplish great things, for one reason, right? Einstein had his groupies, just like Eric Clapton whose followers declared him 'God'. Am an Air Force guy, so Robin Olds is one figure I admire. An Army guy will go after Patton or Napoleon. Am sure you get the picture.

But it is not enough to simply follow a figure, we ALWAYS claim -- or at least try -- to have some kind of association with that figure. Robin Olds is Air Force, so am I. The USAF is the link between Olds and all who served in the USAF. Obviously, I cannot claim a blood or marriage tie with Olds, only his family members can. But the USAF is a link, nevertheless, even if it is just an philosophical link between Olds and me.

Muslims are no different.

In Shia Islam, those who wears black turbans claimed to have DIRECT descendency from the Prophet Mohammad, which somehow implies a higher status among Muslims. Why does the distinction matters? Albert Einstein's children did not really distinguish themselves, so what make the descendants of Mohammad significant to the point that each man makes it clear to other Muslims by way of a black turban?

Claiming some kind of link automatically implies authority about a particular subject. I can talk with some authority about the USAF and Robin Olds but not about the US Army and George Patton and his tanks. As a Jesuit educated Catholic, even a lapsed one, I can speak with some authority about Catholicism but not about Buddhism. The Jesuits are considered the 'intellectual commandos' of the Church, by the way.

So when a Shia Muslim displays a black turban, he is, at the very least, claimed elevated status in terms of education and wisdom regarding Islam. You say that there is no concept of a 'divine right of leadership' in Islam. I call BS on that. If the right is not of divine origin, then it is of (claimed) birth. It is human nature to make oneself stand apart from the ordinary even when one is supposed to be humble in character.

Shia Islam is like what? 10% of global Islam, and I am not even going to argue bc I am not Shia.

Secondly, lineage means nothing in Islam. Yes, people can claim higher status in social hierarchy but not by bloondlines or divine rights. Only by personal effort and achievement (whether in civil realm or the religious).

Anyways...thanks for the response.

Pragmatically, a theocracy does not require a claim of 'divine right' to govern in order to make the country a FUNCTIONAL theocracy. I will concede that the Western countries came from theocracies or highly theocratic foundations, but with the exception of the Vatican City, no Western country is as FUNCTIONALLY religious in character as the Muslim countries.

True that. There's no "christian" or "hindu" or "buddhist" countries in the world anymore. Secular-liberalism destroyed every other religion except Islam. There are only Islamic countries remaining on global level (From Algeria to Saudi Arabia to Nigeria (Muslim states) to Indonesia to Pakistan etc etc))

Shows the success of Islam on ideological level (forgetting the negatives or positives debate)---no?

Fact of the matter is that Islam has, uptil now, successfully defeated liberal-secularism on global level literally everywhere both giant ideologies/lifestyles came in contact with. The ONLY religious-cultural force to have done so successfully. Even rich, well-off Muslim societies (GCC, Malaysia, Turkey etc) are very practicing of Islam and Islam plays a central role in these countries' politics, laws, family life, social values, public sphere, and so on. Forget the gigantic Islamic world, even Muslims throughout the Western world...the heart of secular liberalism and free conscience--are relatively still very religious despite being highly educated, urbanized, integrated, and wealthy (example U.S Muslims).

Christianity/Judaism/Hindusim etc were easy...secularism/liberalism ran over them and made them pretty much irrelevant...but Islam, as I said, absolutely decimated liberal-secularism everywhere it faced. Hell, even in countries that were liberal/secular before, Islam changed the entire face of culture and lifestyle within a generation after decolonization. In Turkey, where secularism was actually forced down---Islam eventually won out and gain public prominence slowly....

(Note: I know Turkey is "liberal" compared to Pakistan and so on. Variations within global Islam exist, as to be expected---but relative to non-Muslims---my post stands factual and unchallenged).

What do you know about Indonesian culture?
FYI,there was never Sharia law in Indonesia,dont act like you know everything,dont insult people,be respectful.

I know more about Indonesian than you. Trust me....

Lived there for four years, know TONS of people from there...

I am very familiar with Indonesian flavor of Islam. They are not liberal-seculars like Frenchmen or even Americans or Latin Americans. A vast majority of Indonesians are traditional Muslims just like vast majority of people in Pakistan, Turkey, Egypt etc etc are your average Muslims. Not fanatics but not liberals either.

What do YOU know about Indonesia? I bet you have never even visited Bali, let alone living in real Indonesia.

Indonesian political system is rooted in "religious nationalism" as one scholar of political science working with us called it. Its not a "secular" country....

Google stats on Indonesians' views on various issues before you write more empty rhetoric. I don't want to spoon feed you

For a starter: 72% of Indonesians support making Shari'ah/Quran the official law of the land

This is PEW's survey for 2013-14....and Indonesian society have only became more Islamic since then. And this is not a random stat either. Survey after survey, study after study, research paper after research paper----all reveal the same pattern. An Islamic country with deeply religious Islamic society and culture

"BuT fOrGeT FAcTs!!! YOu DoNT KnOW AnyThiNg. InDonEsIa is SecUlaRRRR!!!" says dumb liberals trying to hide facts for their own personal agendas (not you per say---but many "Indonesians" on this thread )

Indonesia already has more than 442 legal ordinances inspired by Shari'ah implemented throughout the country (Not just Aceh).

A recent study found that more than 442 Shariah-based ordinances have been passed throughout the nation since 1999, when Jakarta gave provinces and districts substantial powers to make their own laws. These include regulations concerning female attire, the mixing of the sexes, and alcohol

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/12/world/asia/indonesia-sharia-law-aceh.html

Liberals think Shari'ah is like ISIS type butchery. And hence liberals ALWAYS keep losing since they dont even understand what they are arguing against.

 

[313ghazi]

No lah, we are long being Hindhu, Budhist and Anymist compared when become Muslim

Btw, lot of Indonesian tend to view Maja


Indonesia comprises of hundreds ethnics, many religion , even Islam in Indonesia comprises of hundreds school of though there is no single uniformity in Indonesia. Thats what should make us a great country. Everyone should put their identity as Indonesian first, not for their ethnicity or religion

Before mankind was human it was monkey. Do you want to swing from the trees too?

 

[Indos]

Won't 80% of population be Javanese Muslim ?

Javanese is around 45 %

 

[313ghazi]

Our characterization is not for your approval. Am not saying that to be mean. Just a statement of fact.


Celebrities believes they are 'better' than their fans. Almost to a man/woman. Politicians are no different. And you are telling us here that there are no religious idolatry of men in Islam? Politicians wields temporal power. Religious figures supposedly wields power from the divine. You are telling us -- with that virtual straight face on this forum -- that no imam believes he is above his flock?

Only an idiot would accept a celebrity as thier better. This cult of celebrity is ridiculous. They're glorified jesters, famous because they're good at entertaining you - that's it.

Similarly only an idiot would accept a cleric as his better. A cleric is human, fallible like the rest of us.

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh stated that Allah men are equal in the eyes of God, except in piety. There is no scorecard for piety, ultimately that is known only to Allah. Your outward acts of worship could all be for nothing if your inner intention is to be seen to be pious by mankind. If you want to understand Islam from an academic perspective read a book called "the beginning of guidance" by Imam Al Ghazali. He talks of the expected characteristics of a Muslim.

You are 100% correct when you say there are clerics who consider themselves better than us, and people who worship the ground they walk on. These people exist - but that is not Islam. Muslim society as a whole is illiterate about Islam. Our greatest challenge is to study it academically and realise what it was, before we turned it into what it is now.

In all seriousness anyone reading this post with the slightest bit of interest should read that book. It's not very long.

 

[nufix]

Look at these sharia supporting posters, posting their pro shariah Indonesia from the comfort of their host countries like UK and AUS. Guess shariah didnt work pretty well for you eh?

 

[AUz]

Look at these sharia supporting posters, posting their pro shariah Indonesia from the comfort of their host countries like UK and AUS. Guess shariah didnt work pretty well for you eh?

Literally the dumbest shit I ever read.

Lived in Saudi Arabia. Liked it pretty much.

Mobility is an economic issue, not a cultural ones. There are millions of Westerners living in Gulf, Malaysia and other parts of the world. Do they not like their “western culture” and hence settled in Sharia ruled Muslim countries?

Oh yeah, never mind...it’s all about the economic and career prospects. Same goes for Muslims.

Stop this idiotic cliche bullshit. Overwhelming majority of Muslims globally support Sharia....including more than 2/3 of Indonesian Muslims. Your bitching won’t change that, would it? Lol

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Literally the dumbest shit I ever read.

Lived in Saudi Arabia. Liked it pretty much.

Mobility is an economic issue, not a cultural ones. There are millions of Westerners living in Gulf, Malaysia and other parts of the world. Do they not like their “western culture” and hence settled in Sharia ruled Muslim countries?

Oh yeah, never mind...it’s all about the economic and career prospects. Same goes for Muslims.

Stop this idiotic cliche bullshit. Overwhelming majority of Muslims globally support Sharia....including more than 2/3 of Indonesian Muslims. Your bitching won’t change that, would it? Lol

Problem is that even 2/3 Indonesian Muslims supporting it is not enough. They have too many minorities.

 

[Indos]

I looked up the numbers. 58% of Indonesia population lives in Java

Sundanese is also living in Java, around 40 million. And many Sumatran like me living in big cities in Java (Jakarta, Surabaya, Bandung, Yogya etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundanese_people

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Certainly, but Islam is not content in staying in any single country, that it seeks to expand and convert others. And when it grows to a significant size, then it'll demand it's law be enforced on the rest of the population. And you are wondering why is such religion not welcomed elsewhere.

Yes. We will enforce it everywhere. Stop me if you can.

Indonesia is broken. I know that for many outsiders like me the country might even look like it's doing extraordinarily well especially in terms of business. But speak to Indonesians and you'll sense that the Indonesian society is at a turning point.

So, I don't know if the implementation of Sharia laws will change anything about the current situation in Indonesia. It could cause more harm than good to the country.

One thing, however, is clear: the principles of Pancasila are outdated and old fashioned.

Indonesia needs reformation.

The pancasila was a step backward.

No lah, we are long being Hindhu, Budhist and Anymist compared when become Muslim

Btw, lot of Indonesian tend to view Maja


Indonesia comprises of hundreds ethnics, many religion , even Islam in Indonesia comprises of hundreds school of though there is no single uniformity in Indonesia. Thats what should make us a great country. Everyone should put their identity as Indonesian first, not for their ethnicity or religion

Shariah holds the key to Indonesian freedom.
Compare the glorious Islamic period with the pre Islamic period of wars, conflicts, slavery and superstition in Indonesia and the world.

You do realise that I'm against any kind of Sharia? I support a secular state with the religion under total state control. Just like Atatürk did. However, I won't accept Christian missionaries disturbing our societal cohesion either. A Turk can be homosexual for all I care. I'm liberal in the way that I protect the privacy of my fellow citizens - and I support women's rights.
But we need religion as supportive tool in our identity construction to prevent our society from going crazy like many Western nations.

If am not wrong Aceh is the place with the lowest crime rates. Even crimes against minorities are unheard of.