Indonesia Defence Forum

[Ravager]

What happen with this talk about French??
Can someone please "bocorin" more?

Ask chesnut ... He's keeping things to his chest more than the rest of us combined ...




Time to run ....faar ...

 

[umigami]

Hmmm... ada yg nawarin janda muda kah?

 

[san.geuk]

Can you give me the link?
I'm looking for it for quite a while but can't find it.

Source?

my own conclusions after read some post there
https://www.def***talk.com/military/forums/t/indonesian-aero-news.9220/page-77

Croatia offered some secondhand rafale

 

[Gundala]

did you read something in def***talkforum, its quite make sense if the US reject our request on lighting, I think f35 request only to please some faction in dephan/TNI, not as a serious need for dephan to arms the airforce with lighting

umm yea but not really. If what def talk said is 100% accurate the UEA wont even have the chance to even ask for F-35 right? Politics change, threat change and technology change so nothing is written in the stone. But if to have F-35 mean that we have to harbour US troops or allowing P8 to use our airspace without us being able to reject or even ask the purpose of the flight in a PEACE TIME then we might as well be looking at another alternative.

It would be nice if US can propose F15EX with good package deal (eventho we might not be able to afford it) then to propose F16V in exchange for SU-35 being blocked, why? Cause those 2 fighter are completly different fighter with different purpose/usage. Granted, we might already have the Viper purchase along side of SU-35 but to ask us to replace SU-35 with Viper can be seen as a joke.

We all hate when China try to "bully" us with numerous CCG incidents, but what some of us dont know how in the last couple years after the SU-35 contract we have seen the US "bully"/preasure thru various channels via many kementrian. Not to mention other trade and diplomatic related things, which make some of us wonder, are they trying to pressure Russia or us?

So I think what we are trying to do is first even up the playing field with US then proceed with serious talk that could make everybody happy.

when our mindef go to US, and the 2nd strong man in the country goes opposite, how can they (the US) accept our commitment as a trustable partner?

Commitement and partnership goes both ways. There is reasons why the hercules purchased gantung after Mattis resigned. We can see this as leverage to give pressure to US to get what we want, or they can see this as being not so trusty partner. Just like when people saying they see the glass half empty where the other one say its half full right?

Look, the F-35 issue might not just be a Jet fighter issue related to its spec tech. But behind that there is a trust issue both parties need to work on. Can US trust us to get our hand on one of the most advanced technology fighter in the world (not leaking or giving its information to their adversary)? On the other hand can Indonesia really trust US for her support? Imho these two questions are the real deal behind the F-35 purchase plan.

 

[Ravager]

umm yea but not really. If what def talk said is 100% accurate the UEA wont even have the chance to even ask for F-35 right? Politics change, threat change and technology change so nothing is written in the stone. But if to have F-35 mean that we have to harbour US troops or allowing P8 to use our airspace without us being able to reject or even ask the purpose of the flight in a PEACE TIME then we might as well be looking at another alternative.

It would be nice if US can propose F15EX with good package deal (eventho we might not be able to afford it) then to propose F16V in exchange for SU-35 being blocked, why? Cause those 2 fighter are completly different fighter with different purpose/usage. Granted, we might already have the Viper purchase along side of SU-35 but to ask us to replace SU-35 with Viper can be seen as a joke.

We all hate when China try to "bully" us with numerous CCG incidents, but what some of us dont know how in the last couple years after the SU-35 contract we have seen the US "bully"/preasure thru various channels via many kementrian. Not to mention other trade and diplomatic related things, which make some of us wonder, are they trying to pressure Russia or us?

So I think what we are trying to do is first even up the playing field with US then proceed with serious talk that could make everybody happy.

Commitement and partnership goes both ways. There is reasons why the hercules purchased gantung after Mattis resigned. We can see this as leverage to give pressure to US to get what we want, or they can see this as being not so trusty partner. Just like when people saying they see the glass half empty where the other one say its half full right?

Look, the F-35 issue might not just be a Jet fighter issue related to its spec tech. But behind that there is a trust issue both parties need to work on. Can US trust us to get our hand on one of the most advanced technology fighter in the world (not leaking or giving its information to their adversary)? On the other hand can Indonesia really trust US for her support? Imho these two questions are the real deal behind the F-35 purchase plan.

Agreed on most of the account .
One of the reason prabowo shouted so loud about F35 was to send a message that we are going for a commitment and in return we also ask what is the reciprocating gesture to be had to satisfy both side . Even prabowo know that we aren't ready yet for such a toy . Just because opung mingling around the CCP garden as now everybody know it's only a matter of time before shit hit the fan . We are simply try to milk the best of both world that could offer before the swinging fest were started . Some people say that we arent honest enough and couldn't be trusted . Well , suprise . Suprise .... National interest doesn't mean we have to be bound on such adventurism spirit that permeated in western block today .
Why do you think the Austrian card are still in the table ?? By design we are inherently allready in the western camp . But it doesn't mean we don't have our own idea and interest..

 

[Nike]

Agreed on most of the account .
One of the reason prabowo shouted so loud about F35 was to send a message that we are going for a commitment and in return we also ask what is the reciprocating gesture to be had to satisfy both side . Even prabowo know that we aren't ready yet for such a toy . Just because opung mingling around the CCP garden as now everybody know it's only a matter of time before shit hit the fan . We are simply try to milk the best of both world that could offer before the swinging fest were started . Some people say that we arent honest enough and couldn't be trusted . Well , suprise . Suprise .... National interest doesn't mean we have to be bound on such adventurism spirit that permeated in western block today .
Why do you think the Austrian card are still in the table ?? By design we are inherently allready in the western camp . But it doesn't mean we don't have our own idea and interest..

F-35 bargaining is not from Indonesia side actually, i can give my account personally on that. The offer actually first came from the other side of the OCEAN!!! That's why a lot of bargaining chips and consideration must be calculated from days one, including on how in the past Indonesia feel we can't handle the safety issue (regarding the infrastructure and intelligent data thing and in the end jeopardize the cooperation of many Nations in the region). But now, somehow, our side found something ominous regarding the South China Sea issue, including China-Taiwan relationship and want to bring our military into another level as soon as possible even when it feel being coerced and unnatural.

 

[Ravager]

F-35 bargaining is not from Indonesia side actually, i can give my account personally on that. The offer actually first came from the other side of the OCEAN!!! That's why a lot of bargaining chips and consideration must be calculated from days one, including on how in the past Indonesia feel we can't handle the safety issue (regarding the infrastructure and intelligent data thing and in the end jeopardize the cooperation of many Nations in the region). But now, somehow, our side found something ominous regarding the South China Sea issue, including China-Taiwan relationship and want to bring our military into another level as soon as possible even when it feel being coerced and unnatural.

Now that spooky allrite ....

To be honest i'm one of those realistic guy that never believe there is such thing as free lunch , nevertheless with the buffet was also included .
As i said before it's in our nature that we are gravitating toward the western world because like it or not we have a very opposing ideas interest with the mainland . also the fact that we do have the depth edges that couldn't never be rivalled by the like of red dot do regardless of their more advanced and established infrastructure and tactical wise we were positioned in such a perfect springboard by a nature put us in the very logical choice for the US to put their chips on . It's just things were coming in too fast and too hectic for my taste . Somehow the word cannon fodder that comes as bulwark were keep ringing in my head .
Mark my word ... when shits do hit the fan . By their insatiable apetites global order were never be same all over again . And brother .... Either we are making it or breaking it in this era .

Sigh

 

[Nike]

And now she is handle economy issues

She should do what our soldier do with the kids instead, but hey she is proclaimed speaks for the Papuan although i don't know which one is put her as reps.

Those smile and curiousity can't be faked

 

[nufix]

And now she is handle economy issues

View attachment 680427
She should do what our soldier do with the kids instead, but hey she is proclaimed speaks for the Papuan although i don't know which one is put her as reps.

View attachment 680428View attachment 680429View attachment 680430View attachment 680431
Those smile and curiousity can't be faked

She is a whore and is whoring only for money. Like hell she did this totally pro bono.

 

[Ravager]

What is the right word for an attention whore . Justice champion pretender while always try to leverage and flaunting her self like a peacock do ??

But , i can't blame the papuan tho' they are just guilible and susciptible for a honey trap of palse hope and dreams

 

[Ruhnama]

And now she is handle economy issues

View attachment 680427
She should do what our soldier do with the kids instead, but hey she is proclaimed speaks for the Papuan although i don't know which one is put her as reps.

View attachment 680428View attachment 680429View attachment 680430View attachment 680431
Those smile and curiousity can't be faked

If verkomeng jump to papua jungle, follow this "guerilla", life with then in jungle etc or maybe life in papua and meet with member of unwlmp etc (switch to indonesia biar ga salah) itu mgkn masih dimaklumi klo si komeng mau bicarain papua krna orgnya ad d lapangan nah dia di aussie, ga pernah ke papua lgsg sok bicara papua. Heran.

 

[¿Por qué?]

umm yea but not really. If what def talk said is 100% accurate the UEA wont even have the chance to even ask for F-35 right? Politics change, threat change and technology change so nothing is written in the stone. But if to have F-35 mean that we have to harbour US troops or allowing P8 to use our airspace without us being able to reject or even ask the purpose of the flight in a PEACE TIME then we might as well be looking at another alternative.

It would be nice if US can propose F15EX with good package deal (eventho we might not be able to afford it) then to propose F16V in exchange for SU-35 being blocked, why? Cause those 2 fighter are completly different fighter with different purpose/usage. Granted, we might already have the Viper purchase along side of SU-35 but to ask us to replace SU-35 with Viper can be seen as a joke.

We all hate when China try to "bully" us with numerous CCG incidents, but what some of us dont know how in the last couple years after the SU-35 contract we have seen the US "bully"/preasure thru various channels via many kementrian. Not to mention other trade and diplomatic related things, which make some of us wonder, are they trying to pressure Russia or us?

So I think what we are trying to do is first even up the playing field with US then proceed with serious talk that could make everybody happy.

Commitement and partnership goes both ways. There is reasons why the hercules purchased gantung after Mattis resigned. We can see this as leverage to give pressure to US to get what we want, or they can see this as being not so trusty partner. Just like when people saying they see the glass half empty where the other one say its half full right?

Look, the F-35 issue might not just be a Jet fighter issue related to its spec tech. But behind that there is a trust issue both parties need to work on. Can US trust us to get our hand on one of the most advanced technology fighter in the world (not leaking or giving its information to their adversary)? On the other hand can Indonesia really trust US for her support? Imho these two questions are the real deal behind the F-35 purchase plan.

I agree with you (again). If the U.S. are asking too much in return for just a squadron of F-35 then we better looking for the alternatives.

In fact this is probably a good news. Now we can switch our fighter jet procurement policy to the one which we can maintain consistently for decades to come.

First, we will never ever buy new fighter from the U.S., not even F-16V. We will only deal with the U.S. for freebies/EDA F-16s.

We have vast experience in dealing with old F-16 (including maintenance, etc) so it's easy for us to operate 100-200 EDA F-16s.

We have to take out the U.S. from the fighter procurement equation or at least make them as a constant variable. Placing them only as freebie jets provider will do just that, as I imagine they wouldn't care for our political allegiance/compass for just some 200 old unused F-16s.

Second, let's just turn our heads for the new fighters procurement to non-U.S. providers. Since CAATSA still active then Europe would do just fine.

Eurofighter Typhoon or Rafale are both good choices. Fighter jets technology-wise, Europe will become more and more advanced and independent in the future. So we can expect more development and options as well.

So this policy of buying new fighters from Europe and only EDA/freebies from the U.S. will help us to fulfill our needs not only to meet MEF 2024 target, but also to use as our stable & consistent reference for decades to come.

 

[Nike]

Some said there is genocide and militarization in Papua happened right now, but it is our military who provide security, healthcare services and even helping in education right now in the most deepest depth of jungle and remote parts of Papua until infrastructure can be built to reach them and allow civillian institution reach them. The case had been happened in early days of Kalimantan and Sulawesi people during 50 to 70 decades

Those smile of kids can't be faked at all

 

[Ravager]

I agree with you (again). If the U.S. are asking too much in return for just a squadron of F-35 then we better looking for the alternatives.

In fact this is probably a good news. Now we can switch our fighter jet procurement policy to the one which we can maintain consistently for decades to come.

First, we will never ever buy new fighter from the U.S., not even F-16V. We will only deal with the U.S. for freebies/EDA F-16s.

We have vast experience in dealing with old F-16 (including maintenance, etc) so it's easy for us to operate 100-200 EDA F-16s.

We have to take out the U.S. from the fighter procurement equation or at least make them as a constant variable. Placing them only as freebie jets provider will do just that, as I imagine they wouldn't care for our political allegiance/compass for just some 200 old unused F-16s.

Second, let's just turn our heads for the new fighters procurement to non-U.S. providers. Since CAATSA still active then Europe would do just fine.

Eurofighter Typhoon or Rafale are both good choices. Fighter jets technology-wise, Europe will become more and more advanced and independent in the future. So we can expect more development and options as well.

So this policy of buying new fighters from Europe and only EDA/freebies from the U.S. will help us to fulfill our needs not only to meet MEF 2024 target, but also to use as our stable & consistent reference for decades to come.

Hold your horses a bit bro ..... Nothing was certain as yet . The negotiation were very much still heated as now....
Too much things have to be considered and agreed upon . Because we are in for a long ride . But the RI bottom line are ... There would never be a foreign military permanent base upon the indonesia soil . Ever

 

[Nike]

Hold your horses a bit bro ..... Nothing was certain as yet . The negotiation were very much still heated as now....
Too much things have to be considered and agreed upon . Because we are in for a long ride . But the RI bottom line are ... There would never be a foreign military permanent base upon the indonesia soil . Ever

For R&R like what Singkies provided is actually quite tempting