Indonesia Defence Forum

[Gen3115]

Well, actually that's the point. Gripen is basically cheaper version of F-16V. So if we go down Gripen route it'd be to replace the F-16.

Maybe this is very very unpopular opinion, but let's dissect this option for awhile.

Imagine replacing all of our F-16 with Gripen. So Gripen will be our single engine fleet.

How about our big baddie? Well, we can go for F-15 or F-18 Shornet (I love F-15 so I prefer F-15).

So we go from our original configuration of Su-35 + F-16V, to F-15 (ideally EX haha) + Gripen.

This F-15EX + Gripen configuration is giving us some advantages than other alternatives of :

1. SU-35 + F-16V
2. Typhoon + F-16V
3. Rafale + F-16V

We can expect some of these pros with F-15EX + Gripen than the other 3 configurations:

- probably more jets, obviously in the single engine side

- lower total operating cost. The very low CPFH of Gripen ($4700 vs $8000 of F-16V) can help to balance out the high CPFH of twin-engine fleet.

- MRO related stuff. Since we have F-16 already, we can assume that there will be no major problem of getting MRO for F-15. But the MRO issue for SU-35, Typhoon, and Rafale surely can't compete against Gripen.

- we can still maintain our current policy to have 2 different sets of fighter (the U.S. + non-U.S.).

- flexibility on weaponry. Gripen can fire almost all that F-15s have. SAAB also already started to introduce AESA for their Gripen.

Can we be clear first, are we talking about Gripen C/D or Gripen NG (E/F)? They're quite a leap with each other though

I don't see the point of replacing the F-16 with the Gripen especially if you're referring to the Gripen C/D which would actually be a downgrade. They are in the same class and the Gripen won't bring much difference in capabilities in the single engine segment, not too mention introducing a more foreign fighter would introduce more costs. Plus the $4700 figure from what I read is for the Gripen C/D, the numbers for the Gripen E/F (NG) aren't there yet considering its new and only a few are undergoing tests currently and its probably going to be a tad bit more costly than the Gripen C/D also considering its a major upgrade of the Gripen by giving it AESA radar as well as newer engine (F414 compared to the RM12 (F404 based) on the Gripen C/D). If you want to compare F-16V it should be with Gripen NG since both are latest developments of each airframe, Gripen C/D is more comparable to earlier F-16C/D while F-16V is comparable to Gripen NG.

And btw if you want to pair the Gripen (Gripen E/F in this case) with a twin-engine, its better to pair it with the Super Hornet. I think engine commonality is a big cost saver and both the Gripen and Super Hornet uses F414's although not interchangeable unlike some of the F100's and F110's on the F-16 and F-15 pairing. In this case Gripen + Super Hornet or F-16 + F-15 pairing is more compatible IMO. Another problem with the Gripen in my opinion is its to short-legged I think in terms of fuel and range.

Plus its no use having the Gripen if the main goal is to have different 2 sets of fighters of US and non-US. The reason I call the Gripen a Swedish F-16 is because it is literally a Swedish American jet, half of its components are American so no use there, the other European options especially the Rafale is better for this particular problem.



I just don't think its worth transitioning to another single engine fighter when its not going to introduce much difference in capability despite cheaper CPFH, you also need to think about the cost of transition. The part I agree with you is the armament flexibility, the Gripen can utilize both American AIM-120's, AIM-9's as well as European IRIS-T, Meteor, etc.

But I get your point and partly agree though, If I was building an air force from scratch the Gripen is something I would certainly be looking at first.

No, it's not hard for me to see that the Air Force's systems and infrastructures are geared towards the US, but it's also seems that it's hard for you to see that the Air Force didn't procure, maintain, upgrade and even aimed to supplement their existing multi sourced fighters because they think that they are all useless, or didn't have specific roles to fill, or because it's absolutely necessary not to put all of their eggs in one basket.

Trust me, if at some point the Air Force ever felt that there's no point in keeping hold of any type of fighters that they have, or if they felt that maintaining a certain type of fighters cost an arm and a leg, then they will happily discard those planes without fanboys like you and your buddies ever need to waste your breath on repeated marketing spins over and over again.

Then why keep saying that US 'fanboys' will never mention about cost, infrastructure, training when thats mostly what US fanboys like Chestnut keep talking about, I mean they probably talk about that more compared to network centric capabilities and engine commonality (which is also considered as infrastructure in this case). Its not that hard to realize either that a jet like the F-16V and F-15 or even the F-35, the jet that is literally meant to replace the F-16 among its operators in the future would probably be more easier on on the introduction cost, infrastructure and training part since both our personnel and pilots would be more familiar with it and already have some experience with them.

And are you sure the AU actually gets to decide what they want to do? I mean if thats the case, I'm all for it. But thats not really what I've been seeing and been told at least hehe

 

[Chestnut]

It's funny when he calls everyone but him a fanboy but he resorts to ad hominems, strawman arguments, baseless claims such as "Ace Flanker pilot can't transition to another jet.", and is pretty much denying multiple different sources that are contrary to his opinions by accusing them of having a sinister agenda.

Pretty ironic really.

 

[umigami]

And did you know user (AL) said that they don't need submarine with AIP right now? That makes me laughed so hard

Kesannya kayak susah diajak maju?

 

[umigami]

oh, and HAPPY PAGE 2222 for everyone..

 

[Cromwell]

And did you know user (AL) said that they don't need submarine with AIP right now? That makes me laughed so hard

There are TNI-AL interests, Ministry interests, House of Representative interests and at lesser extent BPPT interests also at some point they often contradict one another. Don't asume those on Representatives are clear, at many times they're corrupt and speak to represent vendors interests. I know some are still representing Rosoboronexport lobbists and still pushing for Kilo despite the service itself, they no longer want it

 

[mandala]

Pic of Indonesian Navy Type 206 submarines took over ceremony in 1997 of the first 2 units named KRI Nagarangsang-403 and KRI Nagabanda-404. All 5 units were eventually cancelled due to 1997 Financial Crisis.

https://m.facebook.com/satselhiukencana/photos/a.327826370603199.98600.327785550607281/1149148458470982?locale=ar_AR

 

[Chestnut]

US planes have the cheapest maintenance cost? Could you please elaborate further and provide valid data related to this conjectures and assumptions of yours?

Please share and enlighten us with data pertaining the CPFH for the F-16 compared to the Gripen, for example. Or the CPFH of the F-18, F-15, and even the F-35 (planes which I mentioned to also have notoriously high maintenance cost) compared to the Typhoon, Rafale or Su-35, for example.

This should prove to be more fruitful than uttering fanboyish statements such as "my toys are cheaper to maintain because I said so!" a very laymen viewpoint which curiously yet again, sparked no response, scrutiny or inquiry whatsoever from your fellow "industry expert" Yankophile US tech fanboys just because your standpoints aligned with their interests.

Operating cost of a Su-30 is roughly around $35,000. For a Mig-29 it's around $20,000. That's for Myanmar, a country with a larger base of Russian equipment than we do. It would be larger for us.

Myanmar confirm Russian military aircraft order - Sukhoi Su-30. | FocusCore Myanmar

company incorporation services, ongoing corporate secretarial services, payroll & bookkeeping services

myanmarcs.focuscoregroup.com

An F-15EX's operating costs is estimated to be around $29,000, but is projected to decrease to $25,000 as production lines increase.

F-15EX is a boon to Boeing, but it might not break the international fighter market

Is the F-15EX ready for the competitive international field?

www.defensenews.com

For an F/A-18 Super Hornet, the operating costs is around $11,000 by a DoD estimate.

Why Sloppy Accounting Is Destroying the US Fighter Inventory

The DoD's cost per flight hour of military aircraft misses the mark. FighterSweep's financial expert Brett Odom gives the real cost breakdown

sofrep.com

For an F-16, it costs around $8,000.

The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]

Modern military fighter aircraft are extremely expensive to procure with the unit cost for a single F-35A coming to $98 million, according to Lockheed Martin. That program has already gone down as the most expensive weapons system in history and it's set to cost $1.509 trillion through to 2070...

www.forbes.com

A Gripen C/D costs around $4,700 in 2012. Adjusting to current inflation it is $5,300. Keep in mind this is the C/D. But as @Gen3115 has said, we currently don't know how much the E/F would cost. But a new aircraft with few operators it would likely be more.

Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane’s

The study conducted by IHS Jane's Aerospace and Defense Consulting, compared the operational costs of the Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 aircraft.

stratpost.com

Although yes, CPFH is difficult to determine because of a variety of factors, it still provides a basic idea of how much it would be. And from these few sources alone you can already tell the big difference of operating costs regarding US/EU aircraft compared to Russian aircraft.

So again, us "fanboys" are not making baseless assumptions as you claim. Everything we say has been said before by actual professionals. The only fanboy here is you.

 

[Nike]

Operating cost of a Su-30 is roughly around $35,000. For a Mig-29 it's around $20,000.

Myanmar confirm Russian military aircraft order - Sukhoi Su-30. | FocusCore Myanmar

company incorporation services, ongoing corporate secretarial services, payroll & bookkeeping services

myanmarcs.focuscoregroup.com

An F-15EX's operating costs is estimated to be around $29,000, but is projected to decrease to $25,000 as production lines increase.

F-15EX is a boon to Boeing, but it might not break the international fighter market

Is the F-15EX ready for the competitive international field?

www.defensenews.com

For an F/A-18 Super Hornet, the operating costs is around $11,000 by a DoD estimate.

Why Sloppy Accounting Is Destroying the US Fighter Inventory

The DoD's cost per flight hour of military aircraft misses the mark. FighterSweep's financial expert Brett Odom gives the real cost breakdown

sofrep.com

For an F-16, it costs around $8,000.

The Hourly Cost Of Operating The U.S. Military's Fighter Fleet [Infographic]

Modern military fighter aircraft are extremely expensive to procure with the unit cost for a single F-35A coming to $98 million, according to Lockheed Martin. That program has already gone down as the most expensive weapons system in history and it's set to cost $1.509 trillion through to 2070...

www.forbes.com

A Gripen C/D costs around $4,700 in 2012. Adjusting to current inflation it is $5,300. Keep in mind this is the C/D. But as @Gen3115 has said, we currently don't know how much the E/F would cost. But a new aircraft with few operators it would likely be more.

Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane’s

The study conducted by IHS Jane's Aerospace and Defense Consulting, compared the operational costs of the Gripen, Lockheed Martin F-16, Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault’s Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and the F-35 aircraft.

stratpost.com

Although yes, CPFH is difficult to determine because of a variety of factors, it still provides a basic idea of how much it would be. And from these few sources alone you can already tell the big difference of operating costs regarding US/EU aircraft compared to Russian aircraft.

So again, us "fanboys" are not making baseless assumptions as you claim. Everything we say has been said before by actual professionals. The only fanboy here is you.

Keep in mind why i hate Gripendor salesman who is notoriously keeping to Fed most people with their Shady claim of cheapo operational cost without mentioning which study they are using. Swedish base cost or other user requirement daily operational cost. Keep in mind when a far away country like Indonesia or Thailand bought fighter like Gripen without other user base in region, CPFH will tend to shot up significantly cause the cost logistic issue and OEM arrangements in which SAAB Aviation doesn't have much logistic warehouse and reliable Maintenance facility in the region while Lockheed Martin and Boeing had considerable presence here in Singapore and Australia. The case of South Africa should be under our scrutiny when even SANDF can't get fast moving spares on time and must spend much of their fleets idly.


Btw study about cpfh of F16 at US air base, even the cost will vary in degree when an Air base had higher utilities Rates their cost will tends lower compared to other bases.

2005 US dollar prices of CPFH of F 16 block 52 is around 3,300 US dollar per hour. Adjust inflation Rates, they cost more or less around 4000-5000 US Dollar

 

[Nike]

Bought more F16, and get deal to produce their fast moving spares parts

 

[umigami]

Keep in mind why i hate Gripendor salesman who is notoriously keeping to Fed most people with their Shady claim of cheapo operational cost without mentioning which study they are using. Swedish base cost or other user requirement daily operational cost. Keep in mind when a far away country like Indonesia or Thailand bought fighter like Gripen without other user base in region, CPFH will tend to shot up significantly cause the cost logistic issue and OEM arrangements in which SAAB Aviation doesn't have much logistic warehouse and reliable Maintenance facility in the region while Lockheed Martin and Boeing had considerable presence here in Singapore and Australia. The case of South Africa should be under our scrutiny when even SANDF can't get fast moving spares on time and must spend much of their fleets idly.


Btw study about cpfh of F16 at US air base, even the cost will vary in degree when an Air base had higher utilities Rates their cost will tends lower compared to other bases.

2005 US dollar prices of CPFH of F 16 block 52 is around 3,300 US dollar per hour. Adjust inflation Rates, they cost more or less around 4000-5000 US Dollar

Do the same logic can be put on Russian's KNAAPO here because vietnam operate su30mk2 too??

 

[Nike]

Do the same logic can be put on Russian's KNAAPO here because vietnam operate su30mk2 too??

Russian is much worse actually, they solely monopolized the sales of fast moving spares parts and including battery. And unlike western OEM who tend to divisionalized the working share and compete with each other, Russian OEM as sole manufacturing unit they can shoot up the prices without warning. China and India suffer much from Russian treatment, and that's why India paid premium to getting HAL and other subsidiaries able to produce fast moving spares and too they can't sold their own Made spares abroad under the agreement. China paid a lot in the past to license producing Flanker, and they got many defect design provided by the Russian and research many parts for the China being able to produce them.

 

[Fl0gger]

Dirgahayu 75 TNI AL Jalasveva Jaya Mahe

 

[Nike]

Don't know why there is still Springfield model either 1861 or 1863 here in Indonesia

 

[Gundala]

Bought more F16, and get deal to produce their fast moving spares parts

I like this. Siapa tahu we can rakit those viper here as well.

 

[nufix]

Don't know why there is still Springfield model either 1861 or 1863 here in Indonesia

View attachment 668497View attachment 668498View attachment 668499

In Riau, you would easily find antique rifles among village people like this one and they pass this to their children as heirloom. Normally, their ancestors used to be soldiers/warriors in the sultanate of Siak Sri Inderapura which was quite westernized at that time.