Indonesia Defence Forum

[Indos]

Just sick to read Ananda Anti KF21 posts in other forum (DT), the reason he supports Rafale acquisition is because he wants Indonesia participation in KF 21/IFX program death, just see how he said over and over again about KF21 program is 50:50 and wants Indonesian Air Force just stick on the Rafale and let go KF21/IFX program. He still tries to go against the program even until this 2022 year.....

That guy is even not go against crazy 140 billion USD Prabowo defense acquisition plan for just over 5 years period, which is AlhamduliLLAH is not realized since it can kill our local defense industry growth. I still remember how he as finance person try to show some financial route to accomplish that crazy plan that will harm Indonesia long term ambition to be independence in defense acquisition program.

This must be because he hates Indonesia participation in KF 21 program, which I also find in some Indonesian people (very tiny minority) for what ever reason. The clue thing maybe due to Singapore connection. He was in support of Singapore when I debate about Indonesia vs Singapore for future possible military clash and defense industry comparison.

I cannot debate with him anymore there since I get permanent banned by Moderator (New Zealand and Singaporean Moderator) despite what I said is not against forum rule and has been proven true so many times like the acquisition of Russian Naval gun, and others

Well, he said KF 21 cannot give political points for Jokowi because he said the result cannot be seen in Jokowi term. Look like he doesnt know that Indonesia will get the fifth prototype of KF21/IFX inshaAllah soon, the fourth prototype for instant has already been assembled and look like will be completed soon. April roll out in 2021 is already a result of KF21/IFX program. We can see Indonesian people support if we see the comment section of KF21 related news in mainstream media like CNBC Indonesia.

The EMD phase is also started during Jokowi period, since Jokowi comes to power in 2014 while EMD phase started in 2015, including the deal between Indonesian and Korea was done during Jokowi period to start EMD phase. Jokowi will also be remembered as President who stay and commit with long term R&D program despite the start of the program was in SBY period ( 2009-MOU, 2011 contract for first phase )

The fifth prototype for Indonesia will be delivered to Indonesia and tested by Indonesian engineers and Indonesian test pilot in Indonesian Aerospace inshaAllah. The delivery will likely happen within Jokowi period, the most possible time is in 2023, just when the political domestic scene will be quite hot since it will be a campaign period for 2024 Presidential election where the first voting will happen in the month of February.

Even Jokowi present in KF21/IFX roll out ceremony in April 2021 through teleconference has already given him some political score that will improve people support toward him.

After I cross check by asking to one of Indonesian KF21/IFX engineers, it turn out that fifth prototype will only be given to Indonesia after Type Certificate is taken, possibly over end of 2026 or beginning of 2027 if the program goes as plan and runs with no significant obstacles.

Regardless of that, KF21/IFX program has shown its result during Jokowi administration, contrary to one clueles Indonesian member statement in DT forum.

Prototype roll out in April 2021 and possible maiden flight in the month of June this year, and also subsequent test flight of first prototype have already a result of the program in which current Government can advertise if they want.

More over, if the maiden flight is successful inshaAllah, will likely create another hype in many Indonesian media, mainstream and non mainstream ones, after first hype made by the roll out event in 2021.

I hope any Indonesian Presiden candidate for 2024 election can capitalize the maiden flight event by making political statement in supporting Indonesian local defense industry on going development program like KF21/ IFX program.

At least Ridwan Kamil, West Java Governor where Indonesian Aerospace office and factory is located, where he is also the only one who has publicly announced his candidacy as President in 2024 Election, can actually boost his image and show his plan on defense sector during that time that is pro local defense industry to gain people support.

 

[Indos]

Interesting discussion Tomorrow, several politicians and defense analysts about Prabowo fighter acquisition plan. For me, just stick to current program where MRCA acquisition program will be only about 1.1 billion USD for entire 2020-2024 period (back by foreign loan) to fill our F 5 squadron with 6 Rafale jet.

In the end of 2026/ beginning of 2027, our KF21/IFX prototype for PTDI will be arrived in Indonesia inshaAllah, and the preparation for mass production will be started. The time is coincidently relatively similar with 6 Rafale planes coming. The KF21/IFX prototype coming has potentially quicker than the first Rafale coming out of 6 planes being bought.

Our 6 Rafale needs 56 months to be delivered after the activation of the contract. From Dahnil statement in TV interview, the activation actually hasnt been done by Minister of Finance, it was just the signing of the contract for 6 planes.

In my opinion, just by looking to the plane looks, our people will likely be more hype on KF 21/IFX appearance in PTDI tarmac then Rafale plane in Indonesian Air Force base tarmac where the price has also been set around half price of Rafale.

KF21/IFX

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492743471920476163

 

[Zarvan]

Interesting discussion Tomorrow, several politicians and defense analysts about Prabowo fighter acquisition plan. For me, just stick to current program where MRCA acquisition program will be only about 1.1 billion USD for entire 2020-2024 period (back by foreign loan) to fill our F 5 squadron with 6 Rafale jet.

In the end of 2026/ beginning of 2027, our KF21/IFX prototype for PTDI will be arrived in Indonesia inshaAllah, and the preparation for mass production will be started. The time is coincidently relatively similar with 6 Rafale planes coming. The KF21/IFX prototype coming has potentially quicker than the first Rafale coming out of 6 planes being bought.

Our 6 Rafale needs 56 months to be delivered after the activation of the contract. From Dahnil statement in TV interview, the activation actually hasnt been done by Minister of Finance, it was just the signing of the contract for 6 planes.

In my opinion, just by looking to the plane looks, our people will likely be more hype on KF 21/IFX appearance in PTDI tarmac then Rafale plane in Indonesian Air Force base tarmac.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492743471920476163

By the way other forums you are part of. Encourage more Indonesians to join the forum.

 

[Wergeland]

I love Indonesia. Was in Bali, Sulawesi and Komodo in 2011. Was a wonderful trip.

How many subs do Indonesia have?

 

[Indos]

I love Indonesia. Was in Bali, Sulawesi and Komodo in 2011. Was a wonderful trip.

How many subs do Indonesia have?

Currently 4 where previously we had 5 submarines

One sung and the crew sacrificed their live during the duty for their God and country, so I dont know whether this accident will bring ashamed feeling to any one in Defense Ministry or Armed Force who like to get kick back from ordering defense equipment from foreign countries ???

We will face our God soon or later and next live will be very long, whether in Heaven or Hell

 

[Wergeland]

Currently 4 where previously we had 5 submarines

One sung and the crew sacrificed their live during the duty for their God and country, so I dont know whether this accident will bring ashamed feeling to any one in Defense Ministry or Armed Force who like to get kick back from ordering defense equipment from foreign countries ???

We will face our God soon or later and next live will be very long, whether in Heaven or Hell

View attachment 815156

Thats what i like about Indonesia Army; both professional, fearless and always mindful of Allah. Allah always reward his servants. Alhamdulillah.

Indonesia probably would benefit from a bigger submarine fleet. You could deploy a lot midget subs and small subs. Could have a naval base on every major island.

 

[Indos]

Thats what i like about Indonesia Army; both professional, fearless and always mindful of Allah. Allah always reward his servants. Alhamdulillah.

Indonesia probably would benefit from a bigger submarine fleet. You could deploy a lot midget subs and small subs. Could have a naval base on every major island.

That is right, our former Armed Force General also said the same thing that what we are doing in this world is basically to do Ibadah for our God (Allah SWT). This kind of intention should be our real intention in any of our duty in this life, that is what he wants to say which is actually based on what we have learned in Islam.

Former Armed Force General, Hadi Cahyanto saying that in the inaguration of new Armed Force Chief

This President Secretary official Youtube channel.

------------------------------------------

Yup midget submarine has already been in the plan, the design has already been made by our government research agency

But at the meantime, we are about to build Scorpene submarine with the help of Naval Group inshaAllah. There is MOU with Naval Group for submarine building with PT PAL Indonesia. That is to finish the learning curve to build complete submarine after 3 Changbogo deal with South Korea

 

[Mata Elang]

A list of Rp 200 T defense equipment that the US will likely sell to Indonesia in addition to the F-15.

In a release from the United States Defense and Security Cooperation Agency, there are 31 types of goods and services on the list of defense equipment, especially F-15 fighter jets, which the US may sell to Indonesia.

Here are some defense equipment that Indonesia plans to buy from the US:

1. 36 F-15ID fighter jets;
2. 87 F110-GE-129 or F100-PW-229 engines (72 installed, 15 spares);
3. 45 AN/APG-82(v)1 Advanced Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radars (35 installed, 9 spares);
4. 45 Eagle Passive Active Warning Survivability Systems (EPAWSS) AN/ALQ-250 (36 installed, 9 spares);
5. 48 Advanced Display Core Processor (ADCP) II digital computers (36 installed, 12 spares);
6. 80 Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (JHMCS) (72 installed, 8 spare parts);
7. 92 Embedded Global Positioning Systems (GPS)/Inertial Navigation System (EGI) security devices;
8. 40 LANTIRN AN/AAQ-13 navigation pods (36 installed, 4 spares);
9. 40 Sniper Advanced Targeting Pods (ATP) AN/AAQ-33 (36 installed, 4 spares);
10. 156 LAU-128 launchers (144 installed, 12 spares);
11. 40 M61A "Vulcan" weapon systems (36 installed, 4 spares);
12. Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) training pod (P5 CTS) and supporting equipment;
13. MS-110 Recce Pods;
14. AN/ASG-34 Infrared Search and Track International;
15. AN/ALE-47 counter-measures;
16. AN/PYQ Simple Key Loaders;
17. Additional navigation, communication security, and cryptographic equipment;
18. Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support;
19. Joint Mission Planning Systems (JMPS);
20. Night Vision Goggles (NVG), support equipment and spare parts;
21. Conformal fuel tank;
22. Husk and flare;
23. Fighter jet support equipment and personnel;
24. Travel pods, precision measurement equipment laboratories, calibrations, and simulators;
25. Spare parts, repair and return services;
26. Maps, publications, and technical documents;
27. Studies and surveys;
28. Software and software support;
29. Equipment for training and training of personnel;
30. Technical and logistical support services from the US Government and contractors;
31. Various other related components.

 

[Indos]

Interesting discussion Tomorrow, several politicians and defense analysts about Prabowo fighter acquisition plan. For me, just stick to current program where MRCA acquisition program will be only about 1.1 billion USD for entire 2020-2024 period (back by foreign loan) to fill our F 5 squadron with 6 Rafale jet.

In the end of 2026/ beginning of 2027, our KF21/IFX prototype for PTDI will be arrived in Indonesia inshaAllah, and the preparation for mass production will be started. The time is coincidently relatively similar with 6 Rafale planes coming. The KF21/IFX prototype coming has potentially quicker than the first Rafale coming out of 6 planes being bought.

Our 6 Rafale needs 56 months to be delivered after the activation of the contract. From Dahnil statement in TV interview, the activation actually hasnt been done by Minister of Finance, it was just the signing of the contract for 6 planes.

In my opinion, just by looking to the plane looks, our people will likely be more hype on KF 21/IFX appearance in PTDI tarmac then Rafale plane in Indonesian Air Force base tarmac where the price has also been set around half price of Rafale.

KF21/IFX
View attachment 815330

https://twitter.com/x/status/1492743471920476163

Based on Ms Connie revealation on that Zoom meeting, latest Ratas ( Limited Cabinet Meeting ) in December 2021, President only allow Rp 60 trillion for defense equipment spending for 2022 fiscal period or about 4.2 billion USD. Minister of Planning and Minister of Finance were also present at that meeting.

That amount is for whole Armed Force defense equipment spending, not limited to Air Force only, even within Air Force there are many programs like Military Satellite, transport plane, radar, AWACS plane, drone and others for 2020-2024 program.

So this new 1.1 billion USD contract is already settle for 6 Rafale, we still have around 3.1 billion USD defense equipment spending for the rest of 2022. According to the whole spending program supported by Planning Minister and Finance Minister, 1.1 billion USD for MRCA program is for 2020-2024 period.

Ms Connie actually said total defense equipment spending of 4.2 billion USD is for whole 2022-2024 period, but I think it is for 2022 period only and so far this is the latest spending that President has allowed, since for 2023 and 2024 defense equipment spending will be based on the economic condition.

Based on President law, 50 % spending must be spend on local industry ( new order or MRO) but of course if the foreign defense equipment is backed by foreign loan so the amount to be spend within a year can be scretched into 7-10 years period. For this information I get it already in 2021 news.

New KKIP law (a law that is related to local defense industry enhancement)

Ms Connie also has stated new KKIP law where foreign defense equipment spending will only be allowed for 30 % spending on the budget for defense equipment post ( if it uses foreign loan, the total order will still be quite big due to multi years payment ), this shows Jokowi administration (Jokowi himself) has very nationalistic tendency on defense spending that is pro local defense industry. We will wait the implementation of this law, maybe for next fiscal year (2023-2024) because for 2022 as far as I know the percentage is still 50 %.

New KKIP law in my opinion has Jokowi touch since there is new law saying President can make law for several Ministrial Level Law where Defense is one of them. That new law was just released last year in 2021. This new move by Jokowi I believe is his own initiative to limit Prabowo ambitious plan in defense spending for foreign made defense equipment.

 

[Indos]

This post to debunk some one post in other forum (DT) who like to spread misleading information about KF21/IFX program.

So far South Korea had been reported to have interest to get technology partner for KF21/IFX program, but this was old news in 2019 when speculation about Indonesia plan to leave the program is quite strong. So not just partner who can provide funding and enlarge the captive market, but also the ones who has technology that is needed on the program development.

---------------------------------------------------------------

KAI 'Open' to Additional Foreign Partners on KFX​

17 Oktober 2019

A KAI official, who did not want to be identified, told Jane's at the Seoul International Aerospace & Defense Exhibition (ADEX) on 16 October that the KFX development project is still regarded as "open" in terms of technology partners. "This is still not finalised," he said in reference to KFX development alliances. "We could consider additional partners in the future."

Under a defence offset package linked to South Korea's 2014 procurement of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, the US corporation is already positioned as a technical partner on the KFX. Lockheed Martin is obligated to provide assistance across 21 technology suites including flight controls, avionics, systems integration, materials, and unspecified fighter aircraft weaponry.

However, the US government has also refused to export several technology suites under offsets, forcing South Korea to seek to develop these systems indigenously. These suites are related to the active electronically scanned array (AESA) systems, electro-optical targeting pods, infrared search and track systems, and radio frequency jammers.

Elta Systems, a subsidiary of Israel Aerospace Industries, is providing assistance to South Korean firm Hanwha Systems to develop the KFX's AESA radar.

Jane's understands that companies including Saab, Airbus and Boeing could also position themselves as future partners on the KFX, although the scope of that engagement would be subject to requirements, the structure of the partnership, and funding.

(Jane's)

KAI 'Open' to Additional Foreign Partners on KFX

17 Oktober 2019 The next-generation KFX fighter aircraft is expected to enter series production in the mid-2020s. To support its develo...

defense-studies.blogspot.com

 

[Abid123]

Indonesia should invest in a stronger navy.

 

[Indos]

Based on Ms Connie revealation on that Zoom meeting, latest Ratas ( Limited Cabinet Meeting ) in December 2021, President only allow Rp 60 trillion for defense equipment spending for 2022 fiscal period or about 4.2 billion USD. Minister of Planning and Minister of Finance were also present at that meeting.

That amount is for whole Armed Force defense equipment spending, not limited to Air Force only, even within Air Force there are many programs like Military Satellite, transport plane, radar, AWACS plane, drone and others for 2020-2024 program.

So this new 1.1 billion USD contract is already settle for 6 Rafale, we still have around 3.1 billion USD defense equipment spending for the rest of 2022. According to the whole spending program supported by Planning Minister and Finance Minister, 1.1 billion USD is for MRCA program for 2020-2024 period.

Ms Connie actually said total defense equipment spending of 4.2 billion USD is for whole 2022-2024 period, but I think it is for 2022 period only and so far this is the latest spending that President has allowed, since for 2023 and 2024 defense equipment spending will be based on the economic condition.

Based on President law, 50 % spending must be spend on local industry ( new order or MRO) but of course if the foreign defense equipment is backed by foreign loan so the amount to be spend within a year can be scretched into 7-10 years period. For this information I get it already in 2021 news.

New KKIP law (a law that is related to local defense industry enhancement)

Ms Connie also has stated new KKIP law where foreign defense equipment spending will only be allowed for 30 % spending on the budget for defense equipment post ( if it uses foreign loan, the total order will still be quite big due to multi years payment ), this shows Jokowi administration (Jokowi himself) has very nationalistic tendency on defense spending that is pro local defense industry. We will wait the implementation of this law, maybe for next fiscal year (2023-2024) because for 2022 as far as I know the percentage is still 50 %.

New KKIP law in my opinion has Jokowi touch since there is new law saying President can make law for several Ministrial Level Law where Defense is one of them. That new law was just released last year in 2021. This new move by Jokowi I believe is his own initiative to limit Prabowo ambitious plan in defense spending for foreign made defense equipment.

This is the Zoom meeting, but two women which are Rachel Maryam and Curie Maharini are pro Rafale fighter order, Rachel is Parliament member coming from Gerindra Party (Prabowo party) and Curie Maharini also works in Semar Sentinel which is defense consultan company who is speculated to be the lobby and consultant company for Dassault and other French company, beside working as lecture in Binus University.

Ernest from PSI party and Ms Connie Rahakundini ( defense analyst) are the ones who are critical to the acquisition

Need to be cautious as what they are saying should be divided between opinion and data, for me I am more interested in gathering data like Ms Connie statement about Limited Cabinet Meeting in December 2021, and KKIP new law. etc. Opinion is not always true, we need to be critical as persons in order to not be easily cheated and manipulated.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=652061472573661

 

[J.Brody]

Indonesia should invest in a stronger navy.

We are on it:

2 Arrowheed 140 Frigates
6 FREMM Frigates
2 Modernized Maestralle-class Frigates
6 Mogami Class Frigates (30FFM)
2 Scorpene Subs

 

[Indos]

KF21/IFX program will compete with foreign made fighter Rafale and F 15​

Nice, Kompas has started to compare Rafale order and KFX/IFX program. This will make the program possibly become one of the consideration points during Parliament hearing and also current discussion on public. Other mainstream media should do the same.

Not the stop gap measure

The coming of Rafale planes will likely be in relatively the same time with the coming of KF21/IFX prototype to Indonesia in late 2026/beginning 2027 inshaAllah. The same delivery time also happen if Prabowo want to order F 15.

Based on the previous KF21/IFX program plan, which is currently even 2 months ahead of schedule, the completion of the program is in 2026, and then after that the program will prepare for mass production scale of the plane and also the development of block 2 which is planned to be completed in 2028.

This makes the notion/reason that Rafale and F 15 is just a stop gap before KF21/IFX program reach mass production is false. These programs will actually compete to each other to get the limited budget for MRCA program.

PTDI engineer quoted by Kompas of course doesnt want to criticize Rafale order publicly since Defense Ministry is their main customer and KF21/IFX program is also part of Defense Ministry program since SBY administration, but he implied that KF21/IFX is more into 5 generation while Rafale is 4.5 generation.

KF21/IFX will be developed into 5 and then 6 generation fighter based on the plan inshaAllah. This will make Indonesian Air Force has 4.5/5/and later 6 generation fighters of the same type for long period of time inshaAllah that in the end will create simplicity on infrastructure/training/maintenance/operation/interoperability, easy maintenance and upgrade, etc if we use KF 21/IFX as the main backbone of our future fighter, while in the same time we can use the budget to help our own local defense industry to grow further.

Not to mention that the price will likely set relatively cheaper than both Rafale and F 15, considering the development cost is pretty cheap compared to US and European program.

KF21/IFX fifth prototype

The fifth prototype for Indonesia will be built in Korea because current government hasnt completed the production facility for KF21/IFX program. Actually the amount is not much. The fifth prototype will only be delivered after KF21/IFX plane gets Type certificate. Our KF21/IFX prototype for PTDI will be single seat version inshaAllah.

The possible time of our prototype arrival in Indonesia from Korea based on one of Indonesian KF21/IFX engineers that I know personally is in late 2026 or beginning of 2027. It is because current program actually runs even 2 months ahead from initial plan according to the engineer I spoke to AlhamduliLLAH.

Rafale Offset program

The OFFSET program on Rafale order is basically just engine maintenance (MRO) for PT Nusantara Turbin dan Propulsi (PT NTP) which is a subsidiary company of Indonesian Aerospace (PTDI).

 

[Zarvan]

Currently 4 where previously we had 5 submarines

One sung and the crew sacrificed their live during the duty for their God and country, so I dont know whether this accident will bring ashamed feeling to any one in Defense Ministry or Armed Force who like to get kick back from ordering defense equipment from foreign countries ???

We will face our God soon or later and next live will be very long, whether in Heaven or Hell

View attachment 815156

Indonesia at least needs 12 submarines. In fact way more then 12 but no way Indonesian number of submarines should never come down from 12.