Indonesia Defence Forum

[Whizzack]

Indonesia Putuskan untuk Borong 36 Jet Tempur Rafale dan 8 F-15EX
Muhaimin
Jum'at, 19 Februari 2021 - 07:00 WIB
views: 845

Pesawat jet tempur F-15EX buatan Boeing. Foto/National Interest

JAKARTA - Indonesia akan membeli sejumlah jet tempur F-15EX dari Boeing dan pesawat tempur Rafale dari Prancis antara 2021 dan 2024. Menurut dokumen pertemuan Rapat Pimpinan Angkatan Udara hari Kamis, negara ini akan memborong 36 jet tempur Rafale dan delapan F-15EX.

Dari 44 jet tempur yang akan dibeli, enam di antaranya diharapkan tiba pada tahun 2022.

Indonesia Putuskan untuk Borong 36 Jet Tempur Rafale dan 8 F-15EX

Rencana pengadaan alutsista Indonesia mengalami perubahan beberapa kali karena kondisi global maupun kondisi negara. Indonesia akan membeli sejumlah jet tempur...

international.sindonews.com

=======================================================

So Rafale amount is down from 48 to 36, and we will only have less than a Squadron of F-15 EX, however i still believe this amount is still a great purchase for A, considering that years ago Singapore was contemplating between the two aircraft before choosing F-15. and now we are about to have both! (although kinda hoping F-15 EX will be at least 11 or 12.

not to mention other supporting aircraft as well (C-130J, MRTT) has been confirmed so be it.

So from 48 Rafale it is now 36 Rafale + 8 F-15EX = 44 new jets... That's great! slightly down in numbers but we get heavy fighters in exchange... hopefully we can add more F-15s later till at least a full Sqn (@16 units)... That being said, I wonder how AU plans to allocate the 36 Rafales..? Will it form 3 Sqn (@12 units) or 2 Sqn (@18 units)...?

You forgot to mention PLN (pembiayaan luar negeri) or foreign loan.

In the case of French products acquisition alone, they've offered $11 billion soft loan.

South Korea may also offer soft loan for naval assets.

If true then those plan are even more realistic, I thought the USB 1,6B allocation already include foreign loan... Though I thought that the 1,6B is only for this year, and we will get more in the following years...

 

[dr.knowhow]

You forgot to mention PLN (pembiayaan luar negeri) or foreign loan.

In the case of French products acquisition alone, they've offered $11 billion soft loan.

South Korea may also offer soft loan for naval assets.

The Nagapasa class was on soft loan, more than 90% (correction) 100% of the total procurement cost paid by Import and Export Bank of Korea

 

[dr.knowhow]

So from 48 Rafale it is now 36 Rafale + 8 F-15EX = 44 new jets... That's great! slightly down in numbers but we get heavy fighters in exchange... hopefully we can add more F-15s later till at least a full Sqn (@16 units)... That being said, I wonder how AU plans to allocate the 36 Rafales..? Will it form 3 Sqn (@12 units) or 2 Sqn (@18 units)...?


If true then those plan are even more realistic, I thought the USB 1,6B allocation already include foreign loan... Though I thought that the 1,6B is only for this year, and we will get more in the following years...

Yeah, it makes way more sense. Greek acquisition of 18 Rafales, of which 12 used, was € 2.4 billion or almost $ 3 billion so considering this 36 Rafales would've been hard without any loans.

I think 2 squadrons of 18 jets is closer to the usual case than 3 squadrons of 12.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Tbh, if the main contract between Indonesia and Korea for the 2nd batch of Nagapasa class ain't signed, it's potentially a good idea to buy Scorpenes instead as those have AIP which Nagapasa doesn't. The question is how much of the procurement cost will be covered with loan and if it's going to built in Indonesia. In case of Nagapasa, it was a unique kind of deal which only got realised because Nagapasa class was first submarine ever to be exported by Korea. Usually a soft loan cannot exceed 85% of the total procurement cost.

If it's not the case that the procurement cost is fully covered or built in Indonesia like Nagapasa class, then it's up to Indonesia to decide what's more important. What I think would be most wise to do is to purchase 3 and put 3 as an option, just like what they originally planned to do with Nagapasa class batch 2, so that they could have more leverage to have better conditions, i.e. building some of those ships domestically for example.

The downside might be that Indonesia could lose a supplier who's willing to finance the procurement with more soft loans than its competitors.

 

[Indos]

I hope all of our Hawk can use this InfoGlobal made avionics during the refurbished and upgrade program. They have used InfoGlobal avionics before. It will be great if it can also be used for possible SU 27/30 refurbished/upgrade program.

Picture information

Indonesian defense company, PT Info Global, proposes its avionics product for Indonesian KFX fighter version (IFX) during Indo Defense Event in 2016. Info Global avionics has been used for several Indonesian planes like Hawk 100/200, Boeing 737-200, Hercules C-130, KT-1B, and NC 212 Maritime Patrol Aircraft (MPA).

infoglobal.co.id

Infoglobal has grown to a competent company in electronic and information technology. The main focuses of the products are aviation electronic device called Avionics. Infoglobal also develops some applications software, including training and implementation services.

m.infoglobal.co.id

 

[foodsoldier]

Tbh, if the main contract between Indonesia and Korea for the 2nd batch of Nagapasa class ain't signed, it's potentially a good idea to buy Scorpenes instead as those have AIP which Nagapasa doesn't. The question is how much of the procurement cost will be covered with loan and if it's going to built in Indonesia. In case of Nagapasa, it was a unique kind of deal which only got realised because Nagapasa class was first submarine ever to be exported by Korea. Usually a soft loan cannot exceed 85% of the total procurement cost.

If it's not the case that the procurement cost is fully covered or built in Indonesia like Nagapasa class, then it's up to Indonesia to decide what's more important. What I think would be most wise to do is to purchase 3 and put 3 as an option, just like what they originally planned to do with Nagapasa class batch 2, so that they could have more leverage to have better conditions, i.e. building some of those ships domestically for example.

The downside might be that Indonesia could lose a supplier who's willing to finance the procurement with more soft loans than its competitors.

Looking into the Rapim's cheat sheet, I suspect we opt to aim for a bigger gun from South Korea (i.e. KSS instead of CBG). This deal will save both countries faces (considering the innate problem on CBG). For Indonesia, it will ensure the initial investment on CBG production facilities won't go to waste.

I also assume that this potential KSS deal is part of our MoD strategy to negotiate on KFX/IFX program continuation.

 

[Gundala]

That being said, I wonder how AU plans to allocate the 36 Rafales..? Will it form 3 Sqn (@12 units) or 2 Sqn (@18 units)...?

I think they are going to put it in 2 sqn at first. Their original plan was to put new fighter/sqn in Kupang. Biak was to get newly build sqn which might get T50i (if the radar already been installed to all fighters) or F-16 (not sure if its going to be the am/bm or block 25id).

New F-16 Viper was originated to be placed in Kupang, most likely Rafale is going to be stationed there. What I really want to know is where they going to place the second sqn of Rafale...

 

[radialv]

Probably 2nd rafale sqdr will be stationed in pontianak or natuna, imho

I think they are going to put it in 2 sqn at first. Their original plan was to put new fighter/sqn in Kupang. Biak was to get newly build sqn which might get T50i (if the radar already been installed to all fighters) or F-16 (not sure if its going to be the am/bm or block 25id).

New F-16 Viper was originated to be placed in Kupang, most likely Rafale is going to be stationed there. What I really want to know is where they going to place the second sqn of Rafale...

 

[Whizzack]

I think it's a good thing now that we are no longer planning on getting new build F-16s, even in its latest blk.72 Viper version, and instead prefer to invest in newer gen platforms like the Rafale... Even the USAF is considering a brand new platform for its gen 4.5 fighter...

The U.S. Air Force’s F-16 Replacement Plan Is Taking Shape

In comments made to the Defense Writers Group, Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Charles Q. Brown explained that the Air Force would like a new, from-scratch fighter to replace the F-16 with wha

www.realcleardefense.com

It seems the F-16 as a platform has finally reached its technological end and further tweaks will no longer give it much performance boost or advantage against potential future adversaries..

Of course this doesn't mean the Viper will become obsolete overnight, it will still be a potent fighter for some years to come, and further upgrades done by 3rd party (non-OEM) vendors could extend its effectiveness even longer..

So I support us upgrading our existing F-16 fleet for as long as its feasible (economically and technologically), however it really is best to move on and no longer invest in getting new build F-16s going forward... So in this case I feel we really are moving in the right direction..

 

[Whizzack]

KFX / IFX still ongoing!

DAPA: Indonesia's Plan to Purchase F-15EX 'Separate' from Joint Fighter Jet Development Program
Write: 2021-02-21 13:23:11/Update: 2021-02-21 13:50:27
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South Korea's arms procurement agency said on Saturday that Indonesia's reported plan to purchase F-15EX jets from the United States defense giant, Boeing, and Rafale fighters from France is "separate" from a joint fighter jet development program between the two countries.

The Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA) issued the position in a statement after the Indonesian media reported on Friday that Indonesia plans to purchase the fighters between 2021 and 2024.

The report came amid rising concerns over Indonesia's delayed payments for its share of the cost of the KF-X joint fighter project between South Korea and Indonesia.

DAPA said it assesses that the reported purchase plan is a matter separate from the KF-X joint development scheme, adding it is a move that Indonesia has already been seeking in order to boost Indonesia's Air Force power.

DAPA stressed that Indonesia has expressed its intention to continue to participate in the KF-X project.

It also said that the two countries have been conducting negotiations in a mutually beneficial way through multiple working-level negotiations, adding when the negotiations are complete, the DAPA will disclose the results to the nation.

DAPA: Indonesia's Plan to Purchase F-15EX 'Separate' from Joint Fighter Jet Development Program

South Korea's arms procurement agency said on Saturday that Indonesia's reported plan to purchase F-15EX jets from the United States defense giant, Boeing, and ...

world.kbs.co.kr

 

[Whizzack]

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[Indos]

I would say that huge import of fighters while we are still undergoing KFX/IFX program will be brought in next election campaign. This will be very damaging to Prabowo as we know on debate both the opponent and commentators will come from knowleadgeable people, he can be accused as preferring importing fighters over domestic industry advancement.

Not to mention that France submarine acquisition plan that jeopardizes long plan to build submarine in the country where the budget for submarine building facility has already been approved and will be completed in 2021.

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Speculation mounts over Indonesia pulling out of KF-X fighter project​

Workers of Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) assemble the first prototype of the nation's indigenous fighter jet program KF-X at a plant in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, Jan. 22. / Korea Times file

By Kang Seung-woo

Speculation is again mounting over Indonesia pulling out of participation in Korea's KF-X fighter project, with the Southeast Asian country reportedly seeking to buy aircraft from the United States and France despite its snowballing arrears from the joint development program.

Some say Indonesia is leveraging the envisioned fighter acquisition to renegotiate the terms of a contract it signed with Korea, while others claim the Southeast Asian country is pulling out of the deal altogether.

The KF-X project aims to produce 120 advanced multi-role fighter jets to replace the Korean Air Force's aging fleet of F-4s and F-5s by 2032. Seoul and Jakarta signed a deal in 2010 to cooperate on the KF-X project, under which Indonesia would fund 20 percent of the total development cost of 8.8 trillion won ($7.9 billion), or about 1.7 trillion won, in exchange for 50 planes that would be manufactured there for the Indonesian Air Force, and technology transfers.

However, Indonesia has paid only 227.2 billion out of the 831.6 billion won it promised as of this month, citing financial problems.

While Indonesia has been falling behind on its payments, local media there reported recently that the country's Air Force was planning to acquire multiple warplanes, including Boeing's F-15EX and Dassault Rafale fighters, as part of the modernization of its aircraft fleet by 2024. Last year, the country was reportedly close to an agreement to purchase 48 Rafale jets.

"Its payment delay and plan to buy new aircraft are regarded as a gambit to renegotiate the terms of payment, or lower its financial commitment," a government official said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Officials from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), Korea's arms procurement agency, visited Jakarta for renegotiations last September; but the talks ended without a deal.

However, Shin Jong-woo, a senior researcher at the Korea Defense and Security Forum, said the overdue payments were a sign Indonesia was quitting the program, adding that its Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto has shifted his focus to procuring weapons that can be operational immediately. Subianto took office in October 2019.

"We cannot wait blindly until Indonesia pays the agreed-upon sum for the pivotal project. Since the appointment of a new defense minister in 2019, the two countries have made little progress on the KF-X project," Shin said.

"Given that its defense budget is limited, it seems almost impossible to continue working with Indonesia on the KF-X and we need to seek ways to independently proceed with the project."

Shin also said Indonesia's calls to renegotiate the terms "make little sense."

"Indonesia joined the KF-X program on favorable terms. After paying over 1 trillion won, it can produce aircraft on its home soil and receive and benefit from technology transfers," he added.

In response to the media reports, DAPA said Saturday, Indonesia's procurement plan was separate from the KF-X project, adding that the two sides have held multiple working-level negotiations in a mutually beneficial manner.

Amid growing uncertainty over the KF-X, there are growing calls for Korea to end the program partnership with Indonesia.

"Both countries are not talking about parting ways out of concerns over causing diplomatic problems. If DAPA brings up the issue first, Korea will fall into Indonesia's break-up strategy," Shin said.

"That's why DAPA keeps saying negotiations are still under way although it looks like an almost done deal internally."
Kang Seung-woo ksw@koreatimes.co.kr

Speculation mounts over Indonesia pulling out of KF-X fighter project

Speculation is again mounting over Indonesia pulling out of participation in Korea's KF-X fighter project, with the Southeast Asian country reportedly seeking to buy aircraft from the United States and France despite its snowballing arrears from the joint development program. Some say Indonesia...

m.koreatimes.co.kr

 

[dr.knowhow]

I would say that huge import of fighters while we are still undergoing KFX/IFX program will be brought in next election campaign. This will be very damaging to Prabowo as we know on debate both the opponent and commentators will come from knowleadgeable people, he can be accused as preferring importing fighters over domestic industry advancement.

Not to mention that France submarine acquisition plan that jeopardizes long plan to build submarine in the country where the budget for submarine building facility has already been approved and will be completed in 2021.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​

View attachment 718646

Speculation mounts over Indonesia pulling out of KF-X fighter project​

Workers of Korea Aerospace Industries (KAI) assemble the first prototype of the nation's indigenous fighter jet program KF-X at a plant in Sacheon, South Gyeongsang Province, Jan. 22. / Korea Times file

By Kang Seung-woo

Speculation is again mounting over Indonesia pulling out of participation in Korea's KF-X fighter project, with the Southeast Asian country reportedly seeking to buy aircraft from the United States and France despite its snowballing arrears from the joint development program.

Some say Indonesia is leveraging the envisioned fighter acquisition to renegotiate the terms of a contract it signed with Korea, while others claim the Southeast Asian country is pulling out of the deal altogether.

The KF-X project aims to produce 120 advanced multi-role fighter jets to replace the Korean Air Force's aging fleet of F-4s and F-5s by 2032. Seoul and Jakarta signed a deal in 2010 to cooperate on the KF-X project, under which Indonesia would fund 20 percent of the total development cost of 8.8 trillion won ($7.9 billion), or about 1.7 trillion won, in exchange for 50 planes that would be manufactured there for the Indonesian Air Force, and technology transfers.

However, Indonesia has paid only 227.2 billion out of the 831.6 billion won it promised as of this month, citing financial problems.

While Indonesia has been falling behind on its payments, local media there reported recently that the country's Air Force was planning to acquire multiple warplanes, including Boeing's F-15EX and Dassault Rafale fighters, as part of the modernization of its aircraft fleet by 2024. Last year, the country was reportedly close to an agreement to purchase 48 Rafale jets.

"Its payment delay and plan to buy new aircraft are regarded as a gambit to renegotiate the terms of payment, or lower its financial commitment," a government official said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

Officials from the Defense Acquisition Program Administration (DAPA), Korea's arms procurement agency, visited Jakarta for renegotiations last September; but the talks ended without a deal.

However, Shin Jong-woo, a senior researcher at the Korea Defense and Security Forum, said the overdue payments were a sign Indonesia was quitting the program, adding that its Defense Minister Prabowo Subianto has shifted his focus to procuring weapons that can be operational immediately. Subianto took office in October 2019.

"We cannot wait blindly until Indonesia pays the agreed-upon sum for the pivotal project. Since the appointment of a new defense minister in 2019, the two countries have made little progress on the KF-X project," Shin said.

"Given that its defense budget is limited, it seems almost impossible to continue working with Indonesia on the KF-X and we need to seek ways to independently proceed with the project."

Shin also said Indonesia's calls to renegotiate the terms "make little sense."

"Indonesia joined the KF-X program on favorable terms. After paying over 1 trillion won, it can produce aircraft on its home soil and receive and benefit from technology transfers," he added.

In response to the media reports, DAPA said Saturday, Indonesia's procurement plan was separate from the KF-X project, adding that the two sides have held multiple working-level negotiations in a mutually beneficial manner.

Amid growing uncertainty over the KF-X, there are growing calls for Korea to end the program partnership with Indonesia.

"Both countries are not talking about parting ways out of concerns over causing diplomatic problems. If DAPA brings up the issue first, Korea will fall into Indonesia's break-up strategy," Shin said.

"That's why DAPA keeps saying negotiations are still under way although it looks like an almost done deal internally."
Kang Seung-woo ksw@koreatimes.co.kr

Speculation mounts over Indonesia pulling out of KF-X fighter project

Speculation is again mounting over Indonesia pulling out of participation in Korea's KF-X fighter project, with the Southeast Asian country reportedly seeking to buy aircraft from the United States and France despite its snowballing arrears from the joint development program. Some say Indonesia...

m.koreatimes.co.kr

This will continue to be that case. That the media outlets suggest that Indonesia will quite soon enough and DAPA denies. What's for sure is that things will be clear once this aircraft goes into production.

What I hope for is that Indonesia makes a swift decision and commits into it, regardless of continuing the program or not because another thing that I could be sure of is that it wouldn't be Korea but Indonesia who would announce their departure from the program. So, the faster Indonesia decides, the more resources and time saved both parties.

I see that some Indonesians get to believe that by delaying and buying other aircrafts they are gaining more bargaining power to leverage the renegotiation in their favor but in reality, that's not exactly the case. The more time they consume, the more assured the Korean side gets that Indonesia likely quits. That's not a threat, which is based on probability, but a fixed outcome. What follows is a plan B and a last effort to get Indonesia back in program. The problem is, such last ditch effort has a certain limit because this program for Korea is just too significant to scrap even when Indonesia leaves. So with Indonesia or not, the program continues. Even without the Indonesian payment and engineers the program is ahead of the projected schedule by a few weeks. It's not much, but it speaks of the current state of the program, which is already leaning towards the aforementioned "plan b".


Even then, don't get me wrong because I know that there have been countless examples in the past where partner nation(s) in a joint development program has quit it mid-way :

Series of NBMR development programs got cancelled or shrank because individual NATO nations opted for their own design and quit the program.

NFR-90 program was meant to be a joint effort among all significant NATO nations to develop a common frigate design to be used for all their navies. It got split up to several different programs due to disagreements here and there.

Then the Horizon CNFG and TFC programs were born. UK left Horizon CNFG and Spain left TFC
program midcourse and they have each opted for Type 45 and Aegis system instead. TFC later on became APAR and Horizon EMPAR.

MEADS program was a joint NATO effort to develop a next generation SAM system but Germany is the sole remainer as of today.

PTS-2000 program was a joint program between Italy and Germany which stalled once Italy lost interest and opted for a design based on YAK-130 instead (which became M-346). Later on it was renamed AT-2000 and UAE joined the program but eventually left after a few years, which finally killed the program.

and the list goes on and on. Case is, if Indonesia quits KF-X/IF-X program, it wouldn't be the first nor the last case such thing occurs. Even after all these shenanigans the NATO nations continued to cooperate and join forces in various defense and R&D programs. If the terms are not favorable enough from the Indonesian perspective, quitting might be the right choice for them just like all above examples.

On the other hand, I could assure that Indonesia would definitely gain highly valuable experience in designing an aircraft. Although there were major input by LM, engineers from Korean companies and institutes learnt a lot of critical know-how designing an aircraft during the KTX-2 program (later T-50). In the book of one of the engineers who participated in the program , he wrote that the LM engineers have completely re-shaped their development strategy, policy, structure and even habits from the ground up for any future R&D programs during the KTX-2 program. He also wrote that the experience they've gained developing a jet powered supersonic aircraft was incomparable to what they've learnt by designing a turboprop subsonic one. It's the same case for Japan when they've developed the F-2 via FSX program.

Such experience and knowhow are not what you can gain by transfer of technology as an offset of buying foreign aircraft. It's also not assured that you would get what you were promised during the procurement as well. This is especially the case if you're purchasing such aircrafts on a soft loan.

If that's worth enough for Indonesia though, is not what I get to decide.

 

[Whizzack]

This will continue to be that case. That the media outlets suggest that Indonesia will quite soon enough and DAPA denies. What's for sure is that things will be clear once this aircraft goes into production.

What I hope for is that Indonesia makes a swift decision and commits into it, regardless of continuing the program or not because another thing that I could be sure of is that it wouldn't be Korea but Indonesia who would announce their departure from the program. So, the faster Indonesia decides, the more resources and time saved both parties.

I see that some Indonesians get to believe that by delaying and buying other aircrafts they are gaining more bargaining power to leverage the renegotiation in their favor but in reality, that's not exactly the case. The more time they consume, the more assured the Korean side gets that Indonesia likely quits. That's not a threat, which is based on probability, but a fixed outcome. What follows is a plan B and a last effort to get Indonesia back in program. The problem is, such last ditch effort has a certain limit because this program for Korea is just too significant to scrap even when Indonesia leaves. So with Indonesia or not, the program continues. Even without the Indonesian payment and engineers the program is ahead of the projected schedule by a few weeks. It's not much, but it speaks of the current state of the program, which is already leaning towards the aforementioned "plan b".


Even then, don't get me wrong because I know that there have been countless examples in the past where partner nation(s) in a joint development program has quit it mid-way :

Series of NBMR development programs got cancelled or shrank because individual NATO nations opted for their own design and quit the program.

NFR-90 program was meant to be a joint effort among all significant NATO nations to develop a common frigate design to be used for all their navies. It got split up to several different programs due to disagreements here and there.

Then the Horizon CNFG and TFC programs were born. UK left Horizon CNFG and Spain left TFC
program midcourse and they have each opted for Type 45 and Aegis system instead. TFC later on became APAR and Horizon EMPAR.

MEADS program was a joint NATO effort to develop a next generation SAM system but Germany is the sole remainer as of today.

PTS-2000 program was a joint program between Italy and Germany which stalled once Italy lost interest and opted for a design based on YAK-130 instead (which became M-346). Later on it was renamed AT-2000 and UAE joined the program but eventually left after a few years, which finally killed the program.

and the list goes on and on. Case is, if Indonesia quits KF-X/IF-X program, it wouldn't be the first nor the last case such thing occurs. Even after all these shenanigans the NATO nations continued to cooperate and join forces in various defense and R&D programs. If the terms are not favorable enough from the Indonesian perspective, quitting might be the right choice for them just like all above examples.

On the other hand, I could assure that Indonesia would definitely gain highly valuable experience in designing an aircraft. Although there were major input by LM, engineers from Korean companies and institutes learnt a lot of critical know-how designing an aircraft during the KTX-2 program (later T-50). In the book of one of the engineers who participated in the program , he wrote that the LM engineers have completely re-shaped their development strategy, policy, structure and even habits from the ground up for any future R&D programs during the KTX-2 program. He also wrote that the experience they've gained developing a jet powered supersonic aircraft was incomparable to what they've learnt by designing a turboprop subsonic one. It's the same case for Japan when they've developed the F-2 via FSX program.

Such experience and knowhow are not what you can gain by transfer of technology as an offset of buying foreign aircraft. It's also not assured that you would get what you were promised during the procurement as well. This is especially the case if you're purchasing such aircrafts on a soft loan.

If that's worth enough for Indonesia though, is not what I get to decide.

I feel your comment is spot on! I thought the same too... kinda make me feel down.. Really hope we will stay in this project...

The biggest benefit we are getting out of this deal would be to gain the experience / knowledge / know-how to design a brand new modern fighter from scratch, and how to manage such a project... This is something we won't be getting just by doing Tot / maintenance / parts manufacture or even license manufacture of existing designs... this project is a valuable learning experience for our aviation designers and engineers.. Unfortunately some of us just doesn't seem to see that bigger picture, and feels satisfied enough getting some tot/offset work manufacturing a few parts... something we've actually been doing for a long time now... we really need to step up the ladder and do more...

Well.. We actually did it / are doing it with our N250 and N219 commuter planes project, we could've just gotten ourselves a license production from ATR or de Havilland for similar types of plane, but we chose the hard way and designed it on our own... It shows that we do have the skills to run such a project... however since we have zero experience with fighter jets, teaming with Korea in such a project is the best way to gain it... I mean look at the effort India is trying to build their own fighter totally on their own, it's taken so long and still the Tejas is not properly operational yet...

It's not everyday we get a chance to collaborate on a brand new fighter with a reasonable chance of success...

 

[Indos]

I feel your comment is spot on! I thought the same too... kinda make me feel down.. Really hope we will stay in this project...

The biggest benefit we are getting out of this deal would be to gain the experience / knowledge / know-how to design a brand new modern fighter from scratch, and how to manage such a project... This is something we won't be getting just by doing Tot / maintenance / parts manufacture or even license manufacture of existing designs... this project is a valuable learning experience for our aviation designers and engineers.. Unfortunately some of us just doesn't seem to see that bigger picture, and feels satisfied enough getting some tot/offset work manufacturing a few parts... something we've actually been doing for a long time now... we really need to step up the ladder and do more...

Well.. We actually did it / are doing it with our N250 and N219 commuter planes project, we could've just gotten ourselves a license production from ATR or de Havilland for similar types of plane, but we chose the hard way and designed it on our own... It shows that we do have the skills to run such a project... however since we have zero experience with fighter jets, teaming with Korea in such a project is the best way to gain it... I mean look at the effort India is trying to build their own fighter totally on their own, it's taken so long and still the Tejas is not properly operational yet...

It's not everyday we get a chance to collaborate on a brand new fighter with a reasonable chance of success...

Well, our engineers have already been in Korea since the start of designing process which is in 2011 where we sent 52 engineers/experts. As in 2019 July, Dapa Korea said there are 114 Indonesian engineers working in KAI and contributing on the design. September 2019 was CDR meeting which suggest design process has already been almost completed.

Our engineers (read: designers) left in March 2020 where prototype manufacturing has been commenced. So actually we have already had valuable design experience for STEALTH fighter design. The next thing is to send production engineers that hasnt been sent yet until now.

I would say we have already had that valuable design experience where we design the planes with South Korean and also American later, but It is morally not right if we left the program after such intense cooperation and experience exist.

This program should be a way to make two nations get close together and become strategic partners, but with this drama and unreasonable demand from Indonesian side it look like we stab our best friend in the back after we are successfully hunting a deer together and eat the meat.


Source:

Indonesia Defense Ministry official website

Badan Pendidikan dan Pelatihan Kemhan RI

www.kemhan.go.id

Korean media quoting Dapa official

Indonesia delays payment for S. Korea's fighter development project | Yonhap News Agency

SEOUL, Oct. 7 (Yonhap) -- Indonesia is in arrears on its payment obligations for a joint p...

en.yna.co.kr