Indonesia-China Navy To Hold Joint Military Exercise In South China Sea !

[Huaren]

Don't hold your breath. Indonesia is no ones ally not to Australia, India, Japan or the US, but we are willing to be a friendly regional partner. No more than that unfortunately.

Thats the best way for any independent nation under ideal situation, however in time of need closer cooperation might be necessary, if things stay at the current level strategic and political position of indonesia would be more than sufficient, but as for the pivot to Asia Australia is likely the most important wing in the southeastern region, expanding influece effectivelly could be expected including closer millitary coordination which is currently running, if I remember right indonesian leadership did once propose that China take part in such coordination with US and australia to prevent tension and mistrust, unfortunately that was not meant to be ofc. If there is a tipping point which is quite likely in the near future like most nations in the region Indonesia might have to choose a side (ofc not acting would a choice in itself, but likely a bad one), admittedly right now most in China would expect Indonesia to side with US team, but I hope for the different choice (or at least stay neutral) when the time comes.

I believe there is indeed a faint sense of rising nervousness in China as the representatives of current world order might not tolerate the growth of China much longer, as all the predecessors before they are too greedy to cede power to any newcomers, and if China successfully restructure our economy there wouldnt be a second chance to stop us without paying even higher price than now. (which as limited conflicts under careful calculation and supports of various regional allies might still be bearable for the current world leader) As China is feeling the tightening there is no choice but to make preparation as best as possible, eventhough unlike most past emerging powers in China there is no need for external conquest, reaffirmination of justified disputes in strategic location would be critical for the potential conflicts. That is why China isnt sitting down with disputes which could normally be accepted by china to dragging on for generations more, instead with active reinforcement by non violent means. (Also worth mention is how China have already solved all disputes with Russia and central Asians which are less strategically important that other disputes)

In the end China is only preparing for the worst, if nothing happens we win by economic growth and development and if something happens we would be ready to protect our interest by any means possible. On the sidenote the most ideal approach would ofc be solving all the distrust of our neighbours and becoming friends/allies, however its is impossible to solve this knot is the short term (not for us or the most others in the region, thanks to the messed up history) And our foes might not wait for much longer. For now China must be prepared for the worst to protect ourselves against everybody(established order) like some new upstart (in our case its to gain our past position once again).

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Thats the best way for any independent nation under ideal situation, however in time of need closer cooperation might be necessary, if things stay at the current level strategic and political position of indonesia would be more than sufficient, but as for the pivot to Asia Australia is likely the most important wing in the southeastern region, expanding influece effectivelly could be expected including closer millitary coordination which is currently running, if I remember right indonesian leadership did once propose that China take part in such coordination with US and australia to prevent tension and mistrust, unfortunately that was not meant to be ofc. If there is a tipping point which is quite likely in the near future like most nations in the region Indonesia might have to choose a side (ofc not acting would a choice in itself, but likely a bad one), admittedly right now most in China would expect Indonesia to side with US team, but I hope for the different choice (or at least stay neutral) when the time comes.

I believe there is indeed a faint sense of rising nervousness in China as the representatives of current world order might not tolerate the growth of China much longer, as all the predecessors before they are too greedy to cede power to any newcomers, and if China successfully restructure our economy there wouldnt be a second chance to stop us without paying even higher price than now. (which as limited conflicts under careful calculation and supports of various regional allies might still be bearable for the current world leader) As China is feeling the tightening there is no choice but to make preparation as best as possible, eventhough unlike most past emerging powers in China there is no need for external conquest, reaffirmination of justified disputes in strategic location would be critical for the potential conflicts. That is why China isnt sitting down with disputes which could normally be accepted by china to dragging on for generations more, instead with active reinforcement by non violent means. (Also worth mention is how China have aready solved all disputes with Russia and central Asians which are less strategically important that other disputes)

In the end China is only prepare for the worst, if nothing happens we win by economic growth and development and if something happens we would be ready for it to protect our interest by any means possible. On the sidenote the most ideal approch would ofc be solving all the distrust of our neighbours and becoming friends/allies, however its is impossible to solve this knot is the short term (not for us or the most others in the region, thanks to the messed up history) And our foes might not wait for much longer. For now China must be prepared for the worst to protect ourselves against everybody(established order) like some new upstart to gain our position in the past once again.

Incredible assertion of the situation, but I will have to disagree on the part we have to choose. Indonesia will be neutral as long as there's no immediate threat to its interest or security, but of course if the situation escalate that will force us to choose a side then we will no doubt join against those that threaten us. Red team or Blue team it doesn't matter which we will join.

That is why we should just let the dispute happens on the table. If your country don't want to drag it into international court we can make another arrangement that can satisfy all side.

 

[Huaren]

Incredible assertion of the situation, but I will have to disagree on the part we have to choose. Indonesia will be neutral as long as there's no immediate threat to its interest or security, but of course if the situation escalate that will force us to choose a side then we will no doubt join against those that threaten us. Red team or Blue team it doesn't matter which we will join.

That is why we should just let the dispute happens on the table. If your country don't want to drag it into international court we can make another arrangement that can satisfy all side.

Neutral is already more than enough, and its less than unlikely for us to ever come near Indonesia in any future conflicts(without your invitation), as the strategic zones of defence is becoming more clear with passing days, from the position of China this would be a conflict(if there is one) from defensive position. Table will undoubtly solve this particular dispute in time, but I am afraid in this case it goes way beyond this dispute, Ofc in a decade or so without open conflict we could all breath up, lets hope for the best.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

I am still not convinced. I suggest you lick harder.

Someone here seems to have a high opinion of themselves . Relax kid I done with convincing you. It is as you just said that "don't bother to teach someone that don't want to be teach." Or something along that line. You see? I learn something for you to bad you can't even remember couple of weeks worth of knowledge.

Adios...

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

Neutral is already more enough, and its less than unlikely for us to ever come near Indonesia in any future conflicts, as the strategic zones of defence is becoming more clear with passing days, from the position of China this would be a conflict(if there is one) from defensive position. Table will undoubtly solve this particular dispute in time, but I am afraid in this case it goes way beyond this dispute, Ofc in a decade or so without open conflict we could all breath up, lets hope for the best.

The recent intrusion by Chinese boats proves otherwise, but let's hope it doesn't get any more serious than that. As long as its discussed over the table I can agree with it. ASEAN-China's ties worth around 800 Billion dollars & I hate it for that to go just for some rocks that worth less.

Value chain shift to boost China-ASEAN trade - Headlines, features, photo and videos from ecns.cn|china|news|chinanews|ecns|cns

 

[Huaren]

The recent intrusion by Chinese boats proves otherwise, but let's hope it doesn't get any more serious than that. As long as its discussed over the table I can agree with it. ASEAN-China's ties worth around 800 Billion dollars & I hate it for that to go just for some rocks that worth less.

Also sometimes there is just too must fussy, is the so called "intrusion" any more serious than this?
Australia vows no more intrusions into Indonesian waters
But I have also read about the opinions of indonesian sailors and fishermen and how they distrust chinese vessels of any kinds, they said nothing could be done to the chinese (like to viets or pinoys) lol.

Seriously I wonder if some people from southeast Asia realize how china become "aggressive" ever since american pivot to asia, when before China was willing to drag on with negotiations and keep one eye closed when different parties closing in the region. Some fishermen have suffered(like mentioned pinoy viets and even indonisian have made contribution to others on that part) but thats nothing in compare with tense situation right now. Still there are so many who see the whole pivot as their salvation.

 

[Viet]

Someone here seems to have a high opinion of themselves . Relax kid I done with convincing you. It is as you just said that "don't bother to teach someone that don't want to be teach." Or something along that line. You see? I learn something for you to bad you can't even remember couple of weeks worth of knowledge.

Adios...

I have no problem with you and other indonesian members in general, just feel disgusted as you and your comrades, supported by chinese cheerleaders, claim to be the leader, aka the boss of vietnam. I´ll let you know if I need your advice, otherwise shut up.

if you start to lower and insult vietnam, don´t surprise if we retaliate with our words against your country.

 

[Aepsilons]

Incredible assertion of the situation, but I will have to disagree on the part we have to choose. Indonesia will be neutral as long as there's no immediate threat to its interest or security, but of course if the situation escalate that will force us to choose a side then we will no doubt join against those that threaten us. Red team or Blue team it doesn't matter which we will join.

That is why we should just let the dispute happens on the table. If your country don't want to drag it into international court we can make another arrangement that can satisfy all side.

Ergo, taking the middle path. Wise.

 

[Huaren]

I have no problem with you and other indonesian members in general, just feel disgusted as you and your comrades, supported by chinese cheerleaders, claim to be the leader, aka the boss of vietnam. I´ll let you know if I need your advice, otherwise shut up.

if you start to lower and insult vietnam, don´t surprise if we retaliate with our words against your country.

Wow great way to make allies, if you didnt realize yet Indonesians are more interested in balance and peace than boss anyone around, they know this potential conflict between China and West is bad for the region in general, and China sure has no need for any conflict with anyone to reach prosperity (as the last few decades have already proved). Only your "ideal" ally from the faraway continent want to make sure that their position and influence does not diminish, which is a fools errand seeing the results of their "good intentions" and actions in africa, middle east and central asia, but that never stopped them from trying before (with the native people from those regions paying the heavy price). And also even beside all "leader this and that" talk the Indonesians will treat viets as nothing else but real equals, unlike your old frenemies (white powers) or worst enemy (us), well dont you want to unite all of southeast asia against us evil chinese?? You are doing it the wrong way, instead you should give up on mekong conquests, get friendly with your brother nations in ASEAN, and deny interferance of western powers in the region, then there should be no problem to convince most if not all of southeast Asia to side with you (all as equals), if that is the case China would at least be willing to return to status quo in islands regions like before.

Ofc I still stand by my assessment that Indonesia got the most potential in southeast asia to become major power, but that doesnt mean they would be pushing others around like you would to your mekong neighbours, or like we did to you (which was the only way to make you keep hands off others)

 

[NarThoD]

Alright. We know where's this discussion going to if we're keep like this. Unhealthy

Soon we're going to need ally although being neutral is the good choice but its the most risky option.

Let's stick to the subject matter, Ladies and Gentlemen.

Maybe you can describe some benefit from allying japan-us or china?

 

[Aepsilons]

Alright. We know where's this discussion going to if we're keep like this. Unhealthy

Soon we're going to need ally although being neutral is the good choice but its the most risky option.

Maybe you can describe some benefit from allying japan-us or china?

There are gargantuan benefits in being a strategically active partner of the US-Japan Global Alliance:

1) Integration to the US-Japan Economy (combined GDP of $22 Trillion)
2) Significant boost in Japan - US FDI into Indonesia
3) Cohesive cooperation and interoperability with the United States Navy, Japan Maritime Self Defense Force, cooperation in anti-terrorist activities, dependable military protection in case of rising exigency
4) The United States would provide a Nuclear umbrella for Indonesia
5) Military Arms Trade boost, Military Technology transfers, Military Technology cooperation
6) Significant heightening of people to people cooperation and interaction through science research initiatives, cultural interaction etc
7) A strategic alliance between Indonesia-Japan-United States would provide balance and stability from Northeast Asia, down to Southeast Asia and Pacific.
8) The overall protection of strategic sea lanes that binds all three powers together

@SvenSvensonov , what else do you think ?

 

[Aepsilons]

Maybe you can describe some benefit from allying japan-us or china?

There are no conflict of interests, i must add. Japan has no territorial qualms with Indonesia. Neither does the United States. Whereas China claims the Indonesian Natuna Islands and large part of Indonesian waters in SCS. An alliance with China would be contrary to national interests given the territorial issue.

In the end, its Indonesian Government's decision to select which it will align with. But as it stands, there is already a significant Japanese footprint in Indonesia. Indonesia is the #2 largest recipient of Japanese FDI, and will continue to increase as years progress.

 

[SvenSvensonov]

There are gargantuan benefits in being a strategically active partner of the US-Japan Global Alliance:

1) Integration to the US-Japan Economy (combined GDP of $22 Trillion)
2) Significant boost in Japan - US FDI into Indonesia
3) Cohesive cooperation and interoperability with the United States Navy, Japan Maritime Self Defense Force, cooperation in anti-terrorist activities, dependable military protection in case of rising exigency
4) The United States would provide a Nuclear umbrella for Indonesia
5) Military Arms Trade boost, Military Technology transfers, Military Technology cooperation
6) Significant heightening of people to people cooperation and interaction through science research initiatives, cultural interaction etc
7) A strategic alliance between Indonesia-Japan-United States would provide balance and stability from Northeast Asia, down to Southeast Asia and Pacific.
8) The overall protection of strategic sea lanes that binds all three powers together

@SvenSvensonov , what else do you think ?

You have the benefits down very well, I have little to offer here, but I will dispute the efficacy of point 4 as this would take a major upgrading in relations. Rather, I'll play a bit of devil's advocate as is healthy to any discussion. Siding with the US and Japan will offer many benefits, you have pointed out these with great effect, but it also offers many pitfalls, especially the siding with the US.

1. You have to take a side. No more non-alignment or pure self-interest, this is one of the reasons India hasn't strayed to far into the embrace of the US.
2. The US doesn't consider every partner equal. It will exchange military gear, training and intelligence with you, but only to a point. There are systems Japan is privy to that see South Korea and Israel be given the cold should when they inquire about them.
3. You will be asked to do some unconformable things. Seeking closer trade ties with China? The US might dangle its continued cooperation with you in your face to persuade you to think again. don't want foreign troops on your soil? Good luck leaving this out of the equation.
4. You will make economic compromises. The US will seek preferential trade links and this is going to benefit their side more than yours.
5. You will have foreign hands in your government... just not directly. For a nation that wants to rid itself of corruption, having strong ties with the US is a great way to invite our influence into your policies. We will help dictate the direction of your media, judiciary, military and foreign affairs and even your domestic politics to better suit our interests.

Siding with Japan offers less pitfalls, but one major issue remains especially in the realm of defense cooperation. You will anger China.

These are a few examples. Make no mistake about it, siding with the US is a big deal that offers massive and irreplaceable rewards, but it's a partnership that demands sacrifices too. That said, I would welcome closer ties between the US and all East-Asian nations, and this includes China and other problem states (Cambodia, North Korea...).

 

[Keel]

It is funny when the Japanese are still denying their atrocities done in WW2; and when they are still pursuing aggressive military expansion policies to say co-operation with the other Asians for the greater good of the region; and when the USA has hardly left their old Muslim warzones before they start the next Muslim warzone

Japan, where are your apologies and compensations to the women in great grievances?

Suffering Indonesian "comfort women"

Shall I post more of the pix of the aggrieved women in China, the Philippines, S Korea ... any more in Vietnam?

 

[Aepsilons]

You have the benefits down very well, I have little to offer here, but I will dispute the efficacy of point 4 as this would take a major upgrading in relations. Rather, I'll play a bit of devil's advocate as is healthy to any discussion. Siding with the US and Japan will offer many benefits, you have pointed out these with great effect, but it also offers many pitfalls, especially the siding with the US.

1. You have to take a side. No more non-alignment or pure self-interest, this is one of the reasons India hasn't strayed to far into the embrace of the US.
2. The US doesn't consider every partner equal. It will exchange military gear, training and intelligence with you, but only to a point. There are systems Japan is privy to that see South Korea and Israel be given the cold should when they inquire about them.
3. You will be asked to do some unconformable things. Seeking closer trade ties with China? The US might dangle its continued cooperation with you in your face to persuade you to think again. don't want foreign troops on your soil? Good luck leaving this out of the equation.
4. You will make economic compromises. The US will seek preferential trade links and this is going to benefit their side more than yours.
5. You will have foreign hands in your government... just not directly. For a nation that wants to rid itself of corruption, having strong ties with the US is a great way to invite our influence into your policies. We will help dictate the direction of your media, judiciary, military and foreign affairs and even your domestic politics to better suit our interests.

Siding with Japan offers less pitfalls, but one major issue remains especially in the realm of defense cooperation. You will anger China.

These are a few examples. Make no mistake about it, siding with the US is a big deal that offers massive and irreplaceable rewards, but it's a partnership that demands sacrifices too. That said, I would welcome closer ties between the US and all East-Asian nations, and this includes China and other problem states (Cambodia, North Korea...).

Good point, @SvenSvensonov . There are cost-benefits to this Alliance but in the end, the benefits is greater than any minor costs / sacrifices. Thanks for the detailed input as well, buddy.