Indo-Pak 'Berlin Wall' must be brought down

[su-47]

What India and Pakistan have is an open (ie porous) border and a walled mind, when what we need is an open mind, and a walled border.

As for partition, it happened, and no point talking of whether jinnah or nehru should be leader of united india. 'United India's' leaders were the British. Thank god thats over

 

[Jackdaws]

^^
Lets cut down your big talk and assume a joint india-Pakistan and now tell us who desrved most to be the first President of joint inidan Pakistan?
Nehru or Jinnah?

Nehru was a second rung leader, much junior to Jinnah. He would have ideally gotten some minor ministry like - Fisheries. It would have been a call between Jinnah and Patel - and if history was fair - the 3rd contender would be Subas Chandra Bose. And if Bose would have been around - he would have been the ideal choice. The others were politicians who happened to be patriots. He was a patriot who happened to be a politician.

 

[yashchauhan]

Ok, you really need go take a history lesson. You seem to have no idea of dates and context. Sir Syed died in 1898. Muslim League was formed in 1906! How can he be a founder of the league?

Like I said he favored a cooperative attitude with the British and to gain education which most of the Hindus were doing at that time instead of a confrontational one. While at the same time he was against the colonialism of the British.

And Muslim League only advocated Muslim rights until the mid 1930s and not a creation of a separate state.

It was only post 1938, particularly after 1940 that it started advocated for a more separatist and later an independent state. In this process the Hindu parties like the Hindu Mahasabha played an equal role by scuttling any consensus to be reached.

This was one of the reasons where the Congress asked all members in 1936-37 to sever links with both the Muslim League and Hindu Mahasabha for it being communal organizations and causing great problems for the freedom movement. Before that many Congress members had dual membership of both the league and Congress or Mahasabha and Congress. Example Sardar Patel and Maulana Azad, MA Jinnah and many others

Supporters of Sir Syed contend that his political vision gave an independent political expression to the Muslim community, which aided its goal of securing political power in India.[18] His philosophy guided the creation of the All India Muslim League in 1906, as a political party separate from the Congress. Sir Syed's ideas inspired both the liberal, pro-British politicians of the Muslim League and the religious ideologues of the Khilafat struggle

......sir syed ahmed khan was rather an idealogy..........much like gandhi......he propogated modern islam......a liberal view for muslims......an education and secular muslims views......rathers than jinnah's hindu muslim separatist one.........i meant to say if only gandhi and sir khan(ideology not person) we together....then pakistan would have no been there.........now.....got.....it!

 

[Omar1984]

The only "Berlin Wall" between Pakistan and India that must be brought down is the Line of Control separating Pakistan's Azad Kashmir from India Occupied Kashmir.


Keep the wall up high between Pakistan's Punjab and India's Punjab and between Pakistan's Sindh and India's Rajasthan/Gujrat. No one in Pakistan's Punjab province has relatives in Indian Punjab state anymore, all of them either migrated to Pakistan or were killed when they were trying to migrate to Pakistan, same with India's Rajasthan/Gujrat.


The only relatives that have been separated because of a "wall" is the Line of Control separating Pakistan's Azad Kashmir from India Occupied Kashmir. Tear that wall down. Secure the International Borders.

 

[Omar1984]

Eventually, the "Berlin wall" has to be brought down for Pakistan's benefit but also for India to assume a greater responsibility in the world at large.
There were recent talks of India-Bangladesh opening all pre-1965 links which is sure to spur investment and development in Bangladesh and hopefully stop the illegal economic migration of Bangladeshis into India if any and vice versa.

And lets not forget that Jinnah himself is quoted to have said that he expected India Pakistan relations to be like that of US-Canada. So Pakistanis who oppose any links with Pakistan should take heed and know that Jinnah after all was ethnically from Gujarat. Not to mention the sizable population of muhajirs and Punjabis who migrated from India as well.

Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah did not work day and night for Gujratis. He worked day and night for PAKISTANIS. He was born in Karachi, that was his home.

Even when he was in his final stages of tuberculosis and knew his time on earth was almost over, he built a nation for Pakistanis, he did not do anything for Gujratis he did it for Pakistanis. Shows you where his heart belonged.

As for wanting relations like U.S. and Canada. Quaid-e-Azam did not know that we would have to battle 4 wars against India. U.S. and Canada had no battles against each other. A very large Canada even sold parts of its territory to U.S.


As for Punjabis and Mohajirs, no Pakistani Punjabi has relatives in Indian Punjab anymore. After partition, they either all migrated to Pakistan or were slaughtered by indian punjabis. We have no relation with indian punjabis they are strangers like any other foreigner, our heart is with Pakistanis regardless of their ethnic group.

As for Urdu speaking Mohajirs, some of them have relatives living in India but their relatives are scattered all across india, so whats the use of having the border open between Sindh Province of Pakistan and the Indian states of Rajasthan and Gujrat and those relatives of theirs chose to stay in India so thats where they shall stay forever.


The only relatives that have been separated because of a wall are Kashmiris. The Line of Control is separating relatives of Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir from Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir. Tear the Line of Control down.

 

[Jackdaws]

Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah did not work day and night for Gujratis. He worked day and night for PAKISTANIS. He was born in Karachi, that was his home.

Even when he was in his final stages of tuberculosis and knew his time on earth was almost over, he built a nation for Pakistanis, he did not do anything for Gujratis he did it for Pakistanis. Shows you where his heart belonged.

As for wanting relations like U.S. and Canada. Quaid-e-Azam did not know that we would have to battle 4 wars against India. U.S. and Canada had no battles against each other. A very large Canada even sold parts of its territory to U.S.


As for Punjabis and Mohajirs, no Pakistani Punjabi has relatives in Indian Punjab anymore. After partition, they either all migrated to Pakistan or were slaughtered by indian punjabis. We have no relation with indian punjabis they are strangers like any other foreigner, our heart is with Pakistanis regardless of their ethnic group.

As for Urdu speaking Mohajirs, some of them have relatives living in India but their relatives are scattered all across india, so whats the use of having the border open between Sindh Province of Pakistan and the Indian states of Rajasthan and Gujrat and those relatives of theirs chose to stay in India so thats where they shall stay forever.


The only relatives that have been separated because of a wall are Kashmiris. The Line of Control is separating relatives of Kashmiris in India Occupied Kashmir from Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir. Tear the Line of Control down.

We are fine with it - as far as the conditions in the Treaty of Accession are met and whole of J&K becomes part of India - including P-o-K. That way Kashmiris are no longer divided. I am fine with the rest of borders being sealed forever.

 

[EjazR]

Supporters of Sir Syed contend that his political vision gave an independent political expression to the Muslim community, which aided its goal of securing political power in India.[18] His philosophy guided the creation of the All India Muslim League in 1906, as a political party separate from the Congress. Sir Syed's ideas inspired both the liberal, pro-British politicians of the Muslim League and the religious ideologues of the Khilafat struggle

......sir syed ahmed khan was rather an idealogy..........much like gandhi......he propogated modern islam......a liberal view for muslims......an education and secular muslims views......rathers than jinnah's hindu muslim separatist one.........i meant to say if only gandhi and sir khan(ideology not person) we together....then pakistan would have no been there.........now.....got.....it!

Thanks for the clarification. Your mentioning that Sir Syed founded the Muslim League was the point I didn't agree with. But I guess you meant it in an ideological way.

Although I must say that many people claim to follow ideals of great personalities but fall far short of following them in spirit. The examples are all around us

 

[EjazR]

@Omar1984

The main plank that Muslim League was working on was "protection of muslim" particularly in the muslim minority provinces.

You mention that Jinnah had no idea that 4 wars will be fought. In fact, he (and many Indian leaders) had no idea how horrific the partition would be. Please remember that the partition resulted in the mass killings in Punjab province and not the other way around.

And ask those who do have families on both sides of the border what they think. And they are plenty of muslim Punjabi families in India as well, just like there still are plenty of sikh and hindu families in Pakistani Punjab. Although of course their percentages has been drastically reduced.

And only a insecure nation would advocate closed borders for eternity. How ironic that people from miles away from different cultural backgrounds (US/UK China e.t.c.) can visit our countries but we can't visit each other despite speaking the same language and sharing history? Wouldn't Pakistani be interested in finding out about Gujarat, or Mumbai were the ancestors of MA Jinnah came from, where he was born and grew up? And would'nt sikhs in India want to their holy places in Pakistan while Hindus visit places of historical importance there as well? It was after all in the Indus valley that the vedas were first revealed/written.

Something to ponder upon. I don't say we will have open borders in our lifetime even, but eventually to be a successful bloc it would happen as the entire world gets integrated and connected with each other. Not just S. Asia, but eventually the entire world should be like that.

 

[KS]

it is illusion of some people in pakistan that we Indian believe in "Akhand Bharat". This is not the reality. The RSS/BJP type of people are a minority and will always remain so.

FYI..not even RSS much less BJP speak of Akhand Bharat now.

 

[khanz]

no thx we are two-seperate countries theres an international border between them so wall needs to stay.Indians stay on their side and pakistanis stay on theirs.

 

[yashchauhan]

BJP AND RSS have never gained as much popularity and support as congress( a secular party).......congress had secular leaders like Lal Bahadur Shastri,Rajiv and now Manmohan singh...........its leaders like P chidambaram are very secular and open in their views.......

here are some videos...

A pakistani video........a really like this man......most genuine Pakistani ive ever seen...

 

[Pride]

@Omar1984

The main plank that Muslim League was working on was "protection of muslim" particularly in the muslim minority provinces.

You mention that Jinnah had no idea that 4 wars will be fought. In fact, he (and many Indian leaders) had no idea how horrific the partition would be. Please remember that the partition resulted in the mass killings in Punjab province and not the other way around.

And ask those who do have families on both sides of the border what they think. And they are plenty of muslim Punjabi families in India as well, just like there still are plenty of sikh and hindu families in Pakistani Punjab. Although of course their percentages has been drastically reduced.

And only a insecure nation would advocate closed borders for eternity. How ironic that people from miles away from different cultural backgrounds (US/UK China e.t.c.) can visit our countries but we can't visit each other despite speaking the same language and sharing history? Wouldn't Pakistani be interested in finding out about Gujarat, or Mumbai were the ancestors of MA Jinnah came from, where he was born and grew up? And would'nt sikhs in India want to their holy places in Pakistan while Hindus visit places of historical importance there as well? It was after all in the Indus valley that the vedas were first revealed/written.

Something to ponder upon. I don't say we will have open borders in our lifetime even, but eventually to be a successful bloc it would happen as the entire world gets integrated and connected with each other. Not just S. Asia, but eventually the entire world should be like that.

One more question always pops up to my mind.. Why only muslims were afraid of suppression by Hindus in undivided India? Why not other religions like Sikhs, Buddhists,Christians and Jains etc.. They also may think in the same way and want a separate country for the same...

 

[jha]

BJP AND RSS have never gained as much popularity and support as congress( a secular party).......congress had secular leaders like Lal Bahadur Shastri,Rajiv and now Manmohan singh...........its leaders like P chidambaram are very secular and open in their views.......

here are some videos...

A pakistani video........a really like this man......most genuine Pakistani ive ever seen...
YouTube - Javed: India's Rise due to Leadership Excellence

YouTube - Javed: Pakistani vs Indian Character

STOP chest pumping...how many SHASTRI JIs you find among us INDIANs....dont compare our best from their worst...IT is the india only where we have LALU, MAYAWATI and DEVEGOWDA...
We had our share of great people but the kind of rotten trash now we have in the most important field i.e. Politics....a lot has to be done..

 

[T-Faz]

Mr Gorbachov, tear down this wall.

Funny thing, many of the Pak military officers and Taliban were awarded pieces of the Berlin wall after their win against the Soviets in Washignton.

 

[yashchauhan]

STOP chest pumping...how many SHASTRI JIs you find among us INDIANs....dont compare our best from their worst...IT is the india only where we have LALU, MAYAWATI and DEVEGOWDA...
We had our share of great people but the kind of rotten trash now we have in the most important field i.e. Politics....a lot has to be done..

no matter how dark the evil a small light of good peirces through......and the good ones are on the top of indian political heirarchy(PM,HM,FM).......lalu has been replaced by Nitish and bihar is developing like a ferrai on loose..........and come 2012 mayawati will be replaced by rahul gandhi.......deve gowda is just a barking dog now......

even the so called bjp has NoMo(improved version) to name a few...now please break your sunny deol made indian politician stereotype.....break the berlin wall of ice.......and be warm and +VE...i so much worries.join Indian politics(like i ve done)...a make the change!