India’s Quest for American Avenger Drones

[Maj.Osmani]

well i dont know any major in our army who talks or say tries to joke like that ... must be a "martial race thing"

I know your army very well and since I apologize your comment is unnecessary.
No further discussion in a positive note possible with you and other fallows.
Thanks and Regards,

 

[Tamilnadu]

And in this confusion Pakistan nuke India
Write it with blood...US will never sell these drons to India, they are fools to change the balance of power in this subcontinent which may resulted in a nuclear war. They don't care Pakistan much but India and they don't want that India loose military and economic power against China in avoidable war.
@GURU DUTT

Where or which or what balance are you talking about.world war started because of one single sniper bullet.

Its your ego which made you bring Nukes.I dont think it will be used for raids on deep inside Pakistan.when this thing flies high in the Indian airspace near the border,it can see deep inside Pakistani territory.what happens deep inside Pakistan is not our concern.what concerns us is what happens near the border mainly terrorists crossing over.if we kill few terrorists when then just enter or about to enter the Indian side,Pakistan should be happy.

 

[Viper0011.]

SOURCE: VISHAL KARPE / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India in last few months has been sending feelers in American Political and diplomatic circles on its interest to acquire jet-powered General Atomics developed Unmanned combat capable Predator C aka Avengers drones and as per recent media reports India has officially has asked the United States to export 100 armed Predator C Avengers to India .

Can India get these? With her current relationship going to new higher high's with the US......absolutely in a few years. I don't see any issues with it.

India has made its intention pretty clear to United states that Stealthy Avenger UCAV if supplied to India will lead the first wave of Cross-border raids against Terrorist camps/infrastructures and also might be used to take out enemy air defence systems or deep targets in the event of full-scale war.

Now will the US support this fanboy bullshiit risking an entire region into a Nuclear exchange? F**ck NO!! This is clear stupidity. Pakistan doesn't retaliate against the US drone strikes as 90% of them are already coordinated with the Pakistanis and that's actually helpful for FATA operations. The remainder 10% are when the US detects a high value target and decides to act on her own. But outside of this, the US and Pakistan have been friends / allies for the past 70 years. Whether the relationships been loving or rocky, its a different story.

Now will Pakistan allow India to attack cross border? HELL NO, India isn't a US and India's never maintained a friendly relationship with Pakistan. In fact, both are arch rivals. So be careful in what you wish for. Any cross border will get an immediate response from the Pakistanis and it can escalate to full war. Why risk millions of civilian lives to show a fake act of a wana-be macho-man??

 

[egodoc222]

We've always had serious misgivings about selling armed UAVs, even to allied nations like France and Italy, India's important as a tool in our geopolitical shed, but an aircraft like the Avenger with a long-range and large payload is the kind of system the US prefers not to be proliferating.

If sold, I doubt the Avenger India would receive would have the option of being armed.

We're also very stingy with our sales of advanced ISR equipment, but would be more willing to stuff the internal bay with such then weapons. India would get to pick its pods, we've no desire to sell our top-end surveillance gear to anyone.

Realistically, the US would be more keen on selling India the MQ-4 as it's a long-range ISR platform tailor made for keeping an eye on Chinese movements, which is a concern of ours that India could help with.

India gets its UAV for maritime recon, one that synergizes with its P-8I, we get a share of the intelligence data.

If we're selling India a UAV for keeping tabs on Pakistan, the likelihood of it being a Reaper variant is greater (even an armed version would be in the works).

The US had an issue selling India ISR gear for its P-8Is and for its C-130s, so I'm not confident we'd offer them systems like Gorgon Stare either.

They'll be sourcing from a European or domestic supplier instead.

Avenger isn't DQ'd from the start, but it does run into issues with red-lines the US doesn't like to cross (that it's armed would be the biggest sticking point). Armed drones, even with India's admissions into the MTCR, aren't items the US likes to proliferate. At present, the US has cleared India's procurement of Predator XP - an unarmed UAV.

And though it could be a foot-in-the-door approach to selling UAVs to India, it still shows the US isn't yet ready to offer India anything too qualitative.

Lol and yet US is ready to sell 'teens' as if 100 of them won't shift balance....

 

[SvenSvensonov]

Lol and yet US is ready to sell 'teens' as if 100 of them won't shift balance....

I said nothing about the "balance." I did say the US is reticent to sell armed UAVs, which is true.

France operates the MQ-9 Reaper.

But was only recently cleared to operate the armed version.

The UK joins France as an operator of the armed version.

As does Italy - the second foreign nation behind the UK to weaponized the type, and one of only three to do so.

The Dominican Republic, Australia and Spain use an unarmed version, though the latter two are also exploring armed varieties.

This reluctance to sell armed UAVs, even to top-tier allies, has directly contributed to the sale of alternatives to US partners, such as the CH-4 to Iraq. And Heron to Germany.

Accept it or not, the US is still reluctant to sell armed UAVs especially in a diplomatically sensitive arena like Indo-Pak relations, where UAVs have an especially negative reaction.

Don't equate our aircraft and UAV export policies, both follow a very different track.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

SOURCE: VISHAL KARPE / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India in last few months has been sending feelers in American Political and diplomatic circles on its interest to acquire jet-powered General Atomics developed Unmanned combat capable Predator C aka Avengers drones and as per recent media reports India has officially has asked the United States to export 100 armed Predator C Avengers to India .

General Atomics Avenger is Stealthy unmanned combat air vehicle powered by a turbofan engine which features reduced radar and heat signature also comes with other features such as internal weapons storage, Six external hard points,Triple-redundant avionics,also has on board avionics like Synthetic Aperture Radar and AESA Sensors and can perform wide-area surveillance, time-sensitive strike missions over land or sea, and a host of other challenging military missions.

In Short Avenger UCAV is not a weapon system ideally will be used to take out Terrorist or Maoists hideouts within its own territory but more of a weapon system which can be used to carry out sneaky cross-border raids on Terrorist camps or infrastructure while avoiding detection by enemy radars to ensure survivability of the drone in a contested environment.

India has made its intention pretty clear to United states that Stealthy Avenger UCAV if supplied to India will lead the first wave of Cross-border raids against Terrorist camps/infrastructures and also might be used to take out enemy air defence systems or deep targets in the event of full-scale war.

U.S. government late last year cleared General Atomics’ proposal to market the unarmed Predator XP drones to India and has a first step plans to acquire nearly 40 drones for surveillance and monitoring of its border areas and coastlines for its Air force and Navy . Even though India already has in its possession few hundred of Israeli supplied drones order for unarmed Predator XP drones by India is seen as first steps in acquiring Avengers in a long term .

India will also be taking deliveries of 10 armed Heron TP drones from Israel this year and is also investing in the development of Armed variant of Rustom-2 HALE Class UCAV in near future . DRDO also plans to develop its own stealth combat drones or UCAVs (unmanned combat aerial vehicles), which will be capable of firing missiles and precision-guided munitions at enemy targets and possession of Avengers UCAV with India might allow its engineers to get a better understanding of Jet powered UCAVS.

General Atomics developed Avenger UCAVs is yet to be ordered by US Military and according to media reports Pentagon has acquired only one drone for Internal testing and evaluation purpose but still has not made up its mind whether it will be placing orders for the drone yet and on other hand officials from General Atomics have been pressuring Americans State Department officials to let it pursue India’s Interest in acquiring Avenger UCAVs which will help them crack first sales orders for its Avenger UCAVs which officials believe might eventually lead to bigger orders from US Military and its allies .

But now the question remain will United states will be keen on supplying such offensive weapons system to India which can start a nuclear conflict in the region ? an offensive weapons systems which both Pakistan and China will object to ? to that Americans should come out of their ostrich-like attitude adopted by them on export of its drone technology to its allies since they don’t find anything wrong in supply of Apache Gunships or their desire to supply India with American jets then they should also not have problem with supply of Armed Drones to India.


http://idrw.org/indias-quest-for-american-avenger-drones/

Eventually they could be sold to India...but not right now. As has been stated it took years for Britain and a few others just to get Reapers...advanced Avengers is going to take some waiting...unless they offer some big package in return (SSPARS/PAVE PAWS location) that we'd be nutz to decline.

This is a nasty machine

 

[Hulk]

US and India are in discussion about drones for a while, they are willing to sell some unarmed drones but not armed. If both can agree to something that works for India, you will see this happen.

Can India get these? With her current relationship going to new higher high's with the US......absolutely in a few years. I don't see any issues with it.



Now will the US support this fanboy bullshiit risking an entire region into a Nuclear exchange? F**ck NO!! This is clear stupidity. Pakistan doesn't retaliate against the US drone strikes as 90% of them are already coordinated with the Pakistanis and that's actually helpful for FATA operations. The remainder 10% are when the US detects a high value target and decides to act on her own. But outside of this, the US and Pakistan have been friends / allies for the past 70 years. Whether the relationships been loving or rocky, its a different story.

Now will Pakistan allow India to attack cross border? HELL NO, India isn't a US and India's never maintained a friendly relationship with Pakistan. In fact, both are arch rivals. So be careful in what you wish for. Any cross border will get an immediate response from the Pakistanis and it can escalate to full war. Why risk millions of civilian lives to show a fake act of a wana-be macho-man??

Thats why Armed will not come anytime soon, unarmed is fine. People do over estimate Pakistan escalating things, there might be some tension but that's about it. Their ability to escalate is way lower than ours. Some people mentioned nuke, its not even a good joke anymore. Nukes cannot even come in play unless few weeks of war is on and some key city is at risk of falling, that is the first threshold. The max that can happen even if we do an airstrike is an airstrike. However, India does not have the clout to do an armed drone attack, it will be limited to spying alone.

 

[Piper]

I said nothing about the "balance." I did say the US is reticent to sell armed UAVs, which is true.

France operates the MQ-9 Reaper.

But was only recently cleared to operate the armed version.

The UK joins France as an operator of the armed version.

As does Italy - the second foreign nation behind the UK to weaponized the type, and one of only three to do so.

The Dominican Republic, Australia and Spain use an unarmed version, though the latter two are also exploring armed varieties.

This reluctance to sell armed UAVs, even to top-tier allies, has directly contributed to the sale of alternatives to US partners, such as the CH-4 to Iraq. And Heron to Germany.

Accept it or not, the US is still reluctant to sell armed UAVs especially in a diplomatically sensitive arena like Indo-Pak relations, where UAVs have an especially negative reaction.

Don't equate our aircraft and UAV export policies, both follow a very different track.

It is a fluid situation. Obama and subsequent Hillary administration are more than likely to maintain the status quo while a Trump administration can be disruptive if it takes a more radical approach to Af-Pak problem by commandeering India into the midst of this quagmire. In such a case all bets are off.

You have also rightly stated that UAV export controls are lot more stringent due to the disruptive dynamic it introduces into nuclear deterrence framework and I am not sure if we are willing to give up on Pakistan just yet. It would more likely to be a long drawn out retreat rather than a clean break up where US-Pak is concerned.

The other factor is the famous Indian strategic ambiguity, in absence of a firm commitment by India where it subscribes to US posture or atleast aligns with it, I see no reason for US to reward India with such disruptive tech.

From an Indian PoV, while avengers are desirable they would likely come with extraneous cost and I guess India would like a little more flex in it's geopolitical maneuvering by going for middle shelf options like armed herons.

 

[T-72M1]

yup. we're not getting any armed drones from the US, Heron TPs will be our strike drone.

 

[dadeechi]

It is a fluid situation. Obama and subsequent Hillary administration are more than likely to maintain the status quo while a Trump administration can be disruptive if it takes a more radical approach to Af-Pak problem by commandeering India into the midst of this quagmire. In such a case all bets are off.

You have also rightly stated that UAV export controls are lot more stringent due to the disruptive dynamic it introduces into nuclear deterrence framework and I am not sure if we are willing to give up on Pakistan just yet. It would more likely to be a long drawn out retreat rather than a clean break up where US-Pak is concerned.

The other factor is the famous Indian strategic ambiguity, in absence of a firm commitment by India where it subscribes to US posture or atleast aligns with it, I see no reason for US to reward India with such disruptive tech.

From an Indian PoV, while avengers are desirable they would likely come with extraneous cost and I guess India would like a little more flex in it's geopolitical maneuvering by going for middle shelf options like armed herons.

Frankly speaking India does need a UCAV at this point time. Any UCAV deal with US is purely a reward for US' efforts in successfully pushing India's MTCR membership.

India has historically shied away from getting involved in any international conflicts be it Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan or SCS.

West leaning incumbent BJP government of Modi has been successful in India dumping the non-alignment policy and is signing the foundational agreements with US. Hence the signs are very bright that India would join US in such conflicts in future.

 

[Mentee]

Use it against Pakistan. They will get confused whether it is american or India

in this case hurry up,its very much probable that they might change their minds and we'll be witnessing some vaahan's wreckage
btw i like your taunt kal moohay

 

[temporary12345]

Frankly speaking India does need a UCAV at this point time. Any UCAV deal with US is purely a reward for US' efforts in successfully pushing India's MTCR membership.

India has historically shied away from getting involved in any international conflicts be it Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan or SCS.

West leaning incumbent BJP government of Modi has been successful in India dumping the non-alignment policy and is signing the foundational agreements with US. Hence the signs are very bright that India would join US in such conflicts in future.

+ It is unwise to depend on foreigners for drones. The degree of control that OEM could exert over drones is much much higher than that exerted over a fighter aircraft. As far as possible, you should design your UCAVs.

India needing this and India needing that is just a brainfart of some bored journalists. Frankly, India atm does not need anything from USA except F-414 Engines for Tejas and to some extent C-17 if available. Any purchase from USA is a political purchase done for quip pro-quo and inclusion of US weapons is actually harmful for India as would lead to duplication of effort like building infra for Rafale and also for F-16 because some F-16s have to brought for sake of political relations.

You have also rightly stated that UAV export controls are lot more stringent due to the disruptive dynamic it introduces into nuclear deterrence framework and I am not sure if we are willing to give up on Pakistan just yet. It would more likely to be a long drawn out retreat rather than a clean break up where US-Pak is concerned.

This reason ,although repeated by a lot of people, is a load of bullshit; and whosoever started it did not applied his/her mind.

What disruption?

What could a drone do which a manned aircraft or a missile could not do more effectively?

Only positive that a drone has over a manned aircraft is cost efficiency ,both material and human; else it does not bring any new capability on table which could not be bested by a manned aircraft ot a missile.

 

[Viper0011.]

Thats why Armed will not come anytime soon, unarmed is fine. People do over estimate Pakistan escalating things, there might be some tension but that's about it. Their ability to escalate is way lower than ours. Some people mentioned nuke, its not even a good joke anymore. Nukes cannot even come in play unless few weeks of war is on and some key city is at risk of falling, that is the first threshold. The max that can happen even if we do an airstrike is an airstrike. However, India does not have the clout to do an armed drone attack, it will be limited to spying alone.

This part of your post is fanboy-ism and blind patriotism. History is the BEST predictor of the future (a wise man said it centuries ago and it's been true over hundreds of past years). Pakistan's entire defensive posture has always been India based. If they allow ONE incident from India today, the entire morale of the Pakistan Army who has managed to hold its own in three wars, will go down. Not to mention, when you allow an enemy to slap, what's next? They will try to cut your arm and head eventually. So mark my words and I hope you don't have to remember my post after learning the "hard way"...........any attack from India, into the Pakistani territory will require a response, nothing less. Then, that response would require a response from India, nothing less. And then.........all shiit will hit the fan and spread across crazy. I hope you can imagine the scene of shiit spreading through a fan!!

There were the SU-30's and everything else in 2008 and even after all these years.What happened? If India was SO macho like this article "suggests" through fan boy writers, why did India not attack Pakistan? Well, that's the same point I am trying to make. The Indian Military and Political Leadership think differently then you. They had damaged assess the situation and the outcome. The best option was, to work with Pakistan and push them to provide justice and capture the bad guys. And that should always be the case. Either side dealing with a sad incident, should work with the other side to get proper help to ensure that doesn't happen again, and the bad guys are caught.There is no reason to get hundreds of millions of people killed in a war. It didn't produce anything in the previous three wars and it won't produce a Dollar worth of productivity if a war breaks out again.

Also, remember, in any war, India, due to her economic strength and growing ambitions, loses a LOT more than Pakistan. In fact, if I was a strategy planner sitting inside New Delhi, I would openly tell the PM of India and others, that the BIGGEST hurdle in India's way to be a big regional power (that you guys so want to be), is Pakistan, not China. And a war would weaken both sides, but India would lose the financial and military strength and will go ten years behind v. China (which is your DIRECT competitor at that level). So why lose your credentials to a much smaller country and miss out on bigger achievements in the world when you can settle this peacefully, with trade and no war and terrorism pact like the EU has in place?? So the best option, would be to do a no war, no terrorism and trade pact with Pakistan. And continue to grow as a regional power.

Eventually they could be sold to India...but not right now. As has been stated it took years for Britain and a few others just to get Reapers...advanced Avengers is going to take some waiting...unless they offer some big package in return (SSPARS/PAVE PAWS location) that we'd be nutz to decline.

This is a nasty machine

The armed version won't be sold to India until some agreement is in place that these will never be used for cross border offensives. I can guarantee you this. You and some others are too high on blind Indian patriotism but the last thing the US wants is to see a war between the two of these nations. In many ways, the US is more worried about India's financial growth then India is. So the dictation will come from the US. Senator John McCain issues a statement two days ago on Modi's visit that with all that the US is willing to provide to India, Indian better act like an ally and a partner.

This has a strong meaning coming from one of the top republican law maker who actually ran for the President not too long ago. He is VERY well respected and has a lot of say within the republican establishment.

And the last line, its not a machine. Its a lethal and deadly system with tremendous force. It destroys whatever it hits!!

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

This part of your post is fanboy-ism and blind patriotism. History is the BEST predictor of the future (a wise man said it centuries ago and it's been true over hundreds of past years). Pakistan's entire defensive posture has always been India based. If they allow ONE incident from India today, the entire morale of the Pakistan Army who has managed to hold its own in three wars, will go down. Not to mention, when you allow an enemy to slap, what's next? They will try to cut your arm and head eventually. So mark my words and I hope you don't have to remember my post after learning the "hard way"...........any attack from India, into the Pakistani territory will require a response, nothing less. Then, that response would require a response from India, nothing less. And then.........all shiit will hit the fan and spread across crazy. I hope you can imagine the scene of shiit spreading through a fan!!

There were the SU-30's and everything else in 2008 and even after all these years.What happened? If India was SO macho like this article "suggests" through fan boy writers, why did India not attack Pakistan? Well, that's the same point I am trying to make. The Indian Military and Political Leadership think differently then you. They had damaged assess the situation and the outcome. The best option was, to work with Pakistan and push them to provide justice and capture the bad guys. And that should always be the case. Either side dealing with a sad incident, should work with the other side to get proper help to ensure that doesn't happen again, and the bad guys are caught.There is no reason to get hundreds of millions of people killed in a war. It didn't produce anything in the previous three wars and it won't produce a Dollar worth of productivity if a war breaks out again.

Also, remember, in any war, India, due to her economic strength and growing ambitions, loses a LOT more than Pakistan. In fact, if I was a strategy planner sitting inside New Delhi, I would openly tell the PM of India and others, that the BIGGEST hurdle in India's way to be a big regional power (that you guys so want to be), is Pakistan, not China. And a war would weaken both sides, but India would lose the financial and military strength and will go ten years behind v. China (which is your DIRECT competitor at that level). So why lose your credentials to a much smaller country and miss out on bigger achievements in the world when you can settle this peacefully, with trade and no war and terrorism pact like the EU has in place?? So the best option, would be to do a no war, no terrorism and trade pact with Pakistan. And continue to grow as a regional power.



The armed version won't be sold to India until some agreement is in place that these will never be used for cross border offensives. I can guarantee you this. You and some others are too high on blind Indian patriotism but the last thing the US wants is to see a war between the two of these nations. In many ways, the US is more worried about India's financial growth then India is. So the dictation will come from the US. Senator John McCain issues a statement two days ago on Modi's visit that with all that the US is willing to provide to India, Indian better act like an ally and a partner.

This has a strong meaning coming from one of the top republican law maker who actually ran for the President not too long ago. He is VERY well respected and has a lot of say within the republican establishment.

And the last line, its not a machine. Its a lethal and deadly system with tremendous force. It destroys whatever it hits!!

Well the Avenger is more aimed at being an armed drone versus simple surveillance. India doesn't need a sophisticated Avenger to keep an eye on its border areas. A Predator can easily do that. If they want an Avenger they have something more serious in mind and that's why the US is hesitant to sell drones like that.

 

[Blue Marlin]

no way forget it. france spain and italy had a hard time trying to get the less capable mq-9 and the avenger is a whole new bird with a lot more punch. they would have problems getting an armed mq-9. get the hermes 900 instead much easier to buy and remember india has joined the mtcr so that means no unmanned vechile with a range of 300km and weapons payload of 500kg.