India's patience on terror not unlimited: Robert Gates

[Peshwa]

I think if a terrorist group attack India, India should seek to wipe out that group. India should learn a thing or two from Israel. Send in some commandos to wipe out the terrorist groups and camps. Assasinate the terrorist leader. It must do something.

Its just sad that India media talk so much about India might and its military ability but can't even deal with the terrorists properly.

Ok lets look at it this way.....

The alpha superpower in the world, US....the country you reside in, has been in Afghanistan searching for "terrorist leaders"....and is still looking...for 8 years now
With apex technology, a world renowned spy agency, some of the best special forces and all the resources at their disposal along with the co-operation from Pak and AF.....Now if they havent been able to pull this off....why hold India to such high standards??....
And do note that there is a world of difference between conventional might and fighting an insurgency.....2 different ball games!!

What does the Indian govt, IA and its agencies have to do with what Media reports??.....
Unlike some communist states, the Indian Govt cannot control the stories in the media....thats what free speech is all about....

 

[footmarks]

I think if a terrorist group attack India, India should seek to wipe out that group. India should learn a thing or two from Israel. Send in some commandos to wipe out the terrorist groups and camps. Assasinate the terrorist leader. It must do something.

Its just sad that India media talk so much about India might and its military ability but can't even deal with the terrorists properly.[/QUOTE]

Its even worse that People outside India believe in such media concocted stories way more than Indians do. Media is said to be the fourth pillar of democracy. Strangely, this fourth piller of Indian democracy is so strong that it not only make Indian Democratic foundations strong, Its also supporting our neighbours fantasies who take it as Official Mouthpeice of Govt. as is the case in their own country.

BTW, there are alot of newspapers with Socialist/Communist tilt also published in India. You may also refer them if you are searching for Sensational stories against India. Its free here man, I can also start publishing a newspaper/magazine regarding anything in India. Govt dont control media, they only regulate just like they regulate interest rates. There are far more pressing problems to control than foolish media generated stories.

 

[oceanx]

No doubt about your bolded part...Even though they have let us down on some occasion however they are very potent...

Now lets discuss about the option that you are asking for...Let me ask you a question...What is your objective of taking the war to Pakistan??? I believe it is to let them know that if they will support terrorism in India we will return them the same favor... and by doing this Pak will understand that they cannot continue spreading of terrorism in India without paying cost...I hope i got it right???

Now let me share my apprehentions with it...

a) Most importantly it will mean that we are writing death sentence of innocents in Pakistan..... I am strictly agaisnt this barbarism...

b) Since it is a defence forum so lets leave emotions(Point 1) aside and see it from strategic angle..

- First of all even if we indulge in spreading terrorism in Pakistan this will no way make India safe.. All we will achieve is kill some of their people for killings of our own people.
- India has earned lot of respect and fame accross the world by showing restraint during Kargil, Parliament Attack, Mumbai Attack etc. Just remember what Gates said a few days back. This restraint has helped us immensely and improvised our PR. By product is that deals like NSG waiver for nuclear deal was far easy that it would have been otherwise.....
- Brand india is improving day by day and people consider us as a responsible nation and a super power in making.
- After 9/11 world has changed and supporting terror in any form is a Big NO-NO...We will loose a lot than gain if we choose to adopt terror tactics and consider them as strategic weapons. Just look at what is happening in Pakistan...
- List is endless. Though my above points will give you an inclination of what i am upto.


Now the bigger question is what the heck shall we do??? We just can't sit and take on attacks after attack and do nothing about it... The answer is Diplomacy... I know we did not get the desired results in the past but mumbai changed the game...We are on offensive and have been able to corner Pakistan to some extent...Now have it given us what we hoped for?? May be not but surely it has given us a lot as compared to past results....

What if diplomacy Fails

Then IMO only way is implement the cold start doctorine... We have spent about $50 billion in last few years...After all such toys need to be used at the time of emergency...Not a full-fledged war but a limited war(here world opinion will help keep the conflict intact and certainly will back India)....There is no other OPTION.....

That's a largely sensible post, deckingraj. India held back and India and Pakistan both "gained" - insofar as possible from a tragedy such as the one over a year ago; Israel unleashed and Israel lost.

At least in the court of world opinion - there is no doubt about that.

However, as much as I applaud your emphasis on diplomacy, I would have to personally withhold my thumbs-up due to the glaring deficiency - IMO - of your last paragraph.

This "Cold Start" is a dangerous doctrine - for India. It might "soothe the pain". But like painkillers, whether or not it kills you depends on how many you take. Quietly lobbing some rockets (which happens with some regularity already), shutting down diplomatic missions, anything is more preferable than these painkillers.

Cursed, I mean cursed is anyone who thinks Amrika and Israel are going to stand by India's side in a land and air war against Pakistan under the "nuclear overhang" even if you promise "96 hours" of goodliness and cleanliness and nothing but calculated "attrition" ...

Sure, Izzies helped you in 1998 over a little skirmish with some UAVs, satellite surveilance, what not. But anyone who thinks Izzies are going to help you help you in a real war involving battalions of tanks and squadrons of airplanes is as delusional as the Georgians who think their Israeli trainers are going to help them repel Russians.

The Isszy's whole mission in life is to stay alive with pride (not dissimilar from most I suppose). Will overtly helping your "cold start" increase or decrease the chance of a dirty bomb rendering Tel Aviv uninhabitable for the next 500 years? Will helping you "teach Pakistan a lesson" ala Lebanon increase or decrease their "esteem" around the world?

Those Indians who relish the so-called American-Israeli-Indian axis do not realize what a double-edged sword this axis could be.

Not the least because Yankees and Izzies are quite self-conscious of it - so much so that they deny its appearance at every turn. Now if India is in imminent danger of being overrun, that's a different scenario. But to help you in your little offensive "cold start"?

Let me spell it out: in your vaunted Cold Turkey, you'll be lucky to get the same amount of support from America as Saakashvili received not that long ago for his "loyalty". I give you less in fact.

Israelis? Hehe ...

Sure, they will sell to you and I'm sure the Forex is ready to be tapped.

Now in a hot war, particularly a defensive one, you already know who are going to support Pakistan. In short, what you may get into is an attrition of Indian lives and Indian Forex-purchased equipment against Pakistani lives and Chinese equipment. I am convinced by my reading of the current tea leaves that the PRC will support Pakistan in a defensive war essentially with no holds barred - meaning "free everything" if necessary.

Besides, what better way to exhaust all that idle capacity in China nowadays?

So are you sure you are going to come up on top of such a war of "attrition"?

What about Russia? Well it's not a question of whether Russia would be willing. Could Russia supply you for "free", or at cost? And even if Russia does, then what would your other Patron say?

Let's look at another example in history. During the Vietnam war, did NATO help the US? Not even Canada! So Americans faced die-hard Viet Con soldiers, supported by Chinese logistics, and outfitted with Soviet weaponry (for free or at cost).

Why would you want to put yourself in a similar situation whereby you are facing pakistani Jawans defending their homeland, quite possibly morally and logistically supported by the "Ummah", with cheap and abundant weapons from China?

Truthfully, you are better off (in terms of rallying support around the world) confronting the PRC directly ...

As a lay man, I see this Cold Start as worse than doing nothing. O well, what must come to pass, right?

 

[oceanx]

I think our policy is working fine. Keep the moral high ground.......BUT Know that covert ops should always be responded by covert ops. The success is visible as for the firts time in the last 20 years, Pakistan is realizing that it is so easy to destroy than to create. They are realizing that any ediot can blast himself at any place of his choice and this does not make them heroes or Indian forces cowards. While we defeated them in our Pujnab, only history will tell what will happen to Pakistan. We are in Afghanistan for this purpose.

While I do not want to see even a single pakistani citizen harmed or hurt, I too want the same for Indian citizens. Proxy war is low cost war. We should focus on our economic growth and in building our nation. China is our competition and not Pakistan. In another 10 years, all the issues with Pakistan will disappear...

Not entirely agreeable but more or less sensible. Pakistan is not entirely in control of her "assets" at the moment because of the virtual state of civil war.

That much is becoming clear.

Mumbai was possibly a sign of the beginning of that civil war - whoever were behind it.

What India needs is not unlimited patience, but unlimited forebearance.

Even better if India can keep an eye forward toward the resolution of Kashmir (that might be asking too much at the moment).

 

[faithfulguy]

Not entirely agreeable but more or less sensible. Pakistan is not entirely in control of her "assets" at the moment because of the virtual state of civil war.

That much is becoming clear.

Mumbai was possibly a sign of the beginning of that civil war - whoever were behind it.

What India needs is not unlimited patience, but unlimited forebearance.

Even better if India can keep an eye forward toward the resolution of Kashmir (that might be asking too much at the moment).

If India does not respond to the terrorist attacks. What make the terrorist think its not a good idea to do it again? You can only turn the other cheek so many times before its time to fight back.

The complexity of the issue at play shouldn't be a deterent. Do you think the US would get anything done if its overcome by the situation instead of overcoming the situation?

 

[oceanx]

If India does not respond to the terrorist attacks. What make the terrorist think its not a good idea to do it again? You can only turn the other cheek so many times before its time to fight back.

The complexity of the issue at play shouldn't be a deterent. ...

Does forebearance mean sitting around doing nothing looking pretty to you, Faithful? I will not get into an endless debate on semantics with you, for that seems to be a specialty of some.

All I am saying is, of all options that constitute a "response", a war involving tanks and fighter jets and troops pushing into Pakistan (or India for that matter) - "cold" or "warm start", 96 hours or 12 hours, should be off the table.

Realizing this is as much for Pakistan's good as it is for India's own good.

For everybody else involved and uninvolved, this is good.

You carry on with your semantic acrobatics if you wish, buddy.

Do you think the US would get anything done if its overcome by the situation instead of overcoming the situation?

People already made it amply clear in the posts above mine why the US is not the role model here. The point is not to ape the Uncle, but to take lessons from what Uncle achieves or fails to achieve ...

 

[karan.1970]

Mate by supporting TTP we are commiting the same mistake Pakistan has done and look at their current situation...

Friend

I assume you are saying IF WE SUPPORT TTP not that we are already supporting them.. Correct??

 

[faithfulguy]

Does forebearance mean sitting around doing nothing looking pretty to you, Faithful? I will not get into an endless debate on semantics with you, for that seems to be a specialty of some.

All I am saying is, of all options that constitute a "response", a war involving tanks and fighter jets and troops pushing into Pakistan (or India for that matter) - "cold" or "warm start", 96 hours or 12 hours, should be off the table.

Realizing this is as much for Pakistan's good as it is for India's own good.

For everybody else involved and uninvolved, this is good.

You carry on with your semantic acrobatics if you wish, buddy.

I'm not saying instigate a full scale war. It shoud send it surgical strike team to take out the leaders or attack with a cruise missile if its an area out of control of Pakistani force. The Indians talk so much about Brahmos. At least put it to good use and show that its not all just talk.

 

[Iggy]

Friend

I assume you are saying IF WE SUPPORT TTP not that we are already supporting them.. Correct??

Yes mate..sorry grammer mistake ..corrected ..thanks

 

[deckingraj]

Truthfully, you are better off (in terms of rallying support around the world) confronting the PRC directly ...

As a lay man, I see this Cold Start as worse than doing nothing. O well, what must come to pass, right?

I get what your overall point is....In fact i would hate to see cold start being implied...However the reality is come another mumbai GOI will have to do something about it no matter what....There is no choice...We have shown enough restraint and anyone who thinks India can pull out more is living in dillusions...We(public) won't let that happen...This is like Pak ignoring a surgical strike by India...Can you imagine that happening??? The problem is that no matter what(if there is a hidden civil war or not) Pak cannot free her from the compulsion of not letting her soil being used against India or her interests....This is like saying i cannot control these non-state actors but if you try to do anything against them you will compromise my sovereignity and i will blow you off...Did you see how crapy it sounds....Are't we sovereign??? No action by GOI would mean a political suicide and trust me that won't happen....


As far as support of PRC is concerned then i believe you need to read the cold start doctorine again....... An all out war would be only because of Pakistan response(which i suppose they would).. However even with logistic support from PRC Pak would be more on defensive than Offensive(i may be wrong here)...To best of my knowledge any future confrontation between India and Pak is not going to be a war of months.. They never have been in the past nor will they be in future...by then we India-Pak would be cooked by our prestegious nukes....As far as i know even if you give equipments for free we still can hold ground on our own and give a good decisive punch....Secondly China's support will not go unnoticed and who knows what GOI action would be...

 

[gpit]

Either put up or shut up!!!......

Eagerly waiting for your "source" for the 2MM murdered children.....

BTW.....Dont be surprised if the alarm rings and its all just a dream!!

Incredible! Still asking for source of a well-known fact? How incredibly myopic some of you are!

Speechless indeed, but to present the report:

Two million slum children die every year as India booms | World news | The Observer

Can you prove that 2MM children died as a result of the direct actions/orders of the Parliamentarians or were systematically eliminated by the armed forces of India?

Do you have an answer for the Millions slaughtered during the "cultural revolution" to bring communism to China?

And what does a threesome by an insignificant "state" politician have to do with the atrocities of murder that China's leaders were involved with?....How does that reflect the "criminal" attitude of Indian politicians?...Private lives of our politicians are non of your bloody beeswax.....Why not question the multiple flings by JFK or Clinton??....
Doesnt your country call these same leaders the greatest presidents of all time??

Please find some "dirt" other than our poverty, latrine situation and Caste system......

Tiananmen square was a deliberate act of aggression by a state on its on citizens. Unarmed students well killed with the sole purpose of suppressing pro-democracy voices.

On the other hand, death due to malnutrition etc. in India, is a policy and administrative failure. Of course it doesn't absolve GoI from its responsibilities, but only a cretin will call such failures as deliberate.

As with the septuagenarian's sexual escapades, well, if at 70+ you can do a manage a trois, do consider yourself blessed.

EDIT: Damn, Peshwa beat me to it.

Surely, everyone sees not only that. They also saw(and see) Tibet, also Xinxiang.....just because your CCTV says all is good, does not really mean that........

Re shot and gone: The protestors are goners for sure. Each very time. Also their women and their children.



I earlier doubted it but now I am sure. Either you are holding the map upside down or you have inverted vision (please refer to Indian Science textbook - CBSE syllabus - Standard 7th to see what that means).

You see, the red area where you think all the children are being murdered, that is not India or South Asia, that is in fact, your country and also your convenient Pet = North Korea. Either dying of China's one child policy or the "destroy all North Koreans" policy. Do you still want to do the maths on the Tianamen conversions??

Ever been to Macau?? Seen those party members from China stepping out of Bentleys in front of casinos with those teen somethings as old as their grand daughters, clinging on to their arms like cufflinks?? Go see that and you will start unravelling the Chinese mystery. I have.

Ever felt the helplessness of not being able to change these system generated, long lifed corrupt fascist examples of your masters? Learn to start asking the right questions, and the right answers will follow....

Do not bore me and come up with something that makes sense to me. Not just to your other Chinese and Pinoy?? fanboys.

Dude you seems like supporting terrorists in order to bash India?You mean to say that India should not take any action if terrorists killing our innocent civilians??You seems to be a qualified member for TTP or Al-Queda man.Those guys will love to have people like you..with such short mindedness and narrow brain..you will be a worthy addition to them.Some logic you got..

no chopping heads of our own species is something we'd rather not do...we might settle for these criminals staying put in their offices...after all only criminals can represent a criminal nation int it?
btw... and "or their head chopped off" dont gel...

Let me summarize above democracy apologists’ views as follows:

1) You killed millions, Tiananmen Square, blah, blah, … so why can’t we!
2) It is not direct action of GoI/parliament, so please let those children keep dying, millions a year.
3) Dude, those died are not killed by terrorists.
4) We’ll never chop off head of our own species, be they chopping off heads of others, and we’ll let them chopping others’ head, in millions a year…because those murders are our own species.

Thanks, guys, for your incredible input.

But no thanks!

No wonder rediff.com: India is the murder capital of the world

 

[Iggy]

Incredible! Still asking for source of a well-known fact? How incredibly myopic some of you are!

Speechless indeed, but to present the report:

Two million slum children die every year as India booms | World news | The Observer


Let me summarize above democracy apologists’ views as follows:

1) You killed millions, Tiananmen Square, blah, blah, … so why can’t we!
2) It is not direct action of GoI/parliament, so please let those children keep dying, millions a year.
3) Dude, those died are not killed by terrorists.
4) We’ll never chop off head of our own species, be they chopping off heads of others, and we’ll let them chopping others’ head, in millions a year…because those murders are our own species.

Thanks, guys, for your incredible input.

But no thanks!

No wonder rediff.com: India is the murder capital of the world

lolz i will give you my response others will give better response to you..I posting was a reply for your post

Why doesn't India patience run out sooner? The only answer is because GOI itself is a murderous terrorist!

Now tell me your country didnt have the patience against those innocent people who are protesting in a non violent way ..and you are accusing us of murderous terrorists??which government is more murderous terrorists the government who kills people who is protesting non violently or the government who took action against the scumbags who killed innocent civilians??

And also some of the links you gave us from Indian papers..its shows the freedom we have and the medias ready to show us the reality.care to show any links where your media criticising your government..I dont think so..after all they got families na.. Till media is controlled by the government you will not here what wrong in your country..you will only see colour ful pictures of new skyscrapers and bullet train and the wet dreams your government provide..enjoy it till it fades

 

[gpit]

lolz i will give you my response others will give better response to you..I posting was a reply for your post



Now tell me your country didnt have the patience against those innocent people who are protesting in a non violent way ..and you are accusing us of murderous terrorists??which government is more murderous terrorists the government who kills people who is protesting non violently or the government who took action against the scumbags who killed innocent civilians??

And also some of the links you gave us from Indian papers..its shows the freedom we have and the medias ready to show us the reality.care to show any links where your media criticising your government..I dont think so..after all they got families na.. Till media is controlled by the government you will not here what wrong in your country..you will only see colour ful pictures of new skyscrapers and bullet train and the wet dreams your government provide..enjoy it till it fades

I hear you again, friend, your points:

You killed hundreds in Tiananmen Square violently 20+ years ago in one transaction and we kill only millions peacefully, continuously and annually. You are more murderous than us.

And the links are from India, so we are less murderous by peacefully killing 2,000,000 children continuously and annually. And you don’t have link from china of killing hundreds 20+ years ago in one time transaction. You are more murderous.



Again, thanks for your wonderful inputs. But no thanks for your funny logic.

BTW, it is UK media that reveal the cruelty in India first, not your Indian media that are very professional in uttering bellicose rhetoric.

 

[Iggy]

I hear you again, friend, your points:

You killed hundreds in Tiananmen Square violently 20+ years ago in one transaction and we kill only millions peacefully, continuously and annually. You are more murderous than us.

And the links are from India, so we are less murderous by peacefully killing 2,000,000 children continuously and annually. And you don’t have link from china of killing hundreds 20+ years ago in one time transaction. You are more murderous.



Again, thanks for your wonderful inputs. But no thanks for your funny logic.

BTW, it is UK media that reveal the cruelty in India first, not your Indian media that are very professional in uttering bellicose rhetoric.

You having problem grasping things here right?I said we know the ground reality you can check our media for it..Infact most of the trolling here about India is came from Indian media itself...Its you and your countrymen who is living in a dream world about the wonderful country you have..Your country dont even allow to have an independent media reports then how you will know the truth??Keep on living in the fancy land your govt provided till the knock of reality bang on your head once day...Then we will know how many people were killed annually and monthly basis in your country ...

 

[Peshwa]

I hear you again, friend, your points:

You killed hundreds in Tiananmen Square violently 20+ years ago in one transaction and we kill only millions peacefully, continuously and annually. You are more murderous than us.

And the links are from India, so we are less murderous by peacefully killing 2,000,000 children continuously and annually. And you don’t have link from china of killing hundreds 20+ years ago in one time transaction. You are more murderous.



Again, thanks for your wonderful inputs. But no thanks for your funny logic.
BTW, it is UK media that reveal the cruelty in India first, not your Indian media that are very professional in uttering bellicose rhetoric.

By Your logic

The atrocities committed by the Nazi's of killing over 6MM jews is the same as people dying of malnutrition and disease in Africa.....

I think you first need to learn the meaning of logic....then try to use and teach other people about the word you can hardly comprehend.....


Go spin your hate elsewhere.....
Unless you're thick and cant understand the question being posed.....
Where in the article you presented does it imply that "India/Indian Govt systematically murdered 2MM children".....

For the simple minded folks:
Definition of Murder-
The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

murder - definition of murder by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

If you can prove murder other than to spin an agenda do so otherwise please stop wasting bandwidth.....

PS: From the source presented......

"The Save the Children report says nearly nine million children die worldwide every year before the age of five. India has the highest number of deaths, with China fifth."

Looks like the "peaceful" Nazi's of the east are also murderers like the rest of the Indians....


I hate that I presented the above to try to save face for India.....and I apologize.....I am ashamed of my country's leaders for not being able to serve their citizens.....
But some shameless people have to be taught in kind.......