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India's Nuclear Agreement

A hypothetical question just out of curiosity. What if India decides to test another nuke to collect new data and Pakistan follows suit. Will there be sanctions for both or just Pakistan??

1.Both, but India will have a stock of nuclear fuel enough for the lifetime of every reactor that it bought-which would be significant in number.

2. The next part is that even though US might put sanctions on India, and Pakistan, India can still continue to trade with ANY NSG nation that wants to trade with us. In short, only the US and its allies would stop trading in nuclear technology with us, legally speaking, Russia or France or any other nation can still continue to trade with us if they want. So it shouldnt really hurt that much.

The second condition comes true, IF the NSG waiver is clean and unconditional. And the draft US has proposed is just that. I hope it passes.
 
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Thanks IPF, I'm aware of the current status of Thorium based nuclear technology, Joey and I discussed it in lenghts and it indeed it won't become viable in atleast another two decades.

I agree with Malay though, the experimental FBR will go critical in few years, you can't speed up the research but you can certainly extend the infrastructure and pour in more funds for better and faster results.

Yes, we can construct many more FBR's which makes research much faster in the long run.
 
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Abject surrender


By Tariq Fatemi

PAKISTAN’S diplomacy has historically been imbued with imagination and initiative. Recently, however, there was an occasion when our effort to engage in a salvage operation was stopped virtually in midstream.

Its origins go back to the July 2005 George Bush-Manmohan Singh joint statement that carried the US commitment to provide civilian nuclear technology to India. Bush had then stated that his administration would not only “adjust US laws and policies”, but also “work with friends and allies to adjust international regimes to enable full nuclear energy cooperation and trade with India”.

A year later, the US Congress passed the Henry Hyde US-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Act of 2006, which Bush signed into law on Dec 18, 2006. Thereafter on July 27, 2007, India and the US reached a consensus on the text of a nuclear cooperation agreement, prompting Bush to reiterate the US desire to base relations with India on “a strategic vision that transcends even today’s most pressing security concerns”. However, for this agreement to be put into operation, India and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) needed to agree on a Safeguards Agreement.

This high-stake game moved recently to Vienna where the IAEA Board of Governors was hustled into approving, by consensus, the draft of the Safeguards Agreement that contained procedural errors as well as critical exceptions and concessions that other IAEA agreements did not contain.

For example, it does not, unlike accepted IAEA format, use the word “in perpetuity” with reference to the safeguards, which can only be taken as indicative of India’s desire to keep open the possibility of reneging on the agreement. It also has a provision that permits India to take “corrective measures to ensure the uninterrupted operation of its civilian nuclear reactors in the event of disruption of foreign fuel supplies”.

Since such a disruption can happen only if India resumes nuclear testing, this loophole will stop the IAEA from preventing the diversion of materials from civilian safeguarded reactors to military purposes. Nor does the agreement include a list of facilities to be safeguarded. Instead, India has been permitted to volunteer which of its facilities will be placed under safeguards and when. This has led some to describe it as an “empty shell” agreement.

Earlier, when US largesse to India had caused deep concern to American advocates of non-proliferation as well as our national security experts, the last government had chosen to adopt an attitude that revealed both ignorance and apathy.

Admittedly, our demand for a similar facility would have been brushed aside, given the bitter memories of Kargil and allegations of proliferation misdemeanours. Nevertheless, our refusal to immediately react to the Indo-US deal was deeply disappointing to most Pakistanis.

The restoration of a democratic government had renewed hopes that Pakistan would finally wake up to the grave implications of the Indo-US deal and initiate a vigorous diplomatic campaign on two tracks. One, bilaterally with Washington to press for a criteria-based approach, while seeking its assistance in harnessing alternative sources of energy. Two, by sensitising friendly capitals on this issue and seeking their support to delay, if not deny, passage of the Safeguards Agreement.

In mid-July, a half-hearted effort was finally launched by the Foreign Office, when our permanent representative in Vienna, wrote to the Board of Governors (BOG), as well as member states of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), pointing out the procedural errors as well as substantive concessions contained in the Safeguards Agreement.

By endorsing India’s refusal to place its breeder reactors and thorium-based programme under safeguards, the agreement recognises India’s three-phased nuclear programme, which amounts to gratuitous legitimisation of potential nuclear proliferation that was contrary to IAEA objectives.

The letter also stressed that the IAEA statute does not provide for differentiation between member states on the basis of political consideration, nor did it allow for special treatment for a particular state.

Calling it an India-specific agreement was therefore wrong but any safeguards agreement adopted by the BOG in respect of India should be available as a model for other non-NPT states. The foreign ministry also decided to send a special envoy to China, to obtain its support for our approach.

In response, the Bush administration launched its own campaign to dissuade Pakistan from any effort to thwart the Indo-US game plan. In doing so, it also claimed that the previous government had already given its commitment not to oppose the unprecedented concessions given to India.

Our ambassador in Washington, too, according to well-informed sources, pitched in, recommending that we do nothing to upset the Bush administration’s advice and, instead, terminate all efforts to counter the Indo-US move, at both the IAEA and the NSG, which is to meet to consider the US draft to allow nuclear trade with India. To the Foreign Office’s disappointment, the entire campaign was called off, causing deep dismay at this abject surrender of national interests.

The Indo-US nuclear deal should not be seen merely as a commercial arrangement. Thanks to this deal, India will obtain full access to nuclear technology, while the global ban on civil nuclear cooperation with Pakistan will remain intact. India will also stand admitted to the exclusive club of nuclear weapon states, while Pakistan’s nuclear programme will continue to draw international concern and opprobrium.

Moreover, the manner in which the deal was concluded is reflective of the common desire of New Delhi and Washington to bring about a qualitative change in their bilateral ties, making it truly strategic. This is evident from the manner in which the Bush administration was willing to employ its heavy guns to silence critics, while convincing others that the benefits of a strategic partnership with India far outweighed US commitments (both domestic and international) to non-proliferation.

On the Indian side too, Manmohan Singh was so determined to consummate the ‘deal’ that he was willing to risk a parliamentary vote of non-confidence, in favour of a policy that represents India’s abandonment of the half-a-century old Nehruvian policy of not identifying with any one superpower.

No wonder, the then US Under Secretary of State Nick Burns had asserted: “This is a unique agreement, for a unique country”. But it is our own behaviour that demonstrates the distance travelled since Bhutto refused to buckle under US pressure to abandon the reprocessing plant and Mian Sahib, notwithstanding the combined threats and blandishments of Clinton and Blair, refused to surrender Pakistan’s sovereign right to carry out nuclear tests, in response to those of India.

DAWN - Editorial; August 14, 2008
 
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Its not something that was just offered out of thin air mate. Its not as if that US is offering us this as a gift, and it could have been Pakistan instead.
No, it could never be Pakistan. Only country to open doors to Pakistan would be China, with concession from France. Even then strong anti Pakistan Jewish and Indian lobby would try to hamper the deal.

Its that we are short on energy, and we have the money to buy plenty of reactors. US companies are set to gain from this commercial transactions -in billions not millions of dollars. If Pakistan had the market and and the money on an equivalent scale, they would have gotten a nuclear deal too.
I see the money's got into your head too mate, no offence, but having a trillion dollar economy (and that too since 2007 only) doesn't put you in the league of rich countries. Pakistan may be 1/8th in the size, we're still second largest economy in the region...if India is Japan, Pakistan will be South Korea.

Don't talk of Pakistan as if it can't afford anything. We have the market and the money and above all the willpower to maintain regional balance and we will succeed! :pakistan:
 
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1.Both, but India will have a stock of nuclear fuel enough for the lifetime of every reactor that it bought-which would be significant in number.
So does Pakistan, as a matter of fact we can afford to fuel another eight 500MW reactors with Uranium coming from Dera Ghazi Khan and Khel mines. There are other untabbed reserves in Sindh and Punjab.

2. The next part is that even though US might put sanctions on India, and Pakistan, India can still continue to trade with ANY NSG nation that wants to trade with us. In short, only the US and its allies would stop trading in nuclear technology with us, legally speaking, Russia or France or any other nation can still continue to trade with us if they want. So it shouldnt really hurt that much.

The second condition comes true, IF the NSG waiver is clean and unconditional. And the draft US has proposed is just that. I hope it passes.
It would be the end of NPT, NSG members supplying fuel to India will lose all credibility and the world may not accept nor support sanctions for Pakistan with fuel coming to India.
 
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No, it could never be Pakistan. Only country to open doors to Pakistan would be China, with concession from France. Even then strong anti Pakistan Jewish and Indian lobby would try to hamper the deal.
I cant predict all that mate. But even this deal can be stopped dead in its tracks with just 1 member of the NSG saying 'No'. NSG works on consensus, even if one member doesnt agree with the deal, it doesnt go through.

I see the money's got into your head too mate, no offence, but having a trillion dollar economy (and that too since 2007 only) doesn't put you in the league of rich countries. Pakistan may be 1/8th in the size, we're still second largest economy in the region...if India is Japan, Pakistan will be South Korea.
When i say money, i mean demand, i mean the market. There is a far bigger market in India, i dont mean buying capacity or reserves. Undoubtedly Pakistan is the second largest economy in the region and is growing as well.

Don't talk of Pakistan as if it can't afford anything. We have the market and the money and above all the willpower to maintain regional balance and we will succeed! :pakistan:
Wish you the best in that endeavor mate. I reiterate that i am not talking about buying capacity but the size of the market. It is this coupled with the huge defence market that has prompted the US to negotiate the deal with India.
 
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So does Pakistan, as a matter of fact we can afford to fuel another eight 500MW reactors with Uranium coming from Dera Ghazi Khan and Khel mines. There are other untabbed reserves in Sindh and Punjab.
Thats good news for Pakistan. However India is short on Uranium and India hasnt really tapped/mined its existing resources well. Buying Uranium frees Indian reserves for our experimental and military reactors.

It would be the end of NPT, NSG members supplying fuel to India will lose all credibility and the world may not accept nor support sanctions for Pakistan with fuel coming to India.
That maybe true. I have no idea on that mate. We are getting ahead of ourselves.
 
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No, it could never be Pakistan. Only country to open doors to Pakistan would be China, with concession from France. Even then strong anti Pakistan Jewish and Indian lobby would try to hamper the deal.

I read various post regarding the possible PAk-china nuke deal similar to indo-us nuke deal.....and i found that most of the pakistani members are very optimistic about it but Do you really belive china can offer you the deal??? considering the fact that it will surly going to be rejected in IAEA or NSG by the US lobby. Do you think china would take that kind of risk?? Cuz it will be really embarassing for china to put forward a deal in IAEA and NSG backed by herself only going to be rejected. whats your opinion on that NEO??
 
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VIENNA, Aug 14: The United States has proposed to waive a ban on nuclear trade with India without conditions, such as compliance with a nuclear test ban or UN inspections, but diplomats said on Thursday the draft was unlikely to pass.

The draft, circulated among members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) and unveiled late on Wednesday by an arms control advocacy, will be discussed by the NSG next week in Vienna.

A green light by the 45-nation NSG, which operates by consensus, is necessary for the 2005 US-India deal on nuclear trade to proceed to US Congress for final ratification.

It would lift a 34-year embargo on nuclear trade for civilian purposes with the Asian nuclear power, which has not signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has tested atomic bombs.

But diplomats from several NSG member states said the draft fell behind earlier US proposals, had unacceptable clauses and omissions, and went against existing American laws on the deal. A diplomat, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said: “There are no conditions. Obviously what is missing is that (the waiver) is void if there is another atomic test.”

A second diplomat said: “I think a majority of countries feel that the current draft is very weak and there is no conditionality at all... I don’t really think that the US expects this draft to pass.”

If the waiver does not get NSG approval next week or at a second meeting likely early next month, it may not get ratified by the end of September, when US Congress adjourns for November elections, and could face indefinite limbo.

The draft was published by the US-based Arms Control Association (Arms Control Association | The authoritative source on arms control since 1971.) late on Wednesday. A spokeswoman for the US mission in Vienna declined to comment.

A senior Indian foreign ministry official said they were happy with the draft. “We are hopeful the deal will make it to US Congress by Sept 8,” the official said.

Several NSG nations are unlikely to approve an exemption unless it makes clear certain events — such as India testing a nuclear bomb or not allowing inspections at its nuclear facilities — would trigger a review.

Such demands are also stipulated in US legislation regarding the US-India deal — known as the Hyde Act — which requires permanent, unconditional inspections in India and says trade must stop if it tests another atom bomb.

A powerful congressional leader wrote to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice last week saying if the waiver does not spell out such minimum conditions, the Bush administration should not bother seeking NSG approval before it leaves office in January.But the draft states only that NSG members “have taken note of steps that India has taken voluntarily”, including its unilateral moratorium on nuclear tests and its commitment to allow inspections by the UN nuclear watchdog. It mentions no consequences in case India does not adhere to the measures.—Reuters


There will never be a better time for India and US to get closer. The ruling coalition party led by congress is very serious for the deal and they can make it happen within next few months. Any type of delay in Indo-US deal will delay it for atleast 8-10 years and the new Nuke deal between India and other nuke powers will be done in a new changed world structure with new demands. And if we don’t make good effort to make the deal done at present, we all will be responsible to make the world atleast 8-10 years backword.
 
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There will never be a better time for India and US to get closer. The ruling coalition party led by congress is very serious for the deal and they can make it happen within next few months. Any type of delay in Indo-US deal will delay it for atleast 8-10 years and the new Nuke deal between India and other nuke powers will be done in a new changed world structure with new demands. And if we don’t make good effort to make the deal done at present, we all will be responsible to make the world atleast 8-10 years backword.

Sunny what I think is that any way with in one week we will come to know the result. Till that time wait and watch. If this clears the hurdle in NSG then there should not be much of problem. But till that time enjoy :cheers:

If the deal doesn't goes through nothing much to worry.
 
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TOKYO: Japanese and Australian politicians said Monday that a new nuclear body would meet for the first time in October and discuss a controversial India-US atomic energy pact.

Former Japanese and Australian foreign ministers Yoriko Kawaguchi and Gareth Evans are co-chairs of the new body, which Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd proposed earlier this year to bolster anti-nuclear efforts. “It is extremely important for Japan, the only victim of nuclear attacks, to aim to build a world without nuclear weapons,” Kawaguchi told a joint news conference with Evans after they met Japanese Prime Minister Yasuo Fukuda.

The International Commission on Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Disarmament will gather up to 16 members from around the world. It hopes to lay the groundwork for the next review conference of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 2010. Kawaguchi said the group would first meet in October, although she declined to name the exact date, location or the membership.

The commission will discuss “issues of what to do with countries that are developing nuclear programmes while violating the Non-Proliferation Treaty or who are not members of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty,” she said. She was referring to India, which is seeking international approval for a nuclear technology sharing deal with the United while refusing to sign the non-proliferation and test-ban treaties.

Evans said the India-US deal was “very controversial,” having positive and negative aspects. “We’re all going to have to work harder if we really do want a global regime that is very strong, that picks up all the best of the NPT and makes it even stronger and applicable universally,” Evans said. Rudd has said Australia, which has the largest known uranium reserves, and Japan, a major nuclear energy power, could play a role in non-proliferation. Both countries have signalled support for the India-US deal, despite earlier reservations.
 
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There chance of success looks dim, the deal seems to be dead
 
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N-deal with India to conclude by early September: US


As India and the US started redrafting the text of NSG waiver, Washington has said it is working in a focussed manner to push the process with the aim of concluding the civil nuclear deal by early next month.

"Our principal focus right now has been on the India civil nuclear deal, having worked through the IAEA, now working through the NSG, and still trying to get into a position to make the appropriate Presidential determinations in early September," US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice told reporters on way to Tel Aviv.

She was responding when asked whether developments in Georgia will affect the US-Russia civilian nuclear deal.

Clearance from the 45-nation is a key step in the implementation of the Indo-US civil nuclear deal after which it has to be subjected to a final vote in the US Congress, which will be meeting on September 8 for the last session during the Bush administration.

The comments by Rice came as Foreign Secretary Shivshankar Menon met US Under Secretary of State William Burns here to discuss issues related to redrafting of the text of the waiver which is to be presented before the NSG at its next meeting in Vienna on September 4-5.

Menon and Burns are understood to have discussed how to strike a balance in the draft so that it addresses the apprehensions of the sceptic NSG members without any "conditions" being attached to it.

The Foreign Secretary also met US Acting National Security Adviser James Jeffrey during which the same issue was discussed.
 
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