India’s bullet train on the slow track

[Donatello]

You cant compare Metro and this train...... You need to keep it significantly lower than air fare to attract passengers, and wonder how is it gonna be viable.....

You need to visit Europe and see what High Speed trains are all about.

It's about saving time for those who need it. In India, You can still have slower trains, since the high speed ones can't run on the existing infrastructure anyway, and then new high speed railways has to be electric. No diesels.

The thing is, in Europe, trains crisscross national boundaries like nothing, running on time and since each train station is right in the center of the city, it saves the commuters the hassle of travelling to the airports outside the city and going through that stupid security mess.
That is why a Eurostar fare for would be more expensive that flying on the low cost airline carriers.

So if India sees that a particular line would have enough high net worth passengers who can afford the more expensive high speed trains, then so be it. But i am not sure if it would be Ahmadabad-Mumbai link.....that is more to do with Modi's personal choice of his home state.

They should start a Delhi-Mumbai high speed link and see how that goes, since your most affluent passengers willing to travel will come from there.

So yes, trains can actually be more expensive than flying. and more efficient at transporting 500+ passengers, especially as airports face congestions, weather ailments etc.

 

[AugenBlick]

You need to visit Europe and see what High Speed trains are all about.

It's about saving time for those who need it. In India, You can still have slower trains, since the high speed ones can't run on the existing infrastructure anyway, and then new high speed railways has to be electric. No diesels.

The thing is, in Europe, trains crisscross national boundaries like nothing, running on time and since each train station is right in the center of the city, it saves the commuters the hassle of travelling to the airports outside the city and going through that stupid security mess.
That is why a Eurostar fare for would be more expensive that flying on the low cost airline carriers.

So if India sees that a particular line would have enough high net worth passengers who can afford the more expensive high speed trains, then so be it. But i am not sure if it would be Ahmadabad-Mumbai link.....that is more to do with Modi's personal choice of his home state.

They should start a Delhi-Mumbai high speed link and see how that goes, since your most affluent passengers willing to travel will come from there.

So yes, trains can actually be more expensive than flying. and more efficient at transporting 500+ passengers, especially as airports face congestions, weather ailments etc.

Agree 100% the time and productivity gains are unmistakable ... words missing from indian consciousness ... I feel indians must check out these trains in Europe themselves

I am not talking about politics.
In 1910 with steam engine they make record of 175 km/hr & in 2015 with diesel engine our bhopal shatabdi fastest speed is 160 km/hr for barely 30 minute.
One we didn't have fund to upgrade current railway infrastructure which indicated by budget other hand we are scouting for bullet train which could only take market from 0.1% of population which can taken care by Airways.

All the more reason. How much longer will India always be behind.... We can't always be catching up.

 

[Manindra]

Nope. Since Bullet train is a new separate authority , they start from a blank slate as they will be autonomous and not under direct political control.

I am not talking about politics.
In 1910 with steam engine they make record of 175 km/hr & in 2015 with diesel engine our bhopal shatabdi fastest speed is 160 km/hr for barely 30 minute.
One we didn't have fund to upgrade current railway infrastructure which indicated by budget other hand we are scouting for bullet train which could only take market from 0.1% of population which can taken care by Airways.

Agree 100% the time and productivity gains are unmistakable ... words missing from indian consciousness ... I feel indians must check out these trains in Europe themselves


All the more reason. How much longer will India always be behind.... We can't always be catching up.

India would be always behind if 0.5% of its rail network clocks 350 km/hr & rest one 35 km/hr.

 

[AugenBlick]

.

India would be always behind if 0.5% of its rail network clocks 350 km/hr & rest one 35 km/hr.

bro now you are debating like pakistanis.
are you from WB/kerla/ts?

 

[Manindra]

bro now you are debating like pakistanis.
are you from WB/kerla/ts?

No bro, and for psedo socialism & communism I would rather kill myself.
You are supporting it because NaMo is doing as economic background it would be not helpfull for India.
Some supporters are saying that with bullet train our economy can add 0.5% extra growth but they are forgetting that with same money by upgrading Railway's current infrastructure & building new we can add 2% more growth.

 

[AugenBlick]

No bro, and for psedo socialism & communism I would rather kill myself.
You are supporting it because NaMo is doing as economic background it would be not helpfull for India.
Some supporters are saying that with bullet train our economy can add 0.5% extra growth but they are forgetting that with same money by upgrading Railway's current infrastructure & building new we can add 2% more growth.

Nope.. I have traveled in european trains. Believe me, in India , we have no trains, only bullock carts on rails.
Even the so called "semi bullet" trains are only useful for small distances.
And both up gradation are not exclusive.

 

[Skull and Bones]

There is no apparent need of Bullet train as of now, upgrade the existing tracks for 200kmph HSR.

 

[AugenBlick]

There is no apparent need of Bullet train as of now, upgrade the existing tracks for 200kmph HSR.

Thats not:
a)200 kmph.
b) HSR
Side note here is a comparison

Shinkansen
@Manindra No cost comparison with airplanes. Less energy only fixed costs are more.

 

[Manindra]

Nope.. I have traveled in european trains. Believe me, in India , we have no trains, only bullock carts on rails.
Even the so called "semi bullet" trains are only useful for small distances.
And both up gradation are not exclusive.

160 KM/HR would not called semi bullet train, it should called 'Quarter Bullet Train'

 

[Dr. Sen]

I would be more happy if they double the average train speed, electrify 70% of line, all single vline converted in double line, & all couched would be fitted with discharge free toilet in 5 years.

Plus we need to upgrade all trains to LHB wagons and premium trains to Anubhuti wagons.

Also I would like to add, we dont need bullet trains. Between cities flights are much faster and cheaper. Our railways is for rural connevtions, which for India is massive and even bullet trains cant stop every 15 minutes. So bullet trains compared with flights for city to city connections, flights win. Better to make more airports to connect tier 2 and 3 cities.

 

[AugenBlick]

NEW DELHI: Even as skeptics doubt success of Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s pet bullet train project in India, a study by IIMA doctorate Ramakrishnan TS, who Thursday made presentation before the Railway Board, has said that not only it will be a successful project but by 2035 from one in every two person travelling between Mumbai-Ahmadabad would travel by the bullet train. This is proposed to be the first sector to get High Speed Rail (HSR) in India.

The study said bullet train, if operationalised by 2025, would attract 4.8 crore end to end passengers (from Ahmedabad to Mumbai and vice versa) in the first year of operation itself. It said that 4.8 crore passengers would be equivalent to about 24 percent of the total passenger traffic in the Ahmedabad-Mumbai corridor.

The study, ‘Modal shift estimation and financial viability of High Speed Rail (HSR) in India: the case study of Ahmedabad – Mumbai corridor’ was done by Ramakrishnan TS of IIMA.

“The passengers for HSR would grow further to 9.7 crore and 17 crore in 2030 and 2035 respectively, which would be about 37 percent and 48 percent of the total passenger traffic in Ahmedabad-Mumbai corridor in 2030 and 2035 respectively. By 2035, for every two persons travelling on the Ahmedabad-Mumbai corridor, one would be travelling by HSR,” the study revealed.

The study also said that for the estimated ridership, the breakeven would be achieved within a decade of first year of operation making it an attractive proposition for private sector participation in the development of bullet train.

Development of bullet trains is a pet project of Prime Minister Narendra Modi and efforts are on to fasten its development. However, the project has been under criticism from several quarters. As per estimates, the 534 kilometre long HSR corridor between Mumbai and Ahmadabad would cost at least around Rs 60,000 crore and sceptics feel this money instead should be used for plugging present problems in the Indian railways.

As per experts, HSR is an appropriate solution for intercity travel, especially when the volumes of traffic are stupendous. For the thesis, Ramakrishnan used passenger traffic in Ahmedabad – Mumbai corridor by common transport modes like rail, bus and air.

Although most of the HSR lines in the world were constructed on standard gauge, the study recommends that the HSR line should be constructed in broad gauge in India in order to ensure seamless operation between HSR and conventional train systems.

An amount of Rs 100 crore was allocated in the budget for having a Diamond Quadrilateral Network of High Speed Rail, connecting major metros and growth centers of the country with bullet trains. The ministry has already completed a feasibility study on the already identified Mumbai-Ahmedabad sector and another is awaited.

Ramakrishnan analysed the passenger traffic in rail, bus and air modes in the Ahmedabad – Mumbai corridor. It was analysed in terms of train-wise, bus-wise, air-wise travel cost, departure and arrival time, capacity and actual passengers travelled.

He also incorporated additional travel related aspects like time, total travel time into production hours and non-production hours in order to distinguish night travel with day travel, penalty associated with access, in-vehicle and egress travel, and income levels of passengers for the study.
One in Every Two People to Take Bullet Train by 2035, Says Research -The New Indian Express

 

[AndrewJin]

A lot of conservatives here sound like Japanese before 1960s and Chinese before 2010s.
"No, it's for the rich. No, we don't need it, just improve the old lines."

Does anyone here really know HSR? One of the reasons China designs 50,000km network (now 16,000km in operation) is that passenger-dedicated lines will set free old lines. In other words, there will be more room for freight. But later, we find that it will not only give room to freight trains, but considerably stimulate local economy, increase connectivity, boost productivity, provide jobs, promote tourism, etc. There are a lot of positive reports from World Bank and World Bank has financially supported Chinese HSR.

Secondly, this mode of travel would be as expensive as traveling by air. It would be for the rich and famous. Not for the ordinary mortal. I think it's a waste of resources, time and money. It should be put on hold till such time our per capita income goes up at least three times. Otherwise its a lemon!

In China, traveling by HSR is cheaper than even by air with discounted air tickets for most cases(less than 1500km). Ordinary people travel by HSR in second class, rich people travel by HSR in first class and very rich in business class. In some corridor like Shanghai-Nanjing and Guangzhou-Shenzhen, there are at least 170-180 pairs of bullet trains daily.

I just give you some numbers of train services in my hometown(Wuhan City, Central China). Airlines have canceled most services from Wuhan to Guangzhou/Shanghai due to HSR's punctuality, convenience, cosiness and lower ticket fare.

Wuhan-Guangzhou(300kph) 60-70 trains daily, 463.5yuan (4766rupees), 3.5-4.5 hours/1100km
(same route by air, lowest 80% off at 450yuan and 50yuan fuel surcharge)

Wuhan-Shanghai(200-250kph) 25-35 trains daily, 257yuan (2642rupees) 5-6hours/850km (semi-HSR)
(same route by air, lowest 80% off at 300yuan and 50yuan fuel surcharge)

Wuhan-Yichang(200kph) 55-64 trains daily, 84.5yuan (868rupees) 2hours/300km (semi-HSR)
(same route by bus, 150yuan/4hours)

Please mind that good discounted tickets are in the worst time like early morning and late at night, and you cannot expect good discounts on holidays. But HSR ticket fares are the same throughout the year.

As I said ... its gonna be ready in 2025 after a decade of high growth...so many rich people esp. on the Mumbai Ahmadabad route.
It's gonna be separate from railways so better management.
And people will pay more as long as they feel that time is saved between Checkin/Checkout , security check etc. The one at bombay will stop at BKC, thats a commercial district. Imagine getting down at abombay and within half an hour beginning work.

Totally agree.
Imagine, buy a cup of latte at Starbucks in the waiting room of a railway station. Check emails or have a short snap in the smooth bullet train.

Ordinary people choose second class.

Really have huge money? No worries, choose business class.

even bullet trains cant stop every 15 minutes.

Nonsense!!!

upgrade the existing tracks for 200kmph HSR.

Upgrading old lines to 200kph as in China's Campaign to raise the speed of railway travel in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia before 2007.
To upgrade old lines, it's quite often even much pricer than building new lines.
1, upgrade railway crossings to flyovers
2, upgrade signal systems
3, seamless tracks
4, new locomotives
5, upgrade electric system
6, demolish buildings along railway which are too closed
7, build fences to protect people
8, more space between two opposite tracks
9, more tunnels and bridges
10, larger turning radius
11, stronger ballast
etc
It's no easy task.

And now we still have a lot of bullet trains operating on old upgraded lines(200kph) but the number is on the decline(influenced by freight trains)
Grey lines in the following map are upgrade old lines.

So bullet trains compared with flights for city to city connections, flights win. Better to make more airports to connect tier 2 and 3 cities.

No, air transportation has lost in Tokyo-Osaka, Beijing-Shanghai, Wuhan-Guangzhou, Wuhan-Beijing, etc. All these 1000km corridor, airlines offer at least 50%-80% discount, but they still lose.

You cannot build airports every 30-50km, but u can build HSR stations every 5-50km. Air transport is a rather selfish transport method, mainly for big cities, but bullet trains benefit every single city along an HSR line. We have small HSR stations in counties and towns.
A county-level HSR station in a remote mountainous region of Hubei Province

pls read the number(km) carefully in the following photo(Shanghai/Nanjing/Hangzhou HSR Network, 2014)
Yangtze River Delta HSR Network

I am a railway fan and a genuine promotor of HSR, not just in China but around the world,
I hate when people oppose development in railway when they know nothing true about it but talk like they are the experts. History already proves, those people won't be remembered.

There will be a change of thinking. Most Chinese before 2010s were against-HSR. But now, read the news, The modern railway protection movement of China Few Chinese resort back to uncomfortable, unpunctual economy class of airlines once they experience even second class of Chinese HSR. I personally haven't taken any domestic flights except distance more than 2000km or to cities without HSR connection.

 

[AugenBlick]

A lot of conservatives here sound like Japanese before 1960s and Chinese before 2010s.
"No, it's for the rich. No, we don't need it, just improve the old lines."

Does anyone here really know HSR? One of the reasons China designs 50,000km network (now 16,000km in operation) is that passenger-dedicated lines will set free old lines. In other words, there will be more room for freight. But later, we find that it will not only give room to freight trains, but considerably stimulate local economy, increase connectivity, boost productivity, provide jobs, promote tourism, etc. There are a lot of positive reports from World Bank and World Bank has financially supported Chinese HSR.


In China, traveling by HSR is cheaper than even by air with discounted air tickets for most cases(less than 1500km). Ordinary people travel by HSR in second class, rich people travel by HSR in first class and business class. In some corridor like Shanghai-Nanjing and Guangzhou-Shenzhen, there are at least 170-180 pairs of bullet trains daily.

I just give you some numbers of train services in my hometown(Wuhan City, Central China). Airlines have canceled most services from Wuhan to Guangzhou/Shanghai due to HSR's punctuality, convenience, cosiness and lower ticket fare.

Wuhan-Guangzhou(300kph) 60-70 trains daily, 463.5yuan (4766rupees), 3.5-4.5 hours/1100km
(same route by air, lowest 80% off at 450yuan and 50yuan fuel surcharge)

Wuhan-Shanghai(200-250kph) 25-35 trains daily, 257yuan (2642rupees) 5-6hours/850km (semi-HSR)
(same route by air, lowest 80% off at 300yuan and 50yuan fuel surcharge)

Wuhan-Yichang(200kph) 55-64 trains daily, 84.5yuan (868rupees) 2hours/300km (semi-HSR)
(same route by bus, 150yuan/4hours)

Please mind that good discounted tickets are in the worst time like early morning and late at night, and you cannot expect good discounts on holidays. But HSR ticket fares are the same throughout the year.


Totally agree.
Imagine, buy a cup of latte at Starbucks in the waiting room of a railway station. Check emails or have a short snap in the smooth bullet train.
View attachment 226010 View attachment 226008 View attachment 226009
Ordinary people choose second class.

Really have huge money? No worries, choose business class.
View attachment 226012


Nonsense!!!
View attachment 226013 View attachment 226014


Upgrading old lines to 200kph as in China's Campaign to raise the speed of railway travel in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia before 2007.
To upgrade old lines, it's quite often even much pricer than building new lines.
1, upgrade railway crossings to flyovers
2, upgrade signal systems
3, seamless tracks
4, new locomotives
5, upgrade electric system
6, demolish buildings along railway which are too closed
7, build fences to protect people
8, more space between two opposite tracks
9, more tunnels and bridges
10, larger turning radius
11, stronger ballast
etc
It's no easy task.

And now we still have a lot of bullet trains operating on old upgraded lines(200kph) but the number is on the decline(influenced by freight trains)
Grey lines in the following map are upgrade old lines.
View attachment 226015


No, air transportation has lost in Tokyo-Osaka, Beijing-Shanghai, Wuhan-Guangzhou, Wuhan-Beijing, etc. All these 1000km corridor, airlines offer at least 50%-80% discount, but they still lose.

You cannot build airports every 30-50km, but u can build HSR stations every 5-50km. Air transport is a rather selfish transport method, mainly for big cities, but bullet trains benefit every single city along an HSR line. We have small HSR stations in counties and towns.

pls read the number(km) carefully in the following photo(Shanghai/Nanjing/Hangzhou HSR Network, 2014)
Yangtze River Delta HSR Network
View attachment 226024

I am a railway fan and a genuine promotor of HSR, not just in China but around the world,
I hate when people oppose development in railway when they know nothing true about it but talk like they are the experts. History already proves, those people won't be remembered.

There will be a change of thinking. Most Chinese before 2010s were against-HSR. But now, read the news, The modern railway protection movement of China Few Chinese resort back to uncomfortable, unpunctual economy class of airlines once they experience even second class of Chinese HSR. I personally haven't taken any domestic flights except distance more than 2000km or to cities without HSR connection.

To be in the big leagues you gotta think big Big BIG.

 

[AndrewJin]

To be in the big leagues you gotta think big Big BIG.

A lot of anti-development people tend to magnify some small drawbacks but never mention the huge positive impacts on society.
Those cities in China once against HSR are now like weepers and victims, trying everything to get an HSR station in the coming 13th five-year-plan of China. Losers are forever losers, they have a reason.
@AugenBlick If u are interested in HSR development in China, you can check my thread chinese-hsr-news-and-information: original-translations

 

[UKBengali]

Indians should embrace HSR since it is actually very suitable for a country the size of India.

The distances involved between a lot of major cities would mean that the journey can be covered in 1-5 hours. This would mean that train travel would mainly be faster than using planes.

This route would take till 2025 to be ready and then the GDP/ capita of India would have maybe have doubled. With the fact that it would link the financial capital of India(Mumbai) with the largest city in booming Gujarat( Ahmedabad) then there would be enough paying passengers to make the route economically viable.