India's Biggest $25 Billion Defence Deal to Crash Land

[Abingdonboy]

That is debatable, the big ticket price items that significantly add to your capability are still yet to be bought, buying bullets and guns wont make of a difference.

You'd have to buy a lot of bullets and guns to earn the title of "the world's largest arms importer."

It is a complete myth that none of the big ticket items have been ordered, progress in the past 20 months:




AH-64E
CH-47F
M777
S-70B
Rafale
K9 SPG
P-17A
A330 MRTT
C-295
RSH
S-400
P-8I follow ons
C-130J-30 follow ons
PHALCON AWACS follow ons
Deep sea rescue vehicles




GREEN- Deal cleared by CCS, awaiting delivery now
YELLOW- Deal cleared by DAC, now awaiting CCS clearance
RED- Deal pending DAC clearance

That's about $30BN worth of deals cleared since May 2014.

the reluctance of IAF to go for this aircraft as they have shown reservations on this project time and again.

Reluctance to go for it in its current form (ie without its next generation engine and without any of the Indian specific features). Do not forget the IAF specific version (FGFA) has not even flown as of yet.

This make in India thing is really hurting Indian procurements. France and Russia both seem very weary of it. Tech transfers are expensive and complicated.

False on a lot of counts.

1) France has fully embraced Make in India (by far the most of ANY nation on earth)
2) The FGFA was always going to be made in India and considering India is pledging 50% of the development costs it has every right to dictate its own terms.

Money talks and bull$hit walks as they say.

Best they opt for over the shelf delivery followed with gradual infrastructure and overhaul tech transfers. If OEM doesnt have to transfer manufacturing technology, deals will be cheaper and less complicated.

India isn't interest in screwdiver tech anymore- it has ample experience in that, now it is looking for truly cutting edge joint devlopments (like Brahmos and BARAK-8) where Indian knowledge is applied and expanded.

 

[salarsikander]

300+ MKIs are being inducted

Hi, MKI is not the solution to everything, No LCA we have MKI, no RAFel we have MKI. It seems like MKI has become a silver bullet to all IAFs problems. But this is not the case here. RAfael is totally different and LCa too is. So I dont understand why here member post about MKI when discussing the shortcomings faced by other line of jets that are yet to be inducted

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hi, MKI is not the solution to everything, No LCA we have MKI, no RAFel we have MKI. It seems like MKI has become a silver bullet to all IAFs problems. But this is not the case here. RAfael is totally different and LCa too is. So I dont understand why here member post about MKI when discussing the shortcomings faced by other line of jets that are yet to be inducted

That's not at ALL what I said, in fact it's rather the opposite. I am saying that as the IAF is inducting 300+ MKIs (wth >200 already in service) the IAF isn't going to focus too much attention right now on the MKI's replacement or another heavy twin engined Russian fighter. Rather, the IAF has other priorties- the LCA and Rafale right now. As such the MoD has placed a lot of pressure on HAL who have responded with the LCA MK.1A and a promise to produce 25 LCA/year from 2020 onwards, the Rafale deal is now all but closed and the first units will be delivered in early 2018. Towards the end of 2016 the attention of the MoD will switch to finalising the agreement with Dassualt to set up a production line in India for the Rafale to produce 200+ (for the IAF and IN).

Once the Rafales and LCA inductions are folowing then the IAF will likely switch its focus more to the FGFA but right now they are not all that bothered about any so-called issues with the PAK-FA as they know they have time on their side.

 

[Ankit Kumar 002]

That's a paid one out there.

It has been only about a month when news was there that the Indian team would be for the first time will, in person "have a look" at one of the prototype.

And this news was not from Indian media , rather from a Russian source, posted , slightly discussed and then ignored in Russian Defence Forum

@PARIKRAMA has had put up the figures from that website to the FGFA sticky thread too.

 

[salarsikander]

Rafale deal is now all but closed and the first units will be delivered in early 2018

I will not take your word for it. its been two years since you were waving the flag of news. So unless they are actually delivered then we can talk about RAfael before that its just hot air from rafael engine exhaust nozzle

 

[Abingdonboy]

I will not take your word for it. its been two years since you were waving the flag of news. So unless they are actually delivered then we can talk about RAfael before that its just hot air from rafael engine exhaust nozzle

Well that's fair enough but I am more than a little confident in what I'm saying so just watch this space.

 

[shah1398]

Reluctance to go for it in its current form (ie without its next generation engine and without any of the Indian specific features). Do not forget the IAF specific version (FGFA) has not even flown as of yet.

Thats the main problem Sir. IAF is so unsure about the project as they aint involved in this project at no stage till now and they cant blindly put faith in what Russia wud give them in the end.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Well that's fair enough but I am more than a little confident in what I'm saying so just watch this space.

Have a look at his profile page --@salarsikander

It says "Troll mode on "

 

[Abingdonboy]

Thats the main problem Sir. IAF is so unsure about the project as they aint involved in this project at no stage till now and they cant blindly put faith in what Russia wud give them in the end.

There is a difference about being "unsure about the project" and "unsure about the product" The IAF are commited to the need for a heavy class 5th gen VLO fighter but the PAK-FA in its present form is clearly nowhere near what they are demanding and that is normal, the production engine isn't ready and the PAK-FA is still a decade away from being the final product. It would be alarming if the IAF were singing the praises of the PAF-FA in its present form, they are right to be critical- they will be footing the $23-30BN bill so they demand exactly what they seek to be on the final product.

One shouldn't mistake constructive criticsms for disillusionment with the entire project/concept. The execution is what's lacking as of now.

 

[shah1398]

There is a difference about being "unsure about the project" and "unsure about the product" The IAF are commited to the need for a heavy class 5th gen VLO fighter but the PAK-FA in its present form is clearly nowhere near what they are demanding and that is normal, the production engine isn't ready and the PAK-FA is still a decade away from being the final product. It would be alarming if the IAF were singing the praises of the PAF-FA in its present form, they are right to be critical- they will be footing the $23-30BN bill so they demand exactly what they seek to be on the final product.

One shouldn't mistake constructive criticsms for disillusionment with the entire project/concept. The execution is what's lacking as of now.

Sir thats why i deliberately used the word Project rather than just Product . U ve explained it all.

 

[salarsikander]

I am more than a little confident

Hi,

Your actually over-confident, trust me. Judging from the past missed deadlines and the typical Russian and Indian attitude this fusion will only end up in getting IAF even more frustrated

 

[Abingdonboy]

Hi,

Your actually over-confident, trust me. Judging from the past missed deadlines and the typical Russian and Indian attitude this fusion will only end up in getting IAF even more frustrated

We were talking about the Rafale deal being finalsied were we not? Either way, I'm confident in both the Rafale and FGFA coming to the IAF, if the IAF want them there is nothing standing in the way that can't be overcome.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

We were talking about the Rafale deal being finalsied were we not? Either way, I'm confident in both the Rafale and FGFA coming to the IAF, if the IAF want them there is nothing standing in the way that can't be overcome.

Sir why are you indulging These trolls ;please ignore them

 

[salarsikander]

if the IAF want them there is nothing standing in the way that can't be overcome.

Then they would have had Rafaels by now !

 

[Abingdonboy]

Then they would have had Rafaels by now !

They can't dicate the timelines but they are getting the Rafales, check back in 21 months brother