Indian Submarine Acquisitions (Conventional)

[Contrarian]

The second type of SSK for which the RFP will be issued in 2009 was originally planned to be primarily for surface attack. That is why IN got Scorpene as the philosophy was that one design from the west and one from the east. The Amur/S-1000 was thought to be the next SSK as it had significant land attack capability.

With India now getting disgruntled by Russia, the Amur or S-1000 maynot be the frontrunner, though it is still in competition.

FYI: I read a post above, that said that India buys 2 times whatever Pakistan does. That has been true to a certain extent, but things are definitely changing. India has started spending money on its own to up the ante by getting newer and newer hardware, and its Pakistan that has started to react. Eg: India was the one who first signed the deal to get the AWACS with Pakistan following suite. This trend will become more and more prevalent as time goes.

And in this particular case, India has a 30 year submarine plan already, which has been made by MoD and the IN. Feel free to google it, and India is progressing based on that plan, though(as usual) things are delayed.

 

[Neo]

FYI: I read a post above, that said that India buys 2 times whatever Pakistan does. That has been true to a certain extent, but things are definitely changing. India has started spending money on its own to up the ante by getting newer and newer hardware, and its Pakistan that has started to react. Eg: India was the one who first signed the deal to get the AWACS with Pakistan following suite. This trend will become more and more prevalent as time goes.

Wrong, Pakistan requested E-3A Sentry Aew&cs in early 80's during Sovjet invasion of Afghanistan but access was denied. US offered less capable E-2C instead but PAF rejected them. So Pakistan started first, Russia didn't have an answer to Aew&cs back then.
Sanctions after 1993 prevented us from buying major defence equippment from Western countries whereas India launched a major modernisation and expansion programme for her armed forces.

The world market is now open to receive orders from Islamabad and thats what we're doing, replacing obsolete designs with latest technology and expanding our capabilities. We have lost a decade and we're doing all possible to deny India regional dominance. Its part of our military and strategic doctrine.

 

[Jliu]

The second type of SSK for which the RFP will be issued in 2009 was originally planned to be primarily for surface attack. That is why IN got Scorpene as the philosophy was that one design from the west and one from the east. The Amur/S-1000 was thought to be the next SSK as it had significant land attack capability.

With India now getting disgruntled by Russia, the Amur or S-1000 maynot be the frontrunner, though it is still in competition.

And in this particular case, India has a 30 year submarine plan already, which has been made by MoD and the IN. Feel free to google it, and India is progressing based on that plan, though(as usual) things are delayed.

The "30 year plan" is a load of rubbish that appears to be written by a fifteen year old. Makes you upset about the stuff that gets written in newspapers these days by journalists with little or no knowledge about naval affairs. Such as your first claim about the East/West philosophy thing that you took straight from a googled news article.

As far as I know, the IN procurement process is virtually identical to the RN/USN/NATO process-and that is procuring platforms on the basis of greatest mission capability ie. ability to perform delegated missions with max survivibility. Nothing to do with satisfying suppliers-the T209s and 877ekms were simply the best boats out there in terms of acoustic signature management-the premier benchmark by which the RN/USN/RAN measures just how "good" a submarine is.

I am sure the IN has a "30 yr plan" on paper-although subject to revision every year at the rate things are going now. I would also like to add that littoral fire support/"land attack" is NOT a SSK tasking and is also a total load of rubbish.

In fact what the IN top brass are looking for now in regards to their six new SSKs is battlespace dominance and endurance-in other words eliminating all contenders but the U214.

 

[Jliu]

MoD is now allowing private shipyards to manufacture Naval warships now because of the severe capacity crunch in the Govt shipyards. Infact L&T shipyard comming up will be the one bidding for the manufacture of the next line of submarines.

Eventually, most of the major private shipyards comming up in India will be given licence to manufacture naval ships.

Does not apply in SSK construction under licence as vendors insist on caveats on tech transfer-meaning until shipyards can guarantee ToT security then no transfer occurs.

At present and in the near future only Mazagoan satisfies vendor requirements. That said if other yards take up the slack then that will free up Mazagoan for ssk construction.

 

[Contrarian]

Does not apply in SSK construction under licence as vendors insist on caveats on tech transfer-meaning until shipyards can guarantee ToT security then no transfer occurs.

At present and in the near future only Mazagoan satisfies vendor requirements. That said if other yards take up the slack then that will free up Mazagoan for ssk construction.

Well, Mazagaon is already booked till 2018 when the last Scorpene sails out. And the second line of SSK has to start construction around 2012 at the max, so definitely it will be another yard, not Mazagaon.

Secondly, you can ask L&T why they keep on insisting that they are competing for the bid to manufacture the next SSK India buys. And L&T is also involved in the ATV manufacture. So i guess L&T has the requisite clout and technological capabilities and satisfies the security protocols.

 

[Contrarian]

Wrong, Pakistan requested E-3A Sentry Aew&cs in early 80's during Sovjet invasion of Afghanistan but access was denied. US offered less capable E-2C instead but PAF rejected them. So Pakistan started first, Russia didn't have an answer to Aew&cs back then.
Sanctions after 1993 prevented us from buying major defence equippment from Western countries whereas India launched a major modernisation and expansion programme for her armed forces.

The world market is now open to receive orders from Islamabad and thats what we're doing, replacing obsolete designs with latest technology and expanding our capabilities. We have lost a decade and we're doing all possible to deny India regional dominance. Its part of our military and strategic doctrine.

I am aware that PAF tried hard to get the E-3A's in the 80's. Im talking about the current scenario Neo. Like i said, back in the day Pakistan was the one who brought new equipment and upped the ante in South Asia. Now the times have changed, while Pakistan due to the 90's fell in a trap of debts and in political mess, India OTOH has started buying newer equipment without regard to Pakistan.

 

[Contrarian]

The "30 year plan" is a load of rubbish that appears to be written by a fifteen year old. Makes you upset about the stuff that gets written in newspapers these days by journalists with little or no knowledge about naval affairs. Such as your first claim about the East/West philosophy thing that you took straight from a googled news article.

Dont google a lot mate, im addicted to newspapers though!

As far as I know, the IN procurement process is virtually identical to the RN/USN/NATO process-and that is procuring platforms on the basis of greatest mission capability ie. ability to perform delegated missions with max survivibility. Nothing to do with satisfying suppliers-the T209s and 877ekms were simply the best boats out there in terms of acoustic signature management-the premier benchmark by which the RN/USN/RAN measures just how "good" a submarine is.

I am sure the IN has a "30 yr plan" on paper-although subject to revision every year at the rate things are going now. I would also like to add that littoral fire support/"land attack" is NOT a SSK tasking and is also a total load of rubbish.

Well i cant really argue there. The Navy has constantly been stating that it wants to be very relevant to the land battle and thus they want the sub which has a good LACM capability which i readup was in the LADA/S-1000/Amur whatever.
And i also think the CNS was quoted saying that 'one sub type from the west and one from the east'.

In fact what the IN top brass are looking for now in regards to their six new SSKs is battlespace dominance and endurance-in other words eliminating all contenders but the U214.

If the latest requirements or preferences have changed, i cannot say, we can only discuss when the RFP comes out.

 

[Jliu]

Well i cant really argue there. The Navy has constantly been stating that it wants to be very relevant to the land battle and thus they want the sub which has a good LACM capability which i readup was in the LADA/S-1000/Amur whatever.
And i also think the CNS was quoted saying that 'one sub type from the west and one from the east'.

For littoral fire support you use surface combatants especially equipped for that role, say the DDG-51s and FREMM LA. The very idea that SSKs be used for LFS is idiotic as with the first LACM launch the area will be crawling with ASuW platforms with no chance of slipping away with assets going active.

The only applicable situation is a nuclear tipped SLCM launch where survivability is secondary to the mission.

If the latest requirements or preferences have changed, i cannot say, we can only discuss when the RFP comes out.

A little bit of research to the public statements of serving IN officers reveal that:

a) "Endurance" only refers to four contenders-U214, Scorpene, Marlin and Amur 1650 as the former have 'advanced' AIP systems while the last appears to have a system outfitted although yet unknown.

b) The new SSKs will not be of the Scorpene class.

c) Judging from the Gorkshov fiasco Russian equipment is not in vogue anymore.

d) Due to the fact that the Marlin design is still on the board and as as such is unsanitised- "battlespace dominance" whatever that means defines one candidate.

Guess.

This is not to say other designs will not bid but whether they have a chance is another matter altogether. For the record, the RAN believes the above and we will be looking forward to excercising with the IN's new toys in the future.

 

[Jliu]

Well, Mazagaon is already booked till 2018 when the last Scorpene sails out. And the second line of SSK has to start construction around 2012 at the max, so definitely it will be another yard, not Mazagaon.

Secondly, you can ask L&T why they keep on insisting that they are competing for the bid to manufacture the next SSK India buys. And L&T is also involved in the ATV manufacture. So i guess L&T has the requisite clout and technological capabilities and satisfies the security protocols.

With the recent delays due to "ToT" you can push that back to 2020-2022 unless the French get their compensation payment this year.

L&T as of 2008 does not satisfy OPSEC protocols for sensitive ToT-the only shipyard in India that does is Mazagoan. I'm not sure about when they will but the certification process takes close to a year and TKMS is very sensitive about that sort of thing as everyone knows there are a lot of pro-Russian Indians out there-so as a vendor you ensure your product doesn't "leak" unecessarily.

For example take the French with their acoustic signature management transfer for the PN 90B's in the late 90's. The Americans aren't too happy that the Chicom late model Songs and Yuans are turning up with similar signature levels-and neither is the IN that the 90B sig is roughly comparable with their refitted 877s.

 

[nitesh]

Well i cant really argue there. The Navy has constantly been stating that it wants to be very relevant to the land battle and thus they want the sub which has a good LACM capability which i readup was in the LADA/S-1000/Amur whatever.
And i also think the CNS was quoted saying that 'one sub type from the west and one from the east'.

For littoral fire support you use surface combatants especially equipped for that role, say the DDG-51s and FREMM LA. The very idea that SSKs be used for LFS is idiotic as with the first LACM launch the area will be crawling with ASuW platforms with no chance of slipping away with assets going active.

The only applicable situation is a nuclear tipped SLCM launch where survivability is secondary to the mission.



A little bit of research to the public statements of serving IN officers reveal that:

a) "Endurance" only refers to four contenders-U214, Scorpene, Marlin and Amur 1650 as the former have 'advanced' AIP systems while the last appears to have a system outfitted although yet unknown.

b) The new SSKs will not be of the Scorpene class.

c) Judging from the Gorkshov fiasco Russian equipment is not in vogue anymore.

d) Due to the fact that the Marlin design is still on the board and as as such is unsanitised- "battlespace dominance" whatever that means defines one candidate.

Guess.

This is not to say other designs will not bid but whether they have a chance is another matter altogether. For the record, the RAN believes the above and we will be looking forward to excercising with the IN's new toys in the future.

Hey Jliu,
quite good analysis. But I read somewhere (will try to dig out the info) that VLS tubes are a must for second line of SSK's. And Amur have them. Does U-214 gives the same capability.

 

[Always Neutral]

With the recent delays due to "ToT" you can push that back to 2020-2022 unless the French get their compensation payment this year.

L&T as of 2008 does not satisfy OPSEC protocols for sensitive ToT-the only shipyard in India that does is Mazagoan. I'm not sure about when they will but the certification process takes close to a year and TKMS is very sensitive about that sort of thing as everyone knows there are a lot of pro-Russian Indians out there-so as a vendor you ensure your product doesn't "leak" unecessarily.

What about HSL ?

Its been transferred to MOD recently.

Its done refits of the Foxtrots.

Its done refits of the Kilos.

Its done the MLU and Klub upgradation for the last two Kilos.

The ATV will be based there.

Regards

 

[Contrarian]

With the recent delays due to "ToT" you can push that back to 2020-2022 unless the French get their compensation payment this year.

L&T as of 2008 does not satisfy OPSEC protocols for sensitive ToT-the only shipyard in India that does is Mazagoan. I'm not sure about when they will but the certification process takes close to a year and TKMS is very sensitive about that sort of thing as everyone knows there are a lot of pro-Russian Indians out there-so as a vendor you ensure your product doesn't "leak" unecessarily.

For example take the French with their acoustic signature management transfer for the PN 90B's in the late 90's. The Americans aren't too happy that the Chicom late model Songs and Yuans are turning up with similar signature levels-and neither is the IN that the 90B sig is roughly comparable with their refitted 877s.

As mentioned by Always Neutral for HSL.
Apart from that do explain how is L&T involved in the manufacturing of ATV directly if it doesnt satisfy the security requirements and the secrecy clauses. Again, i repeat, L&T has constantly said that THEY ARE BIDDING for manufacturing the next line of SSK's whichever India chooses.

 

[Contrarian]

For littoral fire support you use surface combatants especially equipped for that role, say the DDG-51s and FREMM LA. The very idea that SSKs be used for LFS is idiotic as with the first LACM launch the area will be crawling with ASuW platforms with no chance of slipping away with assets going active.

I do realise that for such support DDG's would be better, but then again, i am NOT in the Navy, i am reiterating what they have said. And what they did say is that they are looking for good land attack capability in the new SSK and that previously Amur was the front runner as it was the best in the desired qualities. Whether it is the better of the lot or not is questionable, i repeat, i am reiterating what was said.

A little bit of research to the public statements of serving IN officers reveal that:

a) "Endurance" only refers to four contenders-U214, Scorpene, Marlin and Amur 1650 as the former have 'advanced' AIP systems while the last appears to have a system outfitted although yet unknown.

b) The new SSKs will not be of the Scorpene class.

c) Judging from the Gorkshov fiasco Russian equipment is not in vogue anymore.

d) Due to the fact that the Marlin design is still on the board and as as such is unsanitised- "battlespace dominance" whatever that means defines one candidate.

Guess.

I am pretty sure as well that the main competition is between the Amur and the U-214. Dont forget Russia has many strings it can pull to get the deal. The Navy is pretty pissed at Russia, but the Navy doesnt decide what it gets, the MoD does, and the IN only gets to send a recommendation, which has precedence of being ignored.

If Pakistan hurries up and signs a deal to buy U-214's then it would seriously change the equations. MoD will in all probability not buy the same equipment PN has, so in that case, Amur becomes the only choice.

This is not to say other designs will not bid but whether they have a chance is another matter altogether. For the record, the RAN believes the above and we will be looking forward to excercising with the IN's new toys in the future.

Do explain the bold part mate.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

All posts related to Indian shipyards and SSK requirement moved here from the Pakistan ssk requirement thread.

 

[nitesh]

After Army, Navy too wants new air wing-India-The Times of India

After Army, Navy too wants new air wing
24 Jun 2008, 0151 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: After the Army's plan to build its own "tactical" air force left IAF fuming, Navy too is going full steam ahead to bolster its ageing air power.

The Navy is in the hunt for more supersonic fighters, reconnaissance aircraft, multi-role and anti-submarine warfare helicopters, UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) and AJTs (advanced jet trainers) to emerge as "a true three-dimensional blue-water force".

"IAF will continue to play the strategic role but both Navy and Army want to strengthen their aviation wings. Moreover, unlike Army, we have long been in the business of operating fighters from aircraft carriers," said a senior Navy officer.

The force, after all, wants to operate two "carrier battle groups" centred around two aircraft carriers, with their own complements of fighters and helicopters, to project power in the Indian Ocean and beyond in the next five to seven years.

First, with the delivery of 16 MiG-29Ks from Russia slated to begin from October, plans are afoot to go in for another 30-36 of these fighters. The MiG-29Ks will be supplemented by the naval variant of the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), the first prototype of which will take to the skies by end-2008.

The 16 MiG-29Ks were part of the original $1.5-billion deal signed in 2004 for Admiral Gorshkov, now being renegotiated after Russia demanded another $1.2 billion for refit of the 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier.

"Both Gorshkov and the indigenous aircraft carrier being built at Cochin Shipyard will require MiG-29K squadrons. The 37,500-tonne IAC, for instance, is designed to carry 12 MiG-29Ks, eight LCA and 10 helicopters," said an officer.

Along with this, the Rs 476-crore upgrade of the remaining 10 Sea Harrier jump-jets, which operate from India's solitary carrier INS Viraat, is also currently underway.

Thats interesting news, a bit of info on future IN