Indian scheme to control Bangladesh business and trade

[su-47]

Ramu

Thanks for your comments, look we are a poor country and like most countries in our stage of development we have many problems of our own. I have no problem doing business with India if it’s in our benefit, but if anything is detrimental to our interests I will say so. India is a larger country then us with a bigger more mature market, however it is also one of the more restrictive (have a look at the negative list targeted specific to Bangladesh), so on one hand we are expected to open our markets to Indian goods and services but at the same time India restricts what we can sell. Now on the trust thing you asked with regards India, Indian occupation of one our islands on our west coast, border enclaves issues etc are just a few things but its generally the big brother attitude and expectation that Bangladesh is part India’s sphere of influence (generally we don't like being told what we should and shouldn't do).

Look when Indians talk about India / Bangladesh friendship, it seems most of the time in the context of, how India helped in our independence and we therefore have to be forever grateful to them or how they are giving us this line of credit and its made to sound like aid to Bangladesh, when it’s just standard business practice (we get same when buying goods and service from other countries/world bank).

Just an example of what I mean, I live here in the UK and work for a company where they have a large Indian work force (they are on contract from an Indian company, supporting us), they mostly talk to each other in Hindi, and so I also spoke to them in Hindi (note a lot of Bangladeshis are fluent in Hindi, blame Bollywood for that). Anyway they never asked me where I was from; eventually the topic of Bangladesh came up at lunch, and you would not believe the stuff they were saying (I won’t repeat it here), it was verging on the racist. You should have seen their faces when I told them where I was from, funny how quickly they change their tune!

Hope you understand what I am getting at, I’m not anti Indian, just pro Bangladeshi, if you want to win our trust, talk to us on an equal basis and don't try to sound like you’re preaching, just remember we are an INDEPENDENT sovereign country, with our own national interest which may often not coincide with yours.

An excellent post. You are absolutely right.

A lot of Indians do expect Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan and Nepal to adhere to Indian policy, since India is the biggest player in the region. I have seen Indians looking down on citizens of neighbouring nations, especially in the light of our current economic ascension. What many Indian politicians and civilians forget is that these are sovereign nations and as such should pursue their interest, not ours.

Right now, as damiendehorn said in a subsequent post, China is offering them better terms and trade conditions. So if India wants to improve trade and relations with bangladesh, we have to treat them as an equal, sovereign nation, which, unfortunately, many in our political establishment don't.

Now, about 1971, it happened almost 4 decades ago. I am sure many bangladeshis are grateful for it, and many are not. But India can't use '71 as a reason to believe Bangladesh will constantly look up to us. If Russia comes to boss India around, will we stand for it? Even though USSR did support us during the Cold War?

If India wants to be a regional superpower we should do so by winning the respect and admiration of our neighbours, not by using our economic, political or military superiority to belittle others. We should compete with China in the region by offering our neighbours better trade terms.

 

[su-47]

But to add to my previous post, a good neighbouring relationship should be mutual. Bangladesh should stop providing safe havens to anti-indian terrorists, and should also take steps to stem the tide of illegal immigrants to India. Only then can we really get along as good neighbours.

A bridge should go both ways.

 

[damiendehorn]

Su-47, at least it’s good to see a few forum members trying to understand their neighbour’s point of view, there could yet be a future, only time will tell. The word mutual is very important in this context, as you know our government has already gone the extra mile here and handed over most anti-India elements already, now we are waiting for a response on the 1000 or so listed terrorists on Indian soil that we are after, hope they deliver on this as we have.

Illegal immigrants numbers have been wildly exaggerated, internal Indian politic we understand, but the only real long term solution to this is improved economic development, so that migrants don’t need to think of going abroad for better opportunity, as you know we have huge numbers of illegal immigrants here in the UK including from India, who arrive as students and then either overstay or “disappear” but I don’t begrudge them. They are only trying to make a better life for themselves.

Now issues such as south talpatty island, the border enclaves, trade, water and BSF shootings etc need to be fixed.

We have already walked half way across this bridge; let’s see how far you are willing to come, or if it’s just talk.

 

[Kavin]

@su-47

I have seen Indians looking down on citizens of neighbouring nations, especially in the light of our current economic ascension. What many Indian politicians and civilians forget is that these are sovereign nations and as such should pursue their interest, not ours.

Which Indians you're talking about?

I'm an Indian... PROUD INDIAN, never look down BD, SR, Nepal, Bhutan, etc.. nd forget to mention

we're obsessed with these nations!

 

[su-47]

India is willing to walk the length of the bridge. This can be seen by increased Indian investment in Bangladesh. No one invests in a nation perceived as hostile. India would not have invested billions in Bangladesh had it not seen a future where India and Bangladesh were working together.

Yes, Bangladesh has stepped up efforts against anti-India elements, and India did thank Bangladesh for this. We are not taking your assistance for granted. I am sure India will react in kind.

Illegal immigration is a real problem. I dunno to what extent the figures are true, but fact remains that east india, especially Assam and West Bengal, face illegal immigration. This causes Indian citizens to lose job. This is the MAIN reason for any Indian ill feeling towards Bangladesh. India is trying its best to stem the tide, but our border is vast and mainly in remote areas, so patrolling the whole border is impossible. We can only put a stop to this illegal immigration if Bangladesh also co-operates fully. But often, this is not the case. Many in India feel Bangladesh doesn't do much to stop illegal immigration.

I have never heard of the south talpatty island issue. I have to read it up. I will comment on it once I know more about it. In the mean time, maybe you can post something on it, since you seem well informed about it.

As for BSF shootings, there's always two sides to a story. Your version is that BSF shoots Bangladeshi citizens, sometimes inside Bangladesh. BSF's version is that they shoot infiltrators (possible terrorists) into Indian territory. I am sure the truth is somewhere in-between. This issue can only be solved if an independent investigation is held to find the truth. Same case with border enclaves, trade and water issues. We need a mediator.

But I am glad that progress has been made between India and Bangladesh. Things are much better between the nations than before. I am just sad that there are still members on both sides of the border who are unwilling to see eye to eye and adamantly hold on to their preconceived notion of mutual hostility. But I believe, in time, their numbers will decrease.

 

[su-47]

@su-47


Which Indians you're talking about?

I'm an Indian... PROUD INDIAN, never look down BD, SR, Nepal, Bhutan, etc.. nd forget to mention

we're obsessed with these nations!

I'm glad u r a sensible person, but unfortunately not everyone is like you. I've met some here in Bots and some in Singapore. They have this notion that Bangladeshis are somehow 'inferior' because they needed our help to gain independence, and are still 'sneaking across the border to steal our jobs.' I don't want to go into more detail, since it will just incite a flame war.

To Bangladeshi members: This is NOT my personal view. I was just talking about a minority of Indians I met. But then these guys are NRIs who even looked down on Indians in mainland India . Dumasses.

 

[Kavin]

I'm glad u r a sensible person, but unfortunately not everyone is like you. I've met some here in Bots and some in Singapore. They have this notion that Bangladeshis are somehow 'ierinfor' because they needed our help to gain independence, and are still 'sneaking across the border to steal our jobs.' I don't want to go into more detail, since it will just incite a flame war.

Didn't we help Bangladeshi's to gain their independence?

Aren't they sneaking across our border to steal our resource?

@inferiority of B'Deshis
No, they're not inferiour to us. But they set a stage to show off our slowly picked up military strength

 

[damiendehorn]

kavin
Didn't we help Bangladeshi's to gain their independence?

And you’re implying from this what, care to elaborate? Should we show gratitude for eternity, the fact she did is not in question, reasons why India helped in Bangladesh’s independence struggle has been continuously debated, but my question to you is what are you implying by asking this question?

Aren't they sneaking across our border to steal our resource?

Steal your resource? Illegal or not these are poor people who will try to do what they have to improve their lot in life, there are scores of Indians coming here to the UK illegally, but you never seem to worry too much about that.
You have the same problem internally with migration to Mumbai from other states, but please don't mention any of that.

@inferiority of B'Deshis
No, they're not inferiour to us. But they set a stage to show off our slowly picked up military strength
The last line made no sense to me; sorry you’re going to have to make yourself clearer. What has the perceived inferiority of Bangladeshis by some Indians got to do with military strength?

 

[damiendehorn]

Well we could debate this until the cows come home as they say here (yea I know never understood the phrase myself), but question was a logical one from ramu, about what India could do to win the trust of the Bangladeshi people?

To answer that question, folks, it’s going to take a long long long time and a lot of effort from both sides. There are many people in Bangladesh who mistrust Indian intentions and our respective governments have just started to talk to each other and we have a long road ahead of us. I hope the Indians don’t rely too much on one government, they need to think long term, and we have been down this road before.

If India wants to spend hundreds of billions of hard earned money buying defence equipment from America, Russia or Israel (keeping their people employed)and play who’s got the biggest **** in the yard with China and Pakistan or whoever it’s her business.

As for us people from BD, I personally think we should not get involved in regional politics, we should think smart and act smart, like the Swiss, our priority is to build our economy, education, health etc. If it means doing business with India, China or Pakistan fine, provided it benefits us I don’t particularly care.

So for now I will reserve my judgement and let the government decide the policy, even though I hate all politicians from any party (all a bunch of crooks) and see what happens next.

To be continued as they say...now where are those cows?

 

[sensenreason]

Sensenreason you haven’t quite understood if it was just an image problem then it won’t be an issue, it’s a lot more than that let me break it down for you.

a) The big brother attitude is just not the reserve of a few envoys or babus visiting our capital to give a sermon or two or their tone of communication, it is endemic to the GOI and the Indian general public (it is this mindset that needs to change), just going through the posts from Indian members on this forum show what I mean.Remember Bangladesh is an independent sovereign country with a right to action that it believes is in its national interest, it is NOT part of the Indian sphere of influence. The fact that your neighbours complain about this might suggest there is more than an image problem here.

b) Our trade with China or any other country is a matter for us and not India’s, we don’t preach to India who they should trade with, we don’t have a lot of resources so we will trade with any country that offers us the best options, right now that is China, no one seems to be able to beat them on price/performance.
If China wants to put lay out the red carpet and give us fair prices why should we say no?

c) Buying security equipment from China does not put us in their embrace, or for that matter buying from America, UK, Italy, Russia or Turkey put us in any embrace with these nations. We buy what suits our defence needs and what we can afford.

d) Viewed with disdain, now here you go again with that big brother attitude, should we only do things that India likes? Please note we don’t need Indian approval, Bangladesh is free to choose its own path, that what independent and sovereign means.

e) Giving us some “public” concessions? Like what? Is this few titbits somehow going make us trust you? India has to resolve ALL issues before we begin to have any trust.

f) Oh and the people to people contacts, if you read my example, you will know how this went.

Agreed with a),b),c),d). However, let me explain the context of my comments.

a) There is no conspiracy to use a Big Brother attitude with BD.There is no official sphere of influence but bigger countries do influence (or lead) the smaller one's. Like the Amercians or Russians or French etc etc. Bigger companies influence the smaller one's. Bigger political parties influence the smaller one's. Size does matter especially in economics, politics and yes the military. Influence need not mean control..just a little bit of leverage...its another word for dependency.

Ofcourse the bigger party/company/country's influence doesnt mean the smaller one has lost its freedom and it must be given respect.

I think BD is looking for more respect, becoz GOI sucks at delivering the message appropriately atleast in the public domain.It must give respect.Influence doesnt mean BD cannot formulate independent policies...

b) & c) I agree BD should trade with the one who provides you the best deal. Market forces work here...Hopefully, you will provide equal market access to the Reds and Indians. Ofcourse, India can 'fee' whatever it wants to when it comes to Reds giving BD a better deal just becoz its India's neightbour.

On defence, India wouldnt want Chinese to be too close with BD for obvious reasons..India's security. Whats wrong with that? As the Reds are likely to use its influence with BD during a war or a similar situation.

d) BD is free to choose its partners and ofcourse BD chooses partners who are inimical to India, then obviously there are security/economic implications and it doesnt mean BD isnt free to choose its partners ...just that this choice influences and affects India too....Where is the big brother here? (Infact its called Bigg Boss in India)

e) If my diagnosis was in my comments that its a PR problem then obviously the solution is also public concessions and not necessarily substantive changes....

However, if you think the issues are deeper rooted then cosmetic or PR is not the solution. Obviously.

f) Im Indian and am NOT biased against BD...for a start my comments on your post is a people to people contact atleast from my side is respectful of you as a Bangaldeshi. Hope it counts.

 

[damiendehorn]

Sensenreason

The answer is simple; all you need to do is replace BD with India, China with Russia and India with USA in your reply, that way you’ll get an idea of how it looks from our point of view, what looks to you as logical, sounds rather patronizing to us (I know being over sensitive and bla bla). There is a fine line between influence/leverage and bullying, most Bangladeshi’s are still suspicious of anything Indian (I know I live there) so as I said in my previous post this is going to take a lot of time and patience.

Look the thing is most people in Bangladesh, aren’t interested In geopolitics in siding with India over China or the other way round, we are not looking for respect from India, China, USA or whoever (if anyone has to seek respect from others, they have no respect for themselves(might have to patent this phrase me thinks)). People in Bangladesh are extremely self-confident these days and won’t stand for being told what to do whether you call it influence/leverage or whatever.

I am sure your comments were well meant, so in the spirit of friendship, thank you.

Here you go…

Agreed with a),b),c),d). However, let me explain the context of my comments.

a) There is no conspiracy to use a Big Brother attitude with India. There is no official sphere of influence but bigger countries do influence (or lead) the smaller ones. Like the Russians etc. Bigger companies influence the smaller ones. Bigger political parties influence the smaller ones. Size does matter especially in economics, politics and yes the military. Influence need not mean control..just a little bit of leverage...it’s another word for dependency.

Of course the bigger party/company/country's influence doesn’t mean the smaller one has lost its freedom and it must be given respect.

I think India is looking for more respect, becoz USA sucks at delivering the message appropriately at least in the public domain. It must give respect. Influence doesn’t mean India cannot formulate independent policies...

b) & c) I agree India should trade with the one who provides you the best deal. Market forces work here...Hopefully, you will provide equal market access to Russia and America. Of course, America can 'fee' whatever it wants to when it comes to Russia giving India a better deal just becoz its America's neightbour.

On defense, USA wouldn’t want Russia to be too close with India for obvious reasons..America's security. Whats wrong with that? As the Russians are likely to use its influence with India during a war or a similar situation.

d) India is free to choose its partners and of course India chooses partners, who are inimical to USA, then obviously there are security/economic implications and it doesn’t mean India isn’t free to choose its partners ...just that this choice influences and affects USA too....Where is the big brother here? (In fact it’s called CIA in USA )

e) If my diagnosis was in my comments that it’s a PR problem then obviously the solution is also public concessions and not necessarily substantive changes....

However, if you think the issues are deeper rooted then cosmetic or PR is not the solution. Obviously.

f) Im American and am NOT biased against India...for a start my comments on your post is a people to people contact at least from my side is respectful of you as a Indian. Hope it counts.

 

[damiendehorn]

Here you go su47, a link to some info about south talpatti islands...South Talpatti Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

 

[sarthak]

For a late starter 3rd world poor country, today's BD record is not bad. BD has a $100 billion per year GDP, its foreign exchange earning by exports and remittances is about $27 billion per year and its foreign reserve stands at $10 billion at the moment.

Please note that, at the time of partition of India in 1947, BD had only one factory named Mohini Mills that produced cotton textiles. Now, get information and inform us about all the multi-trillion dollar assets that your British masters had left for you.

Once our electricity production reaches a certain level you will see many industrial developments in BD. A double-digit development of economy is not that impossible after, say, 4 years from now. Who cares then if we are not the 51st State of Uncle Sam.

But, note that our roads are still better than the Indian roads. A bus drive here will not take you to a hospital with broken limbs. Not only roads, come, visit BD and see our skyscrappers in Dhaka.

Skyscrapers that were built by the chinese and foreign MNC's for you? Is that what you are talkin about? The only thing u see when you type dhaka in google is a bunch of ancient concrete buildings surrounded by the most pathetic slums one can imagine. And roads , please dont rant about them. The roads in the most underdeveloped parts in india are better than roads in your Dhaka , which is modern by your standards.
I will definetely visit dhaka. Not now. But in around 10-15 years , yeah. It will look way better when it's under water than it looks now.

 

[TopCat]

Skyscrapers that were built by the chinese and foreign MNC's for you? Is that what you are talkin about? The only thing u see when you type dhaka in google is a bunch of ancient concrete buildings surrounded by the most pathetic slums one can imagine. And roads , please dont rant about them. The roads in the most underdeveloped parts in india are better than roads in your Dhaka , which is modern by your standards.
I will definetely visit dhaka. Not now. But in around 10-15 years , yeah. It will look way better when it's under water than it looks now.

There are few threads already dedicated with the picture of dhaka citiy. You no need to go to google. There are slums in dhaka like any other major cities in the sub continent.
Definitely our communication system is rural bengal is in a far better shape than many countries including our neighbour. But we need to work on highways now and Govt already moved to build all major roads to 4 lane highways, 6 lane Dhaka-Cht highway. Also tenders are already in process for building Elevated expressway from Dhaka to Chittagong. Cool aint it?

PS: How many bridges do you have over the river of Ganga and Bhramaputra and whats their length in India. We got 5 of them already built or under construction within our small teritorry and all of them over 4 km to 6 km long.

 

[ramu]

Guys, I can see that rational and reasoning has taken a back seat and arguments for the sake of making is driving this thread. We all know that India has good influence on BD and no one can deny that. The scale and magnitude of projects that are currently in progress give a good understanding of India's leverage. It is also important that most companies in BD would like to have access to the Indian market. For India, access to BD's market is not a game changer.

Consider the deal of Bharti in the telecom space. The share price of Bharti (by coincidence forms a significant part of my portfolio) did not move an inch. Why? Because the growth potential in BD is limited to the demographies and nothing significant when compared to India. Contrast that to a company n BD getting access to the Indian market. The share price, I can assure you will grow by 30% in a single trading session. It is in BD's interest to partner with India and that is not an exclusive partnership. BD can choose to trade and partner with China too. BD is in a position to make the most of competition between India and Pakistan.

Just to balance the perspective of my Indian friends, please stop posting messages that sound ridiculously patronising.

BD is not India's colony and India has no business in dictating BD's foreign policy. So stop dreaming about Akhand Bharat and think about co existence.
Globalisation has brought wealth to a select set of people in Bangladesh just like India. BD should make the right choice for its own development and prosperity. However, the people in BD are either against India or anti China but few have a balanced approach to suppress this mindset and work as Pro BD.

Blind hatred or love will lead to a disaster.