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[Joe Shearer]

Its not about me shutting up or not. Its about your 'hypocrisy" which is exposed time and again here on PDF.

Only to the rabble from the Sangh Parivar.

Nor are the 39% of Indians who voted for NDA and in turn, Modi. So as per you, 39% of Indians (who are mostly Hindus) are not moderate and are uncivilised. Nice to know.

Not really. Most of those who voted for Modi, outside the core Hindutva constituency, did so in revolt against the corruption of the UPA 2, and in the hope that he would bring back the economic boom of UPA 1. Watch what happens when they realise they've been diddled.

Atheist doesn't mean to berate other's religion and feelings. BTW you are far from being an athiest. Where wre you in that thread where Hindus were killed in pakistan or that other day when in Meerut a Hindu boy was killed?

As it happens, I think all religions are rotten, and should be kept under strict watch.

If anything, you should be thankful that you are in India.

I WAS thankful that I was in India. Not any longer.

Not many hours ago 20 Shias were killed in Pakistan for being... yes... Shias. In BD, anti-Islamic intellectuals are routinely murdered. Compare that to India where 1 man getting lynched out of 180 million grabs headlines for 2 months and every Hindu is responsible. Can't even imagine a person like you in the Arab world or Syria or Bangladesh or whatever. Still you will mock us "majority" and blame us being intolerant.

Yes, absolutely, I mock you and hate you because you have converted a tolerant, inclusive country and society into a hateful one.

I don't care whether you opposed Congress or Hitler or Stalin. I only care when you label us "mostly Hindus" as communal, uncivilized and what not.

If you don't care, then you shouldn't assume things. Never say these things in future. As far as you and your pack is concerned, you are communal, uncivilised and in need of harsh corrective discipline.

How bluntly do you want to hear it?

So @Joe Shearer , is there any political party in India that you support....or is Congress simply the least bad option since they are not inherently evil like the Sanghis...or are they all equally bad?

Just interested in your opinion!

No, there is no political party at the moment which shows even a possibility of being what the country needs. The Congress is a gangrened limb that should have been amputated 30 years ago.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

Its not about me shutting up or not. Its about your 'hypocrisy" which is exposed time and again here on PDF.



Nor are the 39% of Indians who voted for NDA and in turn, Modi. So as per you, 39% of Indians (who are mostly Hindus) are not moderate and are uncivilised. Nice to know.


Atheist doesn't mean to berate other's religion and feelings. BTW you are far from being an athiest. Where wre you in that thread where Hindus were killed in pakistan or that other day when in Meerut a Hindu boy was killed?



If anything, you should be thankful that you are in India. Not many hours ago 20 Shias were killed in Pakistan for being... yes... Shias. In BD, anti-Islamic intellectuals are routinely murdered. Compare that to India where 1 man getting lynched out of 180 million grabs headlines for 2 months and every Hindu is responsible. Can't even imagine a person like you in the Arab world or Syria or Bangladesh or whatever. Still you will mock us "majority" and blame us being intolerant.



I don't care whether you opposed Congress or Hitler or Stalin. I only care when you label us "mostly Hindus" as communal, uncivilized and what not.

His moral barometer is defined by what Pakistanis and Chinese and Turks and Saudis like and appreciate. I always maintained this guy is the Indian Pakistani and his attitude merely a reflection of Pakistaniyat in India. No wonder he hates India and Hindus to the core.

 

[Joe Shearer]

His moral barometer is defined by what Pakistanis and Chinese and Turks and Saudis like and appreciate. I always maintained this guy is the Indian Pakistani and his attitude merely a reflection of Pakistaniyat in India. No wonder he hates India and Hindus to the core.

Try to deal with facts. they won't harm you, you will be surprised.

My moral compass, not barometer, you jackfool, is set up independent of any religion. So it stands to reason that it should be closer to what a broad generality thinks, rather than what you bigoted bunch think.

Since you are blind, deaf and dumb, you have not noticed how I castigate anyone who drops his (or her) standards.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

Try to deal with facts. they won't harm you, you will be surprised.

My moral compass, not barometer, you jackfool, is set up independent of any religion. So it stands to reason that it should be closer to what a broad generality thinks, rather than what you bigoted bunch think.

Since you are blind, deaf and dumb, you have not noticed how I castigate anyone who drops his (or her) standards.

Oh yes, the Pakistanis and the Chinese and the Turks and Sauds being the epitome of non-bigotry on planet Earth, they are the ones your moral barometer (not compass you idiot) reflects. Are you talking of being closer to broad generality? In India the broad generality is that you and the likes of you are class A douchebags long over due for a corrective action.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Oh yes, the Pakistanis and the Chinese and the Turks and Sauds being the epitome of non-bigotry on planet Earth, they are the ones your moral barometer (not compass you idiot) reflects. Are you talking of being closer to broad generality? In India the broad generality is that you and the likes of you are class A douchebags long over due for a corrective action.

They are far from the epitome of non-bigotry on earth. But they are far from the epitome of bigotry that is the Sangh Parivar. By taking them into account, I am equi-distanced from both poles of bigotry.

And you shouldn't use bad words.

 

[Samudra Manthan]

They are far from the epitome of non-bigotry on earth. But they are far from the epitome of bigotry that is the Sangh Parivar. By taking them into account, I am equi-distanced from both poles of bigotry.

And you shouldn't use bad words.

Sicko, you are a joke as is your reasoning. It is only using the lens of Pakistaniyat that one can arrive at conclusions that you do.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sicko, you are a joke as is your reasoning. It is only using the lens of Pakistaniyat that one can arrive at conclusions that you do.

Not really.

What you are has always been clear, through your various avatars and reincarnations. That has always been majoritarian. If there are more of you, you make the laws, you decide the rules, and to hell with the others. Most of all, to hell with the legal process. Mob rules apply. That is what you want, and that is what is happening.

And please don't call me sicko.

 

[Nilgiri]

No, there is no political party at the moment which shows even a possibility of being what the country needs. The Congress is a gangrened limb that should have been amputated 30 years ago.

OK, I can see you point. At least you hate every major political party equally. That I can empathize with to a degree. There are elements within BJP I also have much disdain and contempt for....but on the whole I find them to be at least objective oriented with regards to Indian economy and development.

Congress and "secular" parties are more:

and dont seek to change anything...because no one should be upset about the change.

But striving for change, getting into arguments, and still staying united is part of nation building. It will make us stronger in the long run....and if we come apart because of it....the sooner the better....why stay in pain and squalor indefinitely?

Brushing the problems underneath the carpet and claiming they don't exist is a doomed mentality and India will fail badly if we continue to follow that path.

Thats why I admire the BJP, they expose the problems in their own unique way.....because they see India as a great country and civilisation....and they aspire to achieve that. Such attitude will have some bad elements inevitably but they dont speak for all of us.

 

[Joe Shearer]

OK, I can see you point. At least you hate every major political party equally. That I can empathize with to a degree. There are elements within BJP I also have much disdain and contempt for....but on the whole I find them to be at least objective oriented with regards to Indian economy and development.

Congress and "secular" parties are more:

and dont seek to change anything...because no one should be upset about the change.

But striving for change, getting into arguments, and still staying united is part of nation building. It will make us stronger in the long run.

Brushing the problems underneath the carpet and claiming they don't exist is a doomed mentality and India will fail badly if we continue to follow that path.

I am not - if that remark was intended for me - brushing the problems under the carpet and claiming that they don't exist. It isn't clear how you look at things, but it might seem to some that my role has been the exact opposite. And that is what is disliked by the Shining India shills.

First, Modi and his government came to power because of the hunger of the lower middle classes for more.economic progress, a hunger that was being ignored by Suresh Kalmadi, Raja and the others of that sort.

Second, nothing of any consequence has happened, on the economic front.

Third, only an inclusive society can maximise its opportunities. The Mohan Bhagwat- RSS society is not an inclusive society.

Fourth, the slippage has started. People are no longer going ga-ga about this ministry.

Think about the portent of these signs.

 

[Nilgiri]

I am not - if that remark was intended for me - brushing the problems under the carpet and claiming that they don't exist. It isn't clear how you look at things, but it might seem to some that my role has been the exact opposite. And that is what is disliked by the Shining India shills.

Nope not directed at you personally. Just Congress party philosophy as a whole. You having relegated them to the rubbish bin as well means I support your position on that front.

First, Modi and his government came to power because of the hunger of the lower middle classes for more.economic progress, a hunger that was being ignored by Suresh Kalmadi, Raja and the others of that sort.

Sure. In fact I would go one further. The votes mostly came from the low income (poor). Not the desperately poor (who now are the minority - fewer than 20% refer to: China’s middle class surges, while India’s lags behind | Pew Research Center

The low income want to become middle class basically. They are aspirational folk and this transition will be what dictates the success of India since they number from 70 - 80% of India.

Second, nothing of any consequence has happened, on the economic front.

Lets give the Modi govt one full term first. We gave Congress around 85% of India's modern history after all...and they squandered it royally.

Things are happening behind the scenes that will take some time to materialise fully:

#Modi1: How the PM dismantled the transfer-posting industry

Third, only an inclusive society can maximise its opportunities. The Mohan Bhagwat- RSS society is not an inclusive society.

No party in India practices inclusiveness....the ones that preach it at convenient times are mostly double faced crooks.

It is quite external to the realm of Indian politics....so we must strive to allow whoever delivers pragmatic results that improve livelihoods by growing the economy before anything else....and trust that the inclusiveness comes from the Indian people on the whole itself. Judging from history, it is a safe bet. Once development is at a better level and education has permeated more among people, then we can worry about fine tuning and controlling the fringe elements on all sides if they even still exist in any appreciable way. Remoras attaching onto the Shark that is BJP should not concern us all that much....it is only natural given the magnitude of what they are trying to accomplish.

Fourth, the slippage has started. People are no longer going ga-ga about this ministry.

It is inevitable given the mandate and the expectation. The weight of Indian bureaucracy is like swimming against a massive current..combine this with greater state control needed by NDA for overall federal reform via the RS...and you see why the options are still somewhat limited now. The litmus test will be the Bihar elections and later the UP elections....anything more (say Assam) will be extra icing on the cake.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It is frustrating that you seem to be saying the identical things that I am, but that we are cautiously probing each other's positions due to the surcharged atmosphere in this forum.

Nope not directed at you personally. Just Congress party philosophy as a whole. You having relegated them to the rubbish bin as well means I support your position on that front.

The Congress should have been surgically excised thirty years ago, in the 1980s.

Sure. In fact I would go one further. The votes mostly came from the low income (poor). Not the desperately poor (who now are the minority - fewer than 20% refer to: China’s middle class surges, while India’s lags behind | Pew Research Center

The low income want to become middle class basically. They are aspirational folk and this transition will be what dictates the success of India since they number from 70 - 80% of India.

Completely concur, this is Jhumri-Tilaiya moving to Ranchi, aspirational, looking forward to the house purchase, to a very nice motor-cycle, or an entry-level or second level car, or exotic holidays, or the life-style they see on TV, or money to burn in malls, all coupled with a social sensitivity still at the village and small-town level, still biased, if not outright bigoted, still superstitious in the extreme.

Lets give the Modi govt one full term first. We gave Congress around 85% of India's modern history after all...and they squandered it royally.

Sure. He should get his chance.

But not at the cost of alienating an entire layer of our society. It is that part that I object to.

Things are happening behind the scenes that will take some time to materialise fully:

#Modi1: How the PM dismantled the transfer-posting industry

That is fine, good luck to him. Does that give him latitude to turn a blind eye to the running amok of his own party, or to pretend that ghastly atrocities are not taking place under his nose?

No party in India practices inclusiveness....the ones that preach it at convenient times are mostly double faced crooks

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that we let the matter ride? Nobody does the right thing, why ask for it now?

I can't agree.

It is quite external to the realm of Indian politics....so we must strive to allow whoever delivers pragmatic results that improve livelihoods by growing the economy before anything else....and trust that the inclusiveness comes from the Indian people on the whole itself. Judging from history, it is a safe bet. Once development is at a better level and education has permeated more among people, then we can worry about fine tuning and controlling the fringe elements on all sides if they even still exist in any appreciable way. Remoras attaching onto the Shark that is BJP should not concern us all that much....it is only natural given the magnitude of what they are trying to accomplish.

Basically the "few eggs to make an omelette" argument. One I disagree with passionately. making the trains run on time, as Mussolini promised to, is not sufficient contribution to allow misgovernment. The trains are supposed to run on time; that is the default. The leadership is supposed to protect all sections of the population. That is also a default, and it is one that we are reduced to pleading for.

You talked about education once development has been improved. What is the connection, why can't education be taken up immediately? Why can't toilets be built faster? Why can't public distribution of food be improved now, not later? Why are mid-day meals being messed around with, due to arcane vegetarian reasons?

There are a thousand one things which do not need to happen, necessarily, in order to smooth the path of development; they are happening, and neither Modi, nor his political front-line, the ministers, is saying a single word of sincere condemnation, or trying to pull up those individuals who have wreaked the havoc, or gone over to the location and supported the wrong-doers publicly.

It is inevitable given the mandate and the expectation. The weight of Indian bureaucracy is like swimming against a massive current..combine this with greater state control needed by NDA for overall federal reform via the RS...and you see why the options are still somewhat limited now. The litmus test will be the Bihar elections and later the UP elections....anything more (say Assam) will be extra icing on the cake.

All this is very well.

I worry that things may not turn rosy the way you and other optimistic commentators hope will turn out. What then?

 

[vsdoc]

Interesting discussion.

I would give Modi ji at least two terms.

The first to pick up the pieces that matter and sweep out those that just cause clutter (hint .....).

The second to really ring in his vision.

Cheers, Doc

You are, in all honesty, (and I don't mean offense) the most intolerant person I have met to date on any online forum so far.

That is surprising considering the spectrum I have seen. Of all religions and without.

Not one is so allergic to being receptive to a different opinion as you have portrayed time and again.

You should visit the WAB some time then.

There are a gaggle of them there. A particularly virulent bong (American coconut from Seattle) and an assami turd (Bangalore residing potato - brown on the outside and yellow inside). Among other gems.

Joe is at least old school. And I like him for that, and that alone. Besides the fact that I could never be disrespectful of someone who is my dad's generation.

There are two extremes of the political and social discourse in India today, and they are both the fringe. One fringe cries louder when the central pendulum moves its way, that's all.

The nation resides in the center, just left or right.

 

[Josef K]

You should visit the WAB some time then

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a WAB?

 

[vsdoc]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a WAB?

Some place you would have less of a chance in than a snowflake in hell.

 

[Styx]

WAB

what is, linkage ?