Indian PM elections - 2019 [News and gossips]

[T90TankGuy]

I don’t understand why BJP is struggling? Modi has brought electricity for all, hygiene for all, roads, ports, bridges, development, banking, laws, etc. How much more do the voters want???

Probably because if you lived in India you would know most of that is not true!!!
Lets take things one by one .
Hygiene - while he charged us a cest on every purchase we make in the name of swatch bharat , the basic necessity of dustbins at every corner were not put in in most cities till mid last year three years into his term . Again these were done by the municipality and NGO working together. Cleaning of these dustbins also was not a priority .
Public Toilets (in cities) were made with much fanfare , but were not connected to sewage systems , or had running water , the result ? they were not usable withen a week. As for rural toilets , Yes they were made, but it also involved a lot of corruption on the ground.
Most road statics put out are involving widening of old roads and re tarring of old ones. only about 30% of new roads were constructed. So also with bridges .
Development? heard a lot about smart cities? can you now show me one ???
The banking sector is the most hit , 2016 brought about a lack of trust in the banks and the currency , which has effected the informal economy to a huge extent .
Laws ... what can i say we have been passing them since independence yet its their enforcement which leads a lot to be desired.
I could go on but its a waste of time for those who only see and hear what they wish too.

@Joe Shearer @padamchen @Nilgiri

 

[Nilgiri]

So we miss this rich rural cultural tapestry and I envy you man. The rustic roots. And the culture.

This...its what I wish for everyone in the end really. Parsis deserve to have it...and much much more. Everyone else (non parsi, and non-jew till recently) more or less has gotten fat and lazy and used to theirs. So in the end I "get" where lot of your "issues" come from ...simply because its something I shudder at even starting to thinkif I had no large cultural hub of my own....much less having a 1000+ long year history of being stripped of it.

Heck 1000 years ago, the cholas (arguably our greatest dynasty) were at their prime, off invading/civilising foreign shores even. A lot of what they did sustained us thru the darker times that came later....there was no fell swoop for us....in the end I think thats why we stick doggedly to our Saivite version of the larger religion....we understand that in the hills/mountains lies our dogged resistance in the end when our rivers and plains have been invaded...and that if we persist, it shall pass. Wish you guys had the same...but you were at fairly open crossroads rather than the end of a peninsula (with whole lot of other stuff in the way as a buffer). Such is fate, such shall be the redemption too though.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Heh..why you think I chose name "Nilgiri" here? Yes I have been plenty of times...having been born in "the" city right at its lower reaches (Coimbatore).

My dad himself was born right in a hamlet inside the Nilgiris (his dad RIP, worked at the hydro power company...and was a maintenance tech back then in newly independent India).

The presence of Nepalis/Gurkhas in the area predates ole Sam retiring there of course (though he helped augment it notably)...given the DSSC at wellington etc.

For example my mom told me long while back a few times...about the Gurkha night watchman of her neighbourhood (in Coimbatore itself) while she was growing up. He was veteran of all the wars, last one under Sam of course...and simply wanted to keep doing something/stay active after his own retirement...and mom always said nepali folk do not have any fear to do such job in the dead of night....clanking their batons on gate as they go by so you know they were keeping you safe....much like they did to keep the country safe.

The city has now grown to all proportions and squalor that I suppose you can't find the gentle cool presence of such people that much anymore....it was an earlier, simpler time.

About Sam, its little known how much his wife helped the schools and children in the area....and they were quite affectionate to the tribes that lived in the area too. A wizened old tribal "Sundakai" travelling-seller (its a kind of bitter berry used in sambhar etc) told me while he was resting on verandah (of that same house where my mom grew up) ....while my grandma went to find a proper measure, unlike what the gent had.... to bargain with...(and I was just a curious child on holiday)...that Sam-saab was a hero like no other in every sense....as much as I could understand from his heavy tribal dialect...and of course I didnt really know who Sam-Saab was till I asked my dad about it later.

These tribal folks dont do that kind of stuff anymore (lug produce from the hills to the city on their back)...they have long moved onto better less back breaking jobs (my grandpa always would kinda scold my grandma not to bargain with these folks too harshly) and even increasingly given up being proper tribals in first place ....so its another era thats gone in that sense too.

Anyway thats my nostalgic rant for the day. You weeded one out of me doc, well done.

@Joe Shearer @Vibrio (I know you dont like being tagged anymore, but you will enjoy this one) @jbgt90 @nair

For my own connections with your Kongu-nadu, look up the foundation stone of the Guild of Service building on Racecourse Road in Coimbatore (if it's still standing). My grand-dad was the first Bengali in the forest service in south India.

Probably because if you lived in India you would know most of that is not true!!!
Lets take things one by one .
Hygiene - while he charged us a cest on every purchase we make in the name of swatch bharat , the basic necessity of dustbins at every corner were not put in in most cities till mid last year three years into his term . Again these were done by the municipality and NGO working together. Cleaning of these dustbins also was not a priority .
Public Toilets (in cities) were made with much fanfare , but were not connected to sewage systems , or had running water , the result ? they were not usable withen a week. As for rural toilets , Yes they were made, but it also involved a lot of corruption on the ground.
Most road statics put out are involving widening of old roads and re tarring of old ones. only about 30% of new roads were constructed. So also with bridges .
Development? heard a lot about smart cities? can you now show me one ???
The banking sector is the most hit , 2016 brought about a lack of trust in the banks and the currency , which has effected the informal economy to a huge extent .
Laws ... what can i say we have been passing them since independence yet its their enforcement which leads a lot to be desired.
I could go on but its a waste of time for those who only see and hear what they wish too.

@Joe Shearer @padamchen @Nilgiri

Bliss to have you back, and that too with an unusually hard-hitting post.

BTW, all the dustbins have disappeared in Alwal; all the drains are steadily clogging up with mainly plastic waste.

 

[Nilgiri]

Probably because if you lived in India you would know most of that is not true!!!
Lets take things one by one .
Hygiene - while he charged us a cest on every purchase we make in the name of swatch bharat , the basic necessity of dustbins at every corner were not put in in most cities till mid last year three years into his term . Again these were done by the municipality and NGO working together. Cleaning of these dustbins also was not a priority .
Public Toilets (in cities) were made with much fanfare , but were not connected to sewage systems , or had running water , the result ? they were not usable withen a week. As for rural toilets , Yes they were made, but it also involved a lot of corruption on the ground.
Most road statics put out are involving widening of old roads and re tarring of old ones. only about 30% of new roads were constructed. So also with bridges .
Development? heard a lot about smart cities? can you now show me one ???
The banking sector is the most hit , 2016 brought about a lack of trust in the banks and the currency , which has effected the informal economy to a huge extent .
Laws ... what can i say we have been passing them since independence yet its their enforcement which leads a lot to be desired.
I could go on but its a waste of time for those who only see and hear what they wish too.

@Joe Shearer @padamchen @Nilgiri

You are also a bit too harsh the other way ...I agree the glossy brochures are not delivered "as is"...but there is some delivery on certain key things as acknowledged by UNESCO etc (say swacch bharat)....its not a zero ...sometihng halfway (and I will take that over zero always).

Look a lot of this stuff needs to be even tried at the scale it is...to then weed out what the actual sticky issues are....the last 10 year admin did not even try....it just tinkered and just hoped hot money flow (laundered in various ways to subsidies rather than capital spending) would be enough to tide over enough (however formal, informal stuff "grew" in the end...whatever long term fiscal danger/dependency was). I still see BJP as lesser of two evils here by far....simply because I always pick hard investment over immediate sugary payoff (though trust me BJP does plenty of the later too...just lot less % wise in the outlays - helped somewhat now by aadar+ PDS + bank account + GST). Delivery % wise (as it all sums up in ppls minds w.r.t relevance)...thats what the 2019 vote will show in the end....I say lets wait and see. Fairly confident Modi wins though nowhere close to 2014 style....he will need to get a broader coalition.

 

[padamchen]

This...its what I wish for everyone in the end really. Parsis deserve to have it...and much much more. Everyone else (non parsi, and non-jew till recently) more or less has gotten fat and lazy and used to theirs. So in the end I "get" where lot of your "issues" come from ...simply because its something I shudder at even starting to thinkif I had no large cultural hub of my own....much less having a 1000+ long year history of being stripped of it.

Heck 1000 years ago, the cholas (arguably our greatest dynasty) were at their prime, off invading/civilising foreign shores even. A lot of what they did sustained us thru the darker times that came later....there was no fell swoop for us....in the end I think thats why we stick doggedly to our Saivite version of the larger religion....we understand that in the hills/mountains lies our dogged resistance in the end when our rivers and plains have been invaded...and that if we persist, it shall pass. Wish you guys had the same...but you were at fairly open crossroads rather than the end of a peninsula (with whole lot of other stuff in the way as a buffer). Such is fate, such shall be the redemption too though.

A good point.

It's in the mountains of the Khorasan that the Zoroastrians held out in for 300 years, made their last stand, till it became clear we were going to get swamped.

By our own blood.

More than the Arabs, THAT is the angst of most of us.

The Arabs, for all the racial abuse the poor chaps get from both sides, came, did their stuff, and went. Inside less than 50 years (a generation max 2). And let's face it ... historically and racially there was never any love lost with the Arab tribes. @I.R.A

It's why Hindu Muslim, India Pakistan is very close to home for us, beyond blood or faith. Or soil.

Cheers, Doc

 

[padamchen]

This...its what I wish for everyone in the end really. Parsis deserve to have it...and much much more. Everyone else (non parsi, and non-jew till recently) more or less has gotten fat and lazy and used to theirs. So in the end I "get" where lot of your "issues" come from ...simply because its something I shudder at even starting to thinkif I had no large cultural hub of my own....much less having a 1000+ long year history of being stripped of it.

Heck 1000 years ago, the cholas (arguably our greatest dynasty) were at their prime, off invading/civilising foreign shores even. A lot of what they did sustained us thru the darker times that came later....there was no fell swoop for us....in the end I think thats why we stick doggedly to our Saivite version of the larger religion....we understand that in the hills/mountains lies our dogged resistance in the end when our rivers and plains have been invaded...and that if we persist, it shall pass. Wish you guys had the same...but you were at fairly open crossroads rather than the end of a peninsula (with whole lot of other stuff in the way as a buffer). Such is fate, such shall be the redemption too though.

It's not envy in a bad way. It's respect. And a feeling of cross cultural cross racial brotherhood of doing our bit where we can still make a difference.

I'll tell you a small anecdote. I've maybe shared the photo too here or the other forum. Can't remember now.

When I was warring with the right wingers, in the most heated days. Real life was also going on.

A real world where I have a group of close cycling buddies. Most Hindus, a couple of Indian Muslims, a Parsi (a few others who are senior ex racers too, national/Asian champs), and a Turk!

We went for a morning ride one day to an ancient temple, which is surrounded by a lake. There's a legendary local hill climb on the way up which we wanted to try our legs and hearts out at. Short and very sharp. The kind you can explode and go all in on.

We reach the top. It's mind boggling pretty picture postcard. Shady canopy of tall trees. Small chai and kanda bhaji wadapav poha misal stalls. Little puppies playing around. Mother lazing in the sun filtering in through the leaves, one eye open. Little kittens all around the temple outreach perimeter where we take off our shies, wash up, etc.

We park our bikes and some of the more religious/curious riders go in. It's huge. And it's ancient stone. And I'm walking around with them around the various rooms and idols and paintings of old saints. And I'm marveling at the culture and history seeped into the rock and the raw floor on which we modern day Indian cyclist are walking in the present day.

It was a moving, humbling and chastising experience.

Then some langots started again, and reality came crashing down online a few days (hours? Lol) later.

Cheers, Doc

 

[T90TankGuy]

You are also a bit too harsh the other way ...I agree the glossy brochures are not delivered "as is"...but there is some delivery on certain key things as acknowledged by UNESCO etc (say swacch bharat)....its not a zero ...sometihng halfway (and I will take that over zero always).

Look a lot of this stuff needs to be even tried at the scale it is...to then weed out what the actual sticky issues are....the last 10 year admin did not even try....it just tinkered and just hoped hot money flow (laundered in various ways to subsidies rather than capital spending) would be enough to tide over enough (however formal, informal stuff "grew" in the end...whatever long term fiscal danger/dependency was). I still see BJP as lesser of two evils here by far....simply because I always pick hard investment over immediate sugary payoff (though trust me BJP does plenty of the later too...just lot less % wise in the outlays - helped somewhat now by aadar+ PDS + bank account + GST). Delivery % wise (as it all sums up in ppls minds w.r.t relevance)...thats what the 2019 vote will show in the end....I say lets wait and see. Fairly confident Modi wins though nowhere close to 2014 style....he will need to get a broader coalition.

My dearest friend , i have long conversations about you with @Joe Shearer , Would love to meet you one day and pick that brain of your
Coming to the point, what was promised and delivered are poles apart , i fear the most damage was done to the social fabric of India ,
We have never been so divided along the north south , Hindu Muslim and caste basis . this govt and its ilks have done it just to get power. I could ramble on but unfortunately i have to appear in court .

 

[padamchen]

My dearest friend , i have long conversations about you with @Joe Shearer , Would love to meet you one day and pick that brain of your
Coming to the point, what was promised and delivered are poles apart , i fear the most damage was done to the social fabric of India ,
We have never been so divided along the north south , Hindu Muslim and caste basis . this govt and its ilks have done it just to get power. I could ramble on but unfortunately i have to appear in court .

Bang on.

Economically, it's only money. We'll make it back.

In term of 5 years, it's only time. For a civilization that spans over 5000 years.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Nilgiri]

but unfortunately i have to appear in court .

now thats a mic drop.... heh

 

[T90TankGuy]

now thats a mic drop.... heh

Well as i am representing the GOI , No issues!!!

 

[Sam.]

Probably because if you lived in India you would know most of that is not true!!!
Lets take things one by one .
Hygiene - while he charged us a cest on every purchase we make in the name of swatch bharat , the basic necessity of dustbins at every corner were not put in in most cities till mid last year three years into his term . Again these were done by the municipality and NGO working together. Cleaning of these dustbins also was not a priority .
Public Toilets (in cities) were made with much fanfare , but were not connected to sewage systems , or had running water , the result ? they were not usable withen a week. As for rural toilets , Yes they were made, but it also involved a lot of corruption on the ground.
Most road statics put out are involving widening of old roads and re tarring of old ones. only about 30% of new roads were constructed. So also with bridges .
Development? heard a lot about smart cities? can you now show me one ???
The banking sector is the most hit , 2016 brought about a lack of trust in the banks and the currency , which has effected the informal economy to a huge extent .
Laws ... what can i say we have been passing them since independence yet its their enforcement which leads a lot to be desired.
I could go on but its a waste of time for those who only see and hear what they wish too.

@Joe Shearer @padamchen @Nilgiri

Agree 100 % and we should bring those arguments in 2019 election to get to the limelight.

My dearest friend , i have long conversations about you with @Joe Shearer , Would love to meet you one day and pick that brain of your
Coming to the point, what was promised and delivered are poles apart , i fear the most damage was done to the social fabric of India ,
We have never been so divided along the north south , Hindu Muslim and caste basis . this govt and its ilks have done it just to get power. I could ramble on but unfortunately i have to appear in court .

Strongly disagree and i was attendant of few events that happened and saw how Congress used divisive politics while pretending otherwise.

The divide is always there it's just getting highlighted after 2014 and hence my discontent with Congress strategist for dividing Indian people. (Nor that BJP is any saint perhaps the same on opposite spectrum)

@Nilgiri @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer @padamchen @Soumitra

 

[Joe Shearer]

Agree 100 % and we should bring those arguments in 2019 election to get to the limelight.


Strongly disagree and i was attendant of few events that happened and saw how Congress used divisive politics while pretending otherwise.

The divide is always there it's just getting highlighted after 2014 and hence my discontent with Congress strategist for dividing Indian people. (Nor that BJP is any saint perhaps the same on opposite spectrum)

@Nilgiri @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer @padamchen

I wholly disagree with you, and have a lot in common with @jbgt90, but we do not have identical positions. Is there some way to take this discussion elsewhere?

@Sam. , I have altered your tag-list and apologise, but want to keep it that way, unless you insist on changing it back; I will accept that, but with unhappiness.

Agree 100 % and we should bring those arguments in 2019 election to get to the limelight.


Strongly disagree and i was attendant of few events that happened and saw how Congress used divisive politics while pretending otherwise.

The divide is always there it's just getting highlighted after 2014 and hence my discontent with Congress strategist for dividing Indian people. (Nor that BJP is any saint perhaps the same on opposite spectrum)

@Nilgiri @jbgt90 @Joe Shearer @padamchen @Soumitra

Where I am coming from is that I have seen the Congress at its most corrupt and cynically opposed to the people and the interests of the people, I have seen the Sangh Parivar dividing India socially and politically, for the same objective as the Congress, to gain power, and I have seen the Communists trying to unite people socially and politically, but dividing them along the lines of class. So @jbgt90 and I agree on certain broad issues, very specifically on the damage caused by the incompetence of the present governments at the centre and several of the states, but there are other issues on which we disagree. Perhaps it may turn out to be the same thing with regard to your position.

 

[ranjeet]

Here is a bouncer for caste based poliltics....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1082202717932609542

Welcome back @jbgt90

 

[Sam.]

I wholly disagree with you, and have a lot in common with @jbgt90, but we do not have identical positions. Is there some way to take this discussion elsewhere?

@Sam. , I have altered your tag-list and apologise, but want to keep it that way, unless you insist on changing it back; I will accept that, but with unhappiness.



Where I am coming from is that I have seen the Congress at its most corrupt and cynically opposed to the people and the interests of the people, I have seen the Sangh Parivar dividing India socially and politically, for the same objective as the Congress, to gain power, and I have seen the Communists trying to unite people socially and politically, but dividing them along the lines of class. So @jbgt90 and I agree on certain broad issues, very specifically on the damage caused by the incompetence of the present governments at the centre and several of the states, but there are other issues on which we disagree. Perhaps it may turn out to be the same thing with regard to your position.

I understand your point of not including the fifth member but sir doesn't matter how much fallacy he may bring to the conversation but we have to understand there are tons of people with that mindset and if we ignore them then fifth element is in the making.

To be honest sir i see many downsides of BJP

• Association with some fringes
  
• Not able to deliver for farmers and poll promises (This is personal to me)
• Mishandling of Kashmir situation and making army achievement as political gains
• Study of after effects and poor implementation of demonetization
• Infrastructure sector didn't pick up much growth
  
• No action on Corrupt politicians
• Not able to solve core issues ( River linking , education, job creation)

Do you wish to take this discussion out of the forum or i misunderstood sir?

 

[T90TankGuy]

Here is a bouncer for caste based poliltics....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1082202717932609542

Welcome back @jbgt90

@ranjeet Bhai!!!!