Indian Navy to purchase 16 US multi-role choppers for $1 bn

[Abingdonboy]

are you telling me spares are supplied for free ??

Of course not, which is why I stated the $1 billion price tag includes the cost of spares.

 

[Rikbo]

are you telling me spares are supplied for free ??

The 1 billion dollar price tag is the total program cost. It includes spares, logistics, training, and NRE ((non-recurring engineering) and more. As with most programs, the customer will have requirements that an aircraft can immediately meet and others that require engineering development and test. An example is installing the FLASH sonar in place of the HELRAS on the S-70B for India. There are a significant number of development items for this program. Sikorsky will typically provide a multi-year warranty on the entire aircraft including all mission and avionics equipment. During that time, all defects and non-compliances must be resolved at no cost to the customer. All this and more goes into that $1 billion price tag you see. It is much, much more than just that of the aircraft themselves.

 

[The Great One]

@Rikbo
Based on wiki specs, the EC725 seems faar superior (mostly in physical specs) to the Sea-Hawk and maybe even cheaper. Can you shed some light on this.

 

[Abingdonboy]

@Rikbo
Based on wiki specs, the EC725 seems faar superior (mostly in physical specs) to the Sea-Hawk and maybe even cheaper. Can you shed some light on this.

The EC-725 is in the 12 ton weight class, the S-70 is in the 10 ton weight class of course the former will have a larger volume- so does the Chinnok, that doesn't mean it is automatically superior. Electronics are what makes an ASW helo truly deadly and here the S-70B excels.

Only the larger IN vessels would have enough hanger space to house the EC-725 whereas all the IN vessels that currently operate the Sea King would be able to support the S-70B.

Incidentally the IN has a separate requirement for 12 ton helos for their LHD/LPD.

 

[The Great One]

The EC-725 is in the 12 ton weight class, the S-70 is in the 10 ton weight class of course the former will have a larger volume- so does the Chinnok, that doesn't mean it is automatically superior. Electronics are what makes an ASW helo truly deadly and here the S-70B excels.

Only the larger IN vessels would have enough hanger space to house the EC-725 whereas all the IN vessels that currently operate the Sea King would be able to support the S-70B.

Incidentally the IN has a separate requirement for 12 ton helos for their LHD/LPD.

The 'follow on tender' {} for 123 choppers is expected to be for 12 ton helos and the link he provided said that Sirosky would offer the S-70B again (and not S-92), hence my comparison and query about the two choppers.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The 'follow on tender' {} for 123 choppers is expected to be for 12 ton helos and the link he provided said that Sirosky would offer the S-70B again (and not S-92), hence my comparison and query about the two choppers.

Nope, there is some confusion in the media about that. There are two separate tenders ongoing- one for 100+ 10 ton ASW helos and a separate tender for 12 ton NMRHs for the IN's LHD/LPD for about 20-30 units.

For the 12 ton NMRH requirement the EC-725, AW-101 and S-92/CH-148 will go head to head but this deal has not really progressed yet as the IN's LHD/LPD procurement is not exactly imminent.

 

[The Great One]

Nope, there is some confusion in the media about that. There are two separate tenders ongoing- one for 100+ 10 ton ASW helos and a separate tender for 12 ton NMRHs for the IN's LHD/LPD for about 20-30 units.

Where are you getting all this from. No tender is running as of now. NMRH is done. NUH was shot down (and rose from the ashes...............................)
As for 123 helos

Finally, in early 2013, IN issued a global RFI for more NMRH which probably went further than what most expected given that it was for 123 units , making it the largest such tender for multirole helicopters anywhere in the world. The stakes naturally are higher than ever before now.

The latest postponement of the opening of commercial bids for the initial tender however means that even if the contract were to be sewn up within this fiscal i.e 2013-14 the first helicopter cannot be delivered before 2015-16 at the earliest.

Moreover, a global RFP worth 6-8 billion U.S dollars to follow the new RFI for 123 NMRH in the 9 to 12.5-tonne maximum take-off weight (MTOW) class is likely to be issued which is attracting interest from a wider set of contenders including Lockheed Martin with its MH-60R/S (which shares its airframe with the S-70B), Eurocopter with its EC 725 Caracal and Russian Helicopters with Kamov products and perhaps even AgustaWestland with one of the navalized variants of the AW-101 Merlin.

Saurav Jha's Blog : The Indian Navy's helicopter plans and purchases

DID which I consider the best source out there for this kind of shitt doesn't say anything about dedicated LPD helos either. Really where did you get that from?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Where are you getting all this from. No tender is running as of now. NMRH is done. NUH was shot down (and rose from the ashes...............................)
As for 123 helos

Saurav Jha's Blog : The Indian Navy's helicopter plans and purchases

DID which I consider the best source out there for this kind of shitt doesn't say anything about dedicated LPD helos either. Really where did you get that from?

This is what has been reported over the years and what I have heard from a trustworthy source of mine.

Think about it, it makes no sense for the 12 ton EC-725 to be going against the 10 ton S-70B especially when most IN vessels (barring the beastly carriers, destroyers and frigates) can't operate the large EC-725 which is known as a troop hauler and not an ASW helo and yet we know the EC-725 is on offer to the IN and the IN is looking at it:

Airbus Helicopters: EC725 for Indian Navy » Indian Defence Review

..:: India Strategic ::. Defence Industry: Eurocopter’s EC725 for Indian Navy’s 120 Naval Multi Role Helicopters programme

We also know the IN is looking to procure 4-6 LHD/LPD by the end of this decade and thus will be requiring a fleet of helos to operate from them to support amphibious operations, their S-70Bs who are optimised for ASW roles and even in a utility role are not suited for hauling large amounts of marine infantry hence the IN is looking at larger 12 ton helos for such roles.

 

[The Great One]

Think about it, it makes no sense for the 12 ton EC-725 to be going against the 10 ton S-70B especially when most IN vessels (barring the beastly carriers, destroyers and frigates) can't operate the large EC-725 which is known as a troop hauler and not an ASW helo and yet we know the EC-725 is on offer to the IN and the IN is looking at it:

RFI clearly states 9-12.5 tons. I don't see whats the problem. As for hangar size, thats your opinion, not IN's.

Airbus Helicopters: EC725 for Indian Navy » Indian Defence Review

..:: India Strategic ::. Defence Industry: Eurocopter’s EC725 for Indian Navy’s 120 Naval Multi Role Helicopters programme

We also know the IN is looking to procure 4-6 LHD/LPD by the end of this decade and thus will be requiring a fleet of helos to operate from them to support amphibious operations, their S-70Bs who are optimised for ASW roles and even in a utility role are not suited for hauling large amounts of marine infantry hence the IN is looking at larger 12 tone helos for such roles.

• Delhi Class destroyers can carry 2 helicopters
• Kolkata Class frigates can carry 2 helicopters
• Shivalik, Betwa, and Godavari Class frigates can carry 2 helicopters
• Talwar Class frigates can carry 1 helicopter
• Offshore Patrol Vessels can carry 1 helicopter
• Landing Ship Tank (Large) can carry 2 helicopters
• INS Viraat aircraft carrier can carry 8 helicopters
• INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier can carry 12 helicopters

Thats all.
I'd think a tender for domestic production of 123 helos should cover future LPD use and since its domestic production we can easily mount further orders, if neccessary. No need for another tender. Not to mention once again your opinion only and no such tender is running, nor RFI issued.

 

[Abingdonboy]

• Delhi Class destroyers can carry 2 helicopters
• Kolkata Class frigates can carry 2 helicopters
• Shivalik, Betwa, and Godavari Class frigates can carry 2 helicopters
• Talwar Class frigates can carry 1 helicopter
• Offshore Patrol Vessels can carry 1 helicopter
• Landing Ship Tank (Large) can carry 2 helicopters
• INS Viraat aircraft carrier can carry 8 helicopters
• INS Vikramaditya aircraft carrier can carry 12 helicopters

This tells you nothing of the hanger size and ability to house a 12 ton EC-725 or AW-101, most likely most of the hangers on the destroyers and below have been designed with the dimensions of the Sea King in mind meaning the S-70B will fit just fine.

I'd think a tender for domestic production of 123 helos should cover future LPD use and since its domestic production we can easily mount further orders, if neccessary. No need for another tender. Not to mention once again your opinion only and no such tender is running, nor RFI issued.

It's not just my opinion but a fact. If you think it makes sense for the 12 ton EC-725 to be going head to head with the 10 ton S-70B for an ASW role despite the former having almost zero ASW capability and for the latter to be looked at as a troop hauler for the IN's LHD/LPD fleet when it has very limited troop carrying capacity then that is your prerogative mate but the reality will become clear sooner or later- there are two very separate requirements and thus two spirit tenders running. Right now, however, the IN is rightly focusing on their requirement for 100+ follow on ASW helos in the 10 ton class.


I also remember reading an RFI the IN issued for 12 ton helicopters that was put out a few years ago that outlined they were looking to have a helo with IFR capability to support special operations forces- this is clearly looking beyond the S-70B.


Let's agree to disagree mate

 

[wiseone2]

Of course not, which is why I stated the $1 billion price tag includes the cost of spares.

spares for how many years ??

 

[Rikbo]

@Rikbo
Based on wiki specs, the EC725 seems faar superior (mostly in physical specs) to the Sea-Hawk and maybe even cheaper. Can you shed some light on this.

If you look at the specs and capabilities it would not meet the India NSQRs (Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements) which is what was used to determine qualified candidates. The EC725 is more of a combat Search and Rescue bird. India's requirement was for a platform that could perform both Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW). That includes capabilities like being able to use frigates as a launching platform (requiring folding blades), Sonar, and Anti-Ship missiles like the Penguin or MBDA Matra. So, the short answer is, regardless of cost, it could not meet the mission requirements so it was a non-candidate.

 

[The Great One]

If you look at the specs and capabilities it would not meet the India NSQRs (Naval Staff Qualitative Requirements) which is what was used to determine qualified candidates. The EC725 is more of a combat Search and Rescue bird. India's requirement was for a platform that could perform both Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) and Anti-Surface Warfare (ASuW). That includes capabilities like being able to use frigates as a launching platform (requiring folding blades), Sonar, and Anti-Ship missiles like the Penguin or MBDA Matra. So, the short answer is, regardless of cost, it could not meet the mission requirements so it was a non-candidate.

This is funny. Only now that I see the Eurocopter doesn't have a single ASW/ASuW weapon integrated with it yet all the write-ups were trying to present it as the God of multirole. Thanks for your reply. Also did the RFI for 123 helos also have the same req as the one for the old tender?

 

[Rikbo]

This is funny. Only now that I see the Eurocopter doesn't have a single ASW/ASuW weapon integrated with it yet all the write-ups were trying to present it as the God of multirole. Thanks for your reply. Also did the RFI for 123 helos also have the same req as the one for the old tender?

You can take almost any platform and turn it into something it was not originally designed for. Of course cost and schedule would likely make it prohibitive. I think the weight and size were the really big issues here. Have not yet seen the new RFI.

 

[Rikbo]

For those interested in these things, the Official model designation of the Sikorsky MRH model will be known as the S-70B-7. This indicates the 7th model variation of S-70B aircraft which are in service with a variety of international navies. Just shows how good and experienced Sikorsky is at customizing an aircraft to meet the customers need. Can't wait for the next RFP for 120 aircraft to come out. Should be a bunch of contenders. Gonna be interesting! Despite what I have read, Sikorsky should have the inside track on winning that bid since the 70B should be able to fill all the required roles and the advantage for the Indian Navy having all one basic model aircraft to fill all its naval needs is enormous.