Indian Navy pilots to train in Russia for Gorshkov operations

[Yogi]

Indian Navy pilots to train in Russia for Gorshkov operations

Preparing to induct Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, the
Indian Navy has sent a batch of ten pilots to Russia for training
to land and take-off fighter aircraft from the 44,500 tonne warship.

The Navy is going to induct the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier now rechristened INS
Vikramaditya on November 16 at the Sevmash shipyard in
Russia and it is expected to reach India by January-end
next year.

10 Navy pilots have been sent to Russia for training in landing and take-off from aircraft carriers and they will practise on the shore-based test facilities provided by the Russian Government, Navy officials said here.

The officials will undergo training for three to four months and would be ready for
operating from the aircraft carrier by the time INS Vikramaditya reaches its bases in Karwar in Karnataka, they said.

The Navy has already procured 21 MiG 29K maritime combat aircraft and is expected to induct 24 more such aircraft in
the next couple of years, they said.

The MiG 29Ks and the Admiral Gorshkov were ordered together by India for the aircraft carrier in 2004 but the
Gorshkov has been delayed by over five years and has seen its cost getting doubled to USD 2.3 billion in this time-period.

The induction of Gorshkov will see the Navy having two operational carriers, including INS Viraat. India is also manufacturing its first
indigenous aircraft carrier in Cochin which is likely to be operational by 2018.

www.idrw.org/?p=28797

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is nothing special, just a fresh batch of pilots as at least 40 more IN fighter jocks have already been trained in Russia and the US. Perhaps this is the last batch of IN pilots that will be sent to Russia though with the SBTF becoming operational in Goa very soon and the Viky coming to India- there's simply no need to send them abroad for such training.

 

[janon]

This is nothing special, just a fresh batch of pilots as at least 40 more IN fighter jocks have already been trained in Russia and the US. Perhaps this is the last batch of IN pilots that will be sent to Russia though with the SBTF becoming operational in Goa very soon and the Viky coming to India- there's simply no need to send them abroad for such training.

At this stage, there is. The mig-29K is a completely new platform for the IN, and who better to learn to fly it from than the developers? Even if we have a SBTF, we would first need a pool of qualified instructors, and hopefully a batch of pilots who are comfortable with operating this platform. After all, it is a complex, 4.5 gen aircraft that has to be flown from a moving airbase. It is a very complex operation, and we will need all the help we can to develop those skills.

After we have a pool of qualified pilots and trainers, we won't need the Russians. But that is some time away.

The IN has done remarkably well in training their aviators while awaiting the carrier and the aircrafts, which were delayed for reasons beyond their control. Earlier they sent their pilots to the US to master arrested landings on the USN's hawks/goshawks, and now they are working with the Russians to learn the ins and outs of the new platform in Russia, before the carrier arrives in India. This approach ensures that by the time the carrier and its air complement arrives in India, there will be an eager batch of experienced aviators ready to roll.

I wish the IAF would display such foresight, with its future platforms. Send its instructors to france to get qualified on the Rafale while they wait for the bureaucracy to run its course. Get three or four LCAs in the current form, and learn the machine while waiting for the program to achieve maturity. Send them to TACDE and develop doctrines and tactics now, instead of waiting for IOC2/FOC. SO that by the time the rafales and LCAs arrive, the can start squadron service immediately, without another few years of gestation. I fail to see why the IAF has not, at the very least, sent a few pilots and instructors to France to familiarize themselves with and get qualified on the Rafale.

 

[Abingdonboy]

At this stage, there is. The mig-29K is a completely new platform for the IN, and who better to learn to fly it from than the developers? Even if we have a SBTF, we would first need a pool of qualified instructors, and hopefully a batch of pilots who are comfortable with operating this platform. After all, it is a complex, 4.5 gen aircraft that has to be flown from a moving airbase. It is a very complex operation, and we will need all the help we can to develop those skills.

After we have a pool of qualified pilots and trainers, we won't need the Russians. But that is some time away.

The IN has done remarkably well in training their aviators while awaiting the carrier and the aircrafts, which were delayed for reasons beyond their control. Earlier they sent their pilots to the US to master arrested landings on the USN's hawks/goshawks, and now they are working with the Russians to learn the ins and outs of the new platform in Russia, before the carrier arrives in India. This approach ensures that by the time the carrier and its air complement arrives in India, there will be an eager batch of experienced aviators ready to roll.

I wish the IAF would display such foresight, with its future platforms. Send its instructors to france to get qualified on the Rafale while they wait for the bureaucracy to run its course. Get three or four LCAs in the current form, and learn the machine while waiting for the program to achieve maturity. Send them to TACDE and develop doctrines and tactics now, instead of waiting for IOC2/FOC. SO that by the time the rafales and LCAs arrive, the can start squadron service immediately, without another few years of gestation. I fail to see why the IAF has not, at the very least, sent a few pilots and instructors to France to familiarize themselves with and get qualified on the Rafale.

Actually the IN already has qualified instructors for the MIG-29K, remember they got the first lot of Ks back in Feb 2010 (with the pilots already having been familiar with this machine at that point) after which the K/KUB were put through an exhaustive certification process in the IFTU with IN aviators.


The ONLY thing holding the IN back on the training front right now is the lack of a SBTF and the Viky still being in Russia, the full-mission simulators are there now, the instructors are there- the SBTF and Viky are the last pieces of the puzzle. Once the Viky is in IN hands and in India they can train their pilots on deck ops and once the SBTF is ready (imminent) then they will be able to train their pilots right from the get go on shore for carrier based ops. Then the IN has now started receiving their Hawk MK.132 AJTs so the IN's training arm looks very robust and will be entirely self-sufficient in the next 1-2 years.



Wrt the IAF and the Rafale, the IAF simply cannot do this until the ink is on the paper and the deal is done. There is still quite a few stages of scrutinising to do for the MMRCA deal and the IAF can't be seen to be jumping the gun or being prejudice. But don't fear, the IAF is a professional force, they are the ones who drew up the 36 month delivery deadline knowing full well how long it would take to get their instructors up to scratch and qualified on this bird.


The LCA can't be sent to TACDE if it hasn't even received its IOC-2 yet. Let alone their simply aren't the airframes to send to them anyway.

 

[janon]

Actually the IN already has qualified instructors for the MIG-29K, remember they got the first lot of Ks back in Feb 2010 (with the pilots already having been familiar with this machine at that point) after which the K/KUB were put through an exhaustive certification process in the IFTU with IN aviators.


The ONLY thing holding the IN back on the training front right now is the lack of a SBTF and the Viky still being in Russia, the full-mission simulators are there now, the instructors are there- the SBTF and Viky are the last pieces of the puzzle. Once the Viky is in IN hands and in India they can train their pilots on deck ops and once the SBTF is ready (imminent) then they will be able to train their pilots right from the get go on shore for carrier based ops. Then the IN has now started receiving their Hawk MK.132 AJTs so the IN's training arm looks very robust and will be entirely self-sufficient in the next 1-2 years.



Wrt the IAF and the Rafale, the IAF simply cannot do this until the ink is on the paper and the deal is done. There is still quite a few stages of scrutinising to do for the MMRCA deal and the IAF can't be seen to be jumping the gun or being prejudice. But don't fear, the IAF is a professional force, they are the ones who drew up the 36 month delivery deadline knowing full well how long it would take to get their instructors up to scratch and qualified on this bird.


The LCA can't be sent to TACDE if it hasn't even received its IOC-2 yet. Let alone their simply aren't the airframes to send to them anyway.

The SBTF is already operational, as per @Dillinger. And yes, we have a squadron of Mig-29Ks already. But operating it from the carrier, working in synergy with all the electronics and instruments on the Vik, involves a lot more than simply learning to take off and fly, for which the SBTF would be sufficient. I'm glad that they are sending at least a few pilots to Russia to familiarize themselves with that aspect, and not waiting for the ship to reach Indian shores. And even before we got a single mig, our pilots were training with the USN for arrested recovery ops, since 2006 - again, showing commendable foresight.

WRT the LCA, the lack of airframes at this stage, when so many of its operational parameters have been cleared, is precisely what I am bemoaning. They should have produced an SP-3 and SP-4 and handed them over to the IAF to familiarize themselves with it. Flying the LCA, and developing tactics for it is something they will have to do on their own, Russians or French can't help. The Rafale and Mig-29K (to a large extent) already have flight profiles and tactics developed by the manufacturing nations. The LCA is a new kid on the block. IMO they should order a couple of SPs now and play with them and use them in all the regimes they have so far been cleared for. It would cut down on teething time later. The IAF is going to have to induct and learn three very different kinds of birds in the near future, and that will be a humungous task.

 

[Dillinger]

The SBTF is already operational, as per @Dillinger. And yes, we have a squadron of Mig-29Ks already. But operating it from the carrier, working in synergy with all the electronics and instruments on the Vik, involves a lot more than simply learning to take off and fly, for which the SBTF would be sufficient. I'm glad that they are sending at least a few pilots to Russia to familiarize themselves with that aspect, and not waiting for the ship to reach Indian shores. And even before we got a single mig, our pilots were training with the USN for arrested recovery ops, since 2006 - again, showing commendable foresight.

WRT the LCA, the lack of airframes at this stage, when so many of its operational parameters have been cleared, is precisely what I am bemoaning. They should have produced an SP-3 and SP-4 and handed them over to the IAF to familiarize themselves with it. Flying the LCA, and developing tactics for it is something they will have to do on their own, Russians or French can't help. The Rafale and Mig-29K (to a large extent) already have flight profiles and tactics developed by the manufacturing nations. The LCA is a new kid on the block. IMO they should order a couple of SPs now and play with them and use them in all the regimes they have so far been cleared for. It would cut down on teething time later. The IAF is going to have to induct and learn three very different kinds of birds in the near future, and that will be a humungous task.

Training on SBTF does not equal actual carrier integration, it does prepare the pilots and ground crews for it though to a very large extent. The IN has indeed shown commendable foresight in many matters (there are various issues wrt the IN as a whole but that's part of a larger and separate discussion).

The N-LCA is a boggling issue, I still cannot make any sense out of it.

 

[janon]

...
(there are various issues wrt the IN as a whole but that's part of a larger and separate discussion).

The N-LCA is a boggling issue, I still cannot make any sense out of it.

You mean it doesn't make sense why the IN is pursuing the N-LCA, that is does not fit any operational need? Or are you saying that you can't understand why it is not progressing?

The submarine issue is what I can't make sense of, why it is that the IN, which has shown such professionalism in all aquisitions is neglecting that vital arm, and has allowed the numbers to fall so perilously. The IN seems to be doing an IAF, tendering for uber expensive P-75i when the P-75 itself is nowhere on the horizon, and constantly hankering after expensive solutions for tomorrow, ignoring the problems of today.

 

[faithfulguy]

You mean it doesn't make sense why the IN is pursuing the N-LCA, that is does not fit any operational need? Or are you saying that you can't understand why it is not progressing?

First, get the LCA ready. N-LCA would not be ready and available for its first flight for another 5 years. And after that, it would take along time to develop. If India can have N-LCA inducted by 2030, it would be ahead of expectations.

 

[janon]

First, get the LCA ready. N-LCA would not be ready and available for its first flight for another 5 years. And after that, it would take along time to develop. If India can have N-LCA inducted by 2030, it would be ahead of expectations.

N-LCA had its first flight years ago. Dont comment on issues you know zilch about.

And it had a flight a couple of days back, after a long time, during which a lot of problems were rectified. Officials commented that it was a major milestone, and would start carrier compatibility trials on the SBTF soon.

 

[Dillinger]

You mean it doesn't make sense why the IN is pursuing the N-LCA, that is does not fit any operational need? Or are you saying that you can't understand why it is not progressing?

The submarine issue is what I can't make sense of, why it is that the IN, which has shown such professionalism in all aquisitions is neglecting that vital arm, and has allowed the numbers to fall so perilously. The IN seems to be doing an IAF, tendering for uber expensive P-75i when the P-75 itself is nowhere on the horizon, and constantly hankering after expensive solutions for tomorrow, ignoring the problems of today.

Not really. The IN is very pragmatic and has kept all the core interests of its force modernization within Indian hands. It resorts to imports only where there truly isn't an option or some issue exists..so even though you see more Talwar class frigates than Shivaliks being operated it is the Shivalik's follow on ship class that gets more outlay and significance in the scheme of things. The nuclear sub program leads to a whole chain of private sector vendors for key components ensuring that the meat of the submarine program is now secured within Indian hands while concurrent foreign acquisitions do indeed occur. At the end of the day they refuse to let go of Indigenous efforts even if they opt for imports, they set up the vital facilities that other forces relegate as the job of DPSUs (ergo the Kaveri MGT is on the horizon and has gone through extensive certification in their marine gas turbine test bed facility but the actual Kaveri engine still stands 3-5 years away from utilization on an UCAV prototype).

The N-LCA is an oddity because while it will fly and do the hoops I cannot understand where it fits into the IN's force structure.

 

[janon]

@faithfulguy : Enjoy this video of the N-LCA's flight, which you "predicted" wouldn't happen for five years. (I wonder where such figures are pulled out of; which part of the body - can't be the head for sure.)

 

[janon]

Not really. The IN is very pragmatic and has kept all the core interests of its force modernization within Indian hands. It resorts to imports only where there truly isn't an option or some issue exists..so even though you see more Talwar class frigates than Shivaliks being operated it is the Shivalik's follow on ship class that gets more outlay and significance in the scheme of things. The nuclear sub program leads to a whole chain of private sector vendors for key components ensuring that the meat of the submarine program is now secured within Indian hands while concurrent foreign acquisitions do indeed occur. At the end of the day they refuse to let go of Indigenous efforts even if they opt for imports, they set up the vital facilities that other forces relegate as the job of DPSUs (ergo the Kaveri MGT is on the horizon and has gone through extensive certification in their marine gas turbine test bed facility but the actual Kaveri engine still stands 3-5 years away from utilization on an UCAV prototype).

The N-LCA is an oddity because while it will fly and do the hoops I cannot understand where it fits into the IN's force structure.

Yes I know that the navy has been quite pragmatic and modernized very efficiently - at least more so than the other services. Which is why the issue of SSKs is perplexing.

About N-LCA - it is true, that on the surface it doesn't seem to fit it anywhere, since they will have mig 29-Ks and something superior in a decade for IAC-2. However the navy seems very entusiastic about the N-LCA, and wants it to come to frution (if their public statements are to go by), so maybe they have found a way to fit it into their operational doctrine. In any case, they are far more modern than the harriers that they will fly till 2018, so it can't be a complete waste of metal (or composites). It really doesn't seem that the MoD or HAL are thrusting an unnecessary product down the throats of an unwilling navy - the impression one gets is far from it, that the navy is pressing HAL to deliver it ASAP.

The way I see it is that for one thing, as we all know, this is our only indegenous fighter, and the first attempt at building a naval fighter. Unless they succeed in it and manufacture a squadron or two and put it into operational service, they will not be able to undertake loftier ventures in future, like the N-AMCA or N-FGFA or whatever. Over the truly long term, the IN wants some self sufficiency in its fighter fleet as well, and N-LCA is the stepping stone. If not, we will forever be knocking on the doors of Boeing or LM or Dassault or the russians for our carrier air wing - which by the way, is going to be a mini air force in some time.

N-AMCA and such stuff are far away, to be realistic. For this decade and the next, the IN will have to do with migs and LCAs, and perhaps a N-MMRCA. A bird in the hand...

Another factor is of course, numbers, and cost. Small single engined LCA flying CAP, leaving the heavies to do long range strikes will make the venture more cost effective. The IAF just had a heart attack, seeing its fuel bill due to all the MKIs. IMO there is always an important role for a small, agile, multirole, single engined, fuel efficient aircraft for large air forces or large navies.

 

[MilSpec]

N-LCA had its first flight years ago. Dont comment on issues you know zilch about.

please dont deprive us of the comic relief....

 

[janon]

please dont deprive us of the comic relief....

Well I got banned for calling him faith-fuul when he made a ridiculous post, so now I am forced to go the sedate way, with no comic effects or clever puns.

BTW do you have any nuggets of info about the LCA program or N-LCA program? Anything interesting you may have heard from somebody in the know?

 

[Dillinger]

Yes I know that the navy has been quite pragmatic and modernized very efficiently - at least more so than the other services. Which is why the issue of SSKs is perplexing.

About N-LCA - it is true, that on the surface it doesn't seem to fit it anywhere, since they will have mig 29-Ks and something superior in a decade for IAC-2. However the navy seems very entusiastic about the N-LCA, and wants it to come to frution (if their public statements are to go by), so maybe they have found a way to fit it into their operational doctrine. In any case, they are far more modern than the harriers that they will fly till 2018, so it can't be a complete waste of metal (or composites). It really doesn't seem that the MoD or HAL are thrusting an unnecessary product down the throats of an unwilling navy - the impression one gets is far from it, that the navy is pressing HAL to deliver it ASAP.

The way I see it is that for one thing, as we all know, this is our only indegenous fighter, and the first attempt at building a naval fighter. Unless they succeed in it and manufacture a squadron or two and put it into operational service, they will not be able to undertake loftier ventures in future, like the N-AMCA or N-FGFA or whatever. Over the truly long term, the IN wants some self sufficiency in its fighter fleet as well, and N-LCA is the stepping stone. If not, we will forever be knocking on the doors of Boeing or LM or Dassault or the russians for our carrier air wing - which by the way, is going to be a mini air force in some time.

N-AMCA and such stuff are far away, to be realistic. For this decade and the next, the IN will have to do with migs and LCAs, and perhaps a N-MMRCA. A bird in the hand...

Another factor is of course, numbers, and cost. Small single engined LCA flying CAP, leaving the heavies to do long range strikes will make the venture more cost effective. The IAF just had a heart attack, seeing its fuel bill due to all the MKIs. IMO there is always an important role for a small, agile, multirole, single engined, fuel efficient aircraft for large air forces or large navies.

The IN isn't really banking on the N-LCA as a platform in its force structure as much as a stepping stone for a real and concerted effort for indigenous air-platform development because the IN has traditionally been the force with the least quantum of funds set aside for it in relative terms- this has ensured a culture which looks towards setting up long-term plans where indigenous bases are built even as acquisitions run along. So even as the Rajput class DDGs were coming in the infra required for the Kolkata class DDGs, Shivaliks and the IAC-1 was being developed. On the other hand the other forces have often completely ignored the infra needs of indigenous development (the IN has uniformed naval engineers embedded in various labs and yards ergo ensuring a certain amount of coherence in perspective and coordination between the end-user and developer, sure there are still issues but the IN is ironing them out). Also the IN does what it does as a result of necessity, so you have a longer term plan for naval power-plants and propulsion systems (since the IN knows that an accelerated surface fleet modernization program in the next decade will require more indigenous inputs in terms of Indian vendors providing some of the heavy components which till date remain in the import category). Its a case of difference in perspectives.

As for the scorpenes, the problem lies elsewhere, namely the apex decision making body- the MoD which completely dropped the ball on how things were meant to progress (this a topic which will require a whole thread to itself, so I'll indulge in it later).


@Capt.Popeye can provide more details wrt the IN's approach towards building an indigenous supplier base and the difference between its approach and that of the other forces.