Indian Navy News & Discussions

[jha]

Indian Aircraft Carrier construction on schedule: CSL


In the latest report of Cochin Shipyard Limited, it mentions that the prestigious IAC project is proceeding on schedule with the company completing a large portion of hull block fabrication and erection in the building dock during 2009-10. The company is presently constructing 15 commercial ships for various international and domestic owners along with the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier for the Indian Navy.

In Ship repair, over the years CSL has gained experience in undertaking high tech repair jobs on rigs, defence vessels and all types of commercial ships. 50 ships were repaired in the year 2009-10, major works among them being normal refit of INS ‘VIRAAT’, extended short refit of INS ‘TARANGINI”, conversion of Research vessel ‘Sindhu Sankalp’, Medium refit of INS “Nireekshak” and short refit of “INS Jyothi”.

Amongst its new initiatives, Cochin Shipyard installed a bollard pull test facility upto 500 tonnes at Vizhinjam which was the first step towards geographical diversification. Presently facility of such high capacity is not available anywhere in India. The yard commissioned a Small Ship Division in the year 2009-10 for concurrent construction of small commercial ships during the pendency of the Aircraft Carrier construction. CSL is also looking for capacity expansion by way of Drydock / Shiplift for which project study is underway.

link

 

[CONNAN]

ANY UPDATE ON THIS OLD NEWS

Indigenous AIP Submarine in 4-5 yrs
Posted on 04 October 2008 by ashok

New Delhi: The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to develop an indigenous Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in four to five years, chief controller, Research and Development, A Sivathanu Pillai has said.
Research and development work was going on at the DRDO Naval Material Research Laboratory (NMRL) in Mumbai to develop hydrogen-based fuel cells for the diesel-powered submarines, Pillai told mediapersons in Kochi on Friday.


“NMRL already has developed number of fuel cells,” Pillai, who was at Trikkakara near Kochi in connection with a national symposium at the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), said.
Diesel power submarines will have to surface everyday for air, while the hydrogen based technology is new and presently not operational anywhere in the world.
“It is being developed by one or two countries. We are also going to develop that technology and that will be installed in the diesel submarines,” he said.
The hydrogen based technology could enable submarines operate for long duration, may be 20 to 25 days under water, he said.
To a query, he said while Pakistan got AIP developed by France last month under the deal to purchase the Agosta submarines, India would be able to to develop the technology indigenously.
India may also go in for AIP system from France or some other countries for the six submarines that are being constructed at Mazgaon.
“But, we are not interested in that system and want a better system that is based on hydrogen,” Pillai said. — DD News

 

[flanker143]

$11 billion second line of submarines for Indian Navy to boost private sector

On 26 Sep 2008 a Pakistani shipyard successfully launched the first Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in the Indian Ocean, the third of its Khalid Class - Agosta 90B submarines. China meanwhile has 62 submarines of which 10 are nuclear powered.

At the same time, NDTV reports that India will be left with only 9 old submarines by 2012 as two Russian foxtrots will be decommissioned by next year. So on 6 Jul 2010 when Indian Defence Minister A. K. Antony approved a second line of submarines - Project 75(I) to be constructed in India at a cost of 50,000 crore (US$11 billion), it came as a good surprise, doubly so because it is expected to boost private sector contribution in naval projects. In this regard, Manu Sood, Editor 8ak interviewed Maj Gen (retd) Bhupinder Yadav, who heads a small group of retired ex-servicemen in a Defence and Aerospace consulting company Q-tech Synergy.

8ak: How many submarines does the Indian Navy plan to have?

Yadav: The Indian Navy proposes to have a mix of twenty-four nuclear and conventional submarines of the SSK type. With 6 Scorpene and a further 6 Project-75(I) , the remaining 12 subs will be of an indigenous design.

The Indian navy is also planning to build micro-submarines for its strategic operations. An RFP was issued in Nov 2009 to Indian shipyards including Hindustan Shipyards Limited, ABG and Pipavav shipyards, Larsen & Toubro and state-owned Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL). Indian Navy is planning to get five of these vessels at a cost of about $80 million but the inductions can be doubled later on.

8ak: Why is the price almost US$2 billion per submarine whereas strategypage reports US$350 for an AIP submarine?

Yadav: The 2005, Scorpene diesel submarines deal was signed, with an option for 6 more and extensive technology transfer agreements was reported as being in excess of $4 billion. The Proj 75(I) is a Rs 50,000 crore ($10.7 bn) project for building six vessels. These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

8ak: Why did India not go in for a nuclear submarine instead of diesel electric?

Yadav: The utility of conventional diesel-electric submarines with the introduction of AIP (air-independent propulsion) systems like the French company DCNS' MESMA (Module d'Energie Sous-Marine Autonome) and German fuel cells, even the durations they can stay underwater can be increased substantially. They also have the added advantages of being smaller and cheaper than nuclear submarines. Another reason could have been the recent accident on Submarines both in Russia and India.

(8ak note: For a detailed note on the difference between SSK and SSNs (nuclear) read here.)

8ak: Why are others like Fincanteri, BAE Systems and US manufacturers not in the deal?

Yadav: RFI was sent to French DCNS, Spanish Navantia, Russian Rubin, Italy's Fincantieri and German HDW (now owned by Thyssenkrup). Great Britain and America only build nuclear submarines and not diesel electric.

8ak: The RFI was written up a couple of years ago, so why the delay?

Yadav: RFI was issued on 27 October 2008 for six diesel-electric attack submarines to be built in Indian shipyard, public or private, with special emphasis on full transfer of technology. The subs were to be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) boosting their operational capabilities to have high degree of stealth, land-attack capability and ability to incorporate futuristic technologies. Since this will be a new type of submarine, the details and processing of project of this size does take time. Beside 3 reasons which delayed the project.

Some stray thought why not go for nuclear submarines, which has its own advantage and disadvantages such as vastly improved range and speeds, but are noisy hence no stealthy operations.
Time was also wasted on Pull and Push for this crucial programme by the public or private sector. Navy pressing to opt for a shipyard other than the Mazagon Docks, which has its hands full and has been delaying most of the projects.
Some friendly countries have been trying to put pressure that the additional submarine be procured from them. Hence the delay in RFP.
8ak: Why is the Indian private sector so enthusiastic about this announcement?

Yadav: Public sector shipyards like Mazgaon dock running at full capacity and behind schedule. L&T's excellent performance in the construction of the nuclear submarine and smaller submarine projects has given the Navy and the ministries the confidence in the private sector's ability to deliver quality vessels, systems and on deliver as per schedule. Minimum of one submarine will be built at a private shipyard and a some sub-systems will be supplied by the private sector boosting indigenous capabilities.

 

[jha]

These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

So, we will be getting best of all tech. in one sub...Thats why so much cost...
beside 100% TOT means we will be knowing every thing about the best tech. available...

 

[flanker143]

These will be new submarine and not the Scorpene and will be a bigger submarine with specific features with key differentiator being a new class of missiles, having some features from the HDW Type 214, the Russian Amur class, the Italian Fincantieri S-1000 in collaboration with Rubin of Russia. The extra cost could be for the new design that will allow the incorporation of future technologies, stealth features, missiles, transfer of technology, Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) and land attack capabilities.

So, we will be getting best of all tech. in one sub...Thats why so much cost...
beside 100% TOT means we will be knowing every thing about the best tech. available...

still i dont get this ... scorpene with tot costed 4bil ..... and a new sub with similar features costs a lot more more than double !!!

 

[Tejas-MkII]

It seems like IN trying to get best technologies from the major deisel sub builder acroos the world.

And put all those things together from design to weapon into a sub which is co-produced by the private and public shipyard not only from india but also from foreign shipyard which increase the induction rate.

If let say the first sub come around 2016-17 and it constructed simultaneously by 2-3 shipyard it will be.....

Nice stratesy by IN...

As we can see the size of this deal each player can get substantial amount of money,so the side affect of this deal is we can sabotage any other country deal to get any advance sub from these countries.....

 

[Mauryan]

If my memory serves me right,

a way back right after scorpene deal went through,IN considered next lot to be capable of submerged for extended periods and extremely stealthy while being capable of land attack and sea surface attack.Then a significant load out of 8-12 AShM`s of the brahmos class including a heavy AIP would need a sub with a displacement of over 2800 tonns surfaced and 75-80m length while having a sufficient load out of sea mines and torpedoes.

This turns out to be that scorpenes will be the smallest new gen subs of IN in the SSK type.The price of 50K Crore seems to be reasonable while considering the weapons loadout and AIP all included with TOT.

Every one foregetting the catch here is the 24 SSK of the 30 year program which been delayed.though better late than never,the 12 SSK will be purely indigenous in design and armament carrying Brahmos-II as its main weaponry with Sagarika being an option.this simply projects the fact that the other 12 will be nuclear boomers of SSK type.

Neither the IN nor MOD came to a perfect conclusion about the number of SSN`s and SSBN`s.While conservative estimates turned out to be 6-8 SSN`s being built while 3-5 SSBN`s on the table excluding Arihant.The most weird thing is this conservative number itself is not stable and is relatively dependant on the SSK line of 24 subs.

While the propulsion system of future A/C is still in debates in both Naval and MOD circles,this A/C endurance is putting force on the submarine construction line.THis brings to the conclusion that the whole SSK and SSN numbers are totally dependant on the propulsion system of A/C. while all this happening on this side of the wall the other side of the wall hit a nail in the cofin of future surface combatants AKA P-15B destroyers.SC group calls of the continution of the P-15A line with ABM capability included while power projection group is calling for the same with nuke propulsion and wanted to be a perfecto cruiser.

Having all said,IN wants to venture into pacific in the coming 7 years with couple of medium time berthing facilities in mind for what talks are just started.To be the rulers of IOR,you have to be in command of Pacific.But as long as US holding power in both the regions,it isnot possible in the near feature,but counting 1 first only leads to the counting of million.IN wishes to start counting 1 today while being optimistic of reaching that million ahead.

 

[KEETARP]

while all this happening on this side of the wall the other side of the wall hit a nail in the cofin of future surface combatants AKA P-15B destroyers.

So its official now - Dead end for P15B .
But it was a cleared project by DAC , how can they revert

SC group calls of the continution of the P-15A line with ABM capability included while power projection group is calling for the same with nuke propulsion and wanted to be a perfecto cruiser.

Adding ABM capability , PVD/PAD with LRTR-2 / Swordfish will require major designing on current Kolkata class what we have seen . imo ??
Haven't heard anything recently about Naval Swordfish / LRTR-2 , ??

While the propulsion system of future A/C is still in debates in both Naval and MOD circles,this A/C endurance is putting force on the submarine construction line.THis brings to the conclusion that the whole SSK and SSN numbers are totally dependant on the propulsion system of A/C.

Simply don't understand the dilemma of Navy , either you have N-A/C or you don't , no alternative
A nu-carrier not only adds the power projection but also only +++quotient .
While a SSN/SSBN will add power projection but can have ----/+++ quotient wrt to SSK . Each having its share of contribution to force . SSK can replace SSN to get N/AC .

 

[CONNAN]

any news on our ruski carrier groski

 

[flanker143]

i got a question guys---- whats the difference between an nuclear attack submarine and a ballistic missle submarine ...... apart from having n-tipped long range missiles(and its related hardware) ??

 

[igoogle]

Indian Navy in mad spree to buy arms


The Indian Navy is planning to buy six submarines at the cost of Rs 50,000 crore, which is the biggest and the most ambitious deal for arms the country has ever signed. In fact, it overtakes the 126 fighter aircraft deal that would cost New Delhi around Rs 42,000 crores.

These submarines are in addition to six Scorpene submarines India is acquiring from France at the cost of Rs 20,000 crores. In all, India is in a race to build/ purchase 12 modern diesel electric submarines in the coming decade.

The Indian Navy’s mad spree to buy the latest weapons is generating concern among the neighbouring countries and even in far-off nations.

In 2007, Indian Defence Minister A.K. Antony had declared: “India has the potential and the capability to be a significant maritime player. I would even venture to say that the Indian Ocean could, in fact, be India’s new Silk Route.” The Indian Ocean’s littoral extends from South Africa to Australia.

The Pakistan naval chief, Admiral Noman Bashir, recently in a speech made it clear that the Indian Navy’s current force structure and future expansion plans “reflect its hegemonic mindset to further flex its muscles and become a blue water navy.” In this backdrop, the protection of maritime trade and the safety of sea lanes has become the Pakistan Navy’s main concern, he said.

Speaking at a naval aviation seminar, Admiral Bashir made it clear that Pakistan Navy was keeping a watchful eye on its area of responsibility to ensure free flow of traffic and to effectively tackle threats and challenges.

Some of the upcoming Indian naval developments which reflect her ambitions to build a strategic blue water navy include an indigenously built Air Defence Ship which will enter into service in 2014, four stealth destroyers, first of the three ATV submarines, the INS Arihant, and induction of 10 Fast Attack Craft (FACs). The Indian Navy is planning to buy 50 light utility helicopters. In this regard, a request for information (RfI) has been sent to four international companies. The helicopters would have the capability of carrying out anti-submarine attacks with torpedoes and depth charges. Although already possessing a large fleet of maritime surveillance aircraft, Indian Naval Air Arm is further expanding by purchasing eight customized P-8A Maritime Multi-Mission Aircraft from Boeing. The first aircraft will be delivered by 2013 and the remaining by 2015-16. Additionally, Indian Navy is procuring four carrier-based AEW&C aircraft to carry out airborne surveillance, detection and tracking of airborne and surface contacts and similarly maritime strike capability is being enhanced through induction of advanced MiG-29 K naval fighter aircraft and BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from Russia.

The list is not exhaustive as there a many more acquisitions, developments and expansion projects which underscore the Indian Navy’s strategic ambitions in the wider Asia-Pacific region and the threat that it poses to the neighbouring countries, especially Pakistan.

Indian Navy in mad spree to buy arms

 

[jha]

^^ Forgot to mention AKULA and Next gen. Fighter aircrafts to be procured for next carrier.

and yes..12 SSKs to be designed and built at home..

 

[Mauryan]

So its official now - Dead end for P15B .
But it was a cleared project by DAC , how can they revert
{ You got the wrong side. The point of introducing nail in the cofin is delay.They are scrambling regarding propulsion system.Most people are opposing nuclear for these large destroyers. If their opinion tilts, they likely sport nuke propulsion with few extra goodies in terms of more SAM numbers and long range cruise missiles( of may be shourya atleast 8).}

Adding ABM capability , PVD/PAD with LRTR-2 / Swordfish will require major designing on current Kolkata class what we have seen . imo ??
Haven't heard anything recently about Naval Swordfish / LRTR-2 , ??
{ I Said continuation of P-15 class.P-15A is the past.Next class will be an obvious P-15B.DRDO is in the process of installing naval Swordfish for its PDV testing which likely will happen anytime between 2012-13
It is certain that P-15B will carry PDV/AAD in the medium turn.}

Simply don't understand the dilemma of Navy , either you have N-A/C or you don't , no alternative
A nu-carrier not only adds the power projection but also only +++quotient .
While a SSN/SSBN will add power projection but can have ----/+++ quotient wrt to SSK . Each having its share of contribution to force . SSK can replace SSN to get N/AC .
{Its not dilemma.It just bureacracy and turtle nature.And the lack of ability to hop the hurdles created by babus.Babus has nothing else but pointing political implications in having nuclear propulsion carriers/subs/cruisers.While navy on the other hand want to do the same load of work with less resources and extreme performance.
No one in the whole armed forces can reject the fact that IN is the only far sighted force and capable of taking on the worst Indian enemy to block its 80% resources to bring any war to decisive victory.a gods gift to IN is Nicobar.Future of Nicobar will be changed dramatically by 2015 -2018 when a whole CBG will be based there along with unclassified SSBNs.This is one of the long term goals of IN since 1990`s.

A CBG based in Nicobar will bring whole East Asia under Indian coverage and capable of striking any where in the region within less than an hour.This is what MOD as well as IN wants to achieve.Strike on naval and merchant vessels in the need of the hour.
Once the above objective is achieved,it brings in both +++ quotient from both friendly and nuetral countries and ---- quotient from an enemy.

No one can easily discard the fact that Nuke propulsion carriers with 50+ aircrafts can create havoc in the offensive roles while airdefence is taken over by defending ships.Its a clear and blatant message to China that no matter how much infra you build in the mountaneous terrain,we still have our sword round your neck.Just behave yourself with no exxageration.period}

On the positive side,a recent report framed by a group of folk working on shourya calls for an AShM varriant.Though needs the support of very long range over the horizon radars and satellite support to detect and tracking the ships/combat vessels the design is on the move for a range of over 2500Km AShM.One of the advantages is its hypersonic speed and over 40+Km altitude(which alows its own radar/IIR seeker to scan a huge area while being provided mid-course guidance.Using the same airframe and 95% commanality with a change of launcher suitable for naval use(only surface combatants for now)the most optimistic dates of completion of the project is 5 years from now.Having said that IN is in the process of having its own satellites to detect and track vessels on high seas,the whole hypersonic project seems to end with a smile on the face.

 

[KEETARP]

One of the advantages is its hypersonic speed and over 40+Km altitude(which alows its own radar/IIR seeker to scan a huge area while being provided mid-course guidance

Any plan to have dual seeker akin to Brahmos .

And change of propulsion to hybrid one (oxidizer separate from solid fuel) giving controllable thrust

 

[CONNAN]

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