Indian defence & religion

[SamantK]

Right.

When you jokers speak, you represent Indic civilisation. When I speak, I should speak for myself. Aren't you getting a bit obvious? And what if you are a Tamizh and posted about Buddhist monks doing Bhumi Puja? Naturally you will post whatever buttresses your argument that these have been universalised by usage, and are no longer outside the repertory of the customs of the minorities?

Second, it is not the four lemons, but the entire apparatus of coercion, the assumption that all good members of the team will participate, or else.....someone who already belongs to a minority, and is harshly conscious of the numbers of his or her community in stable employment, compared to the majority community's high and middle caste members, is hardly likely to make a stand on principle. Try to put yourself in their place; try to keep aside your existing persona for a second, and breathe their air, think their thoughts.

The high- and middle-castes will not change, that is a given. That is why they were brutally dispossessed, and are now migrants to every other geography under the Sun. It is a pity that even those traumatic happenings have not brought them some sensitivity and awareness about the plight of others even less fortunately placed than them, even after taking their sudden fall from grace into account.

What sh!t are you on? Care to share some?
I feel like having fun now, as im tired of explaining along with I believe many other members here....

 

[Subramanian]

People are normal Right Liberals and associate themselves with a Centrist Congress view are so taken back by the extreme positions these washed marxists take and it is because of this that i feel,people end up taking solid right wing positions and this alone ll save us from the treachery and cunning of the marxists.

 

[SamantK]

Not my rear. And I am averse to the rears of others. For reasons of hygiene, of course.

Can you imagine that there are compulsions other than at gunpoint? Can you tell me of a single instance of a ritual of this nature taking place, when you asked a minority colleague frankly if he or she was comfortable with it?

Ok, so you did, elaborate your experience now......

 

[protest]

Some of the practises like Bhumi Puja are not superstition as some posters have already explained and no one claimed they are done for the sake of Hinduism.

These practises are what that lends the quirkyness and color to the otherwise bland and robotic happenings and represents the culture and tradition of this land.

So please read properly what is being said before explaining what is Hinduism here. Also if you did not know Bhumi Puja is an essential part in Buddhism too.

Monks doing a Bhumi Puja Lhagyal on the site of new monastery.

You are being extremely silly. Just because a ritual has sanctions in few religions doesn't give it significance. If you can scientifically prove that Bhumi Puja would somehow effect an ill conceived project to be a major success or vice versa, I'll eat my words.

And to your point, Buddhism also has a Bhumi Puja, would you think they do it exactly the same way as Hindus does. Obviously no. Now which would you consider the right way? See there is an inherent fault in your own contention.

My argument is having a Bhumi Puja would not have a bearing either way. If these scientists feel that there could be then they are free to have it in private. National projects are not to be muddled with these silly rituals.

 

[Joe Shearer]

That a culture,tradition will continue irrespective of the insecure ramblings of a few.

Your culture, not necessarily the culture of the other 15% excluded, not to mention the 30% of Dalits. A culture imposed on others, by default, without explicit consent or discussion. A tradition built out of the last 65 years of proving to the Pakistanis that their fears of being intimidated and overwhelmed by the majority was precisely correct. A tradition which never existed in the public sphere before.

 

[SamantK]

You are being extremely silly. Just because a ritual has sanctions in few religions doesn't give it significance. If you can scientifically prove that Bhumi Puja would somehow effect an ill conceived project to be a major success or vice versa, I'll eat my words.

And to your point, Buddhism also has a Bhumi Puja, would you think they do it exactly the same way as Hindus does. Obviously no. Now which would you consider the right way? See there is an inherent fault in your own contention.

My argument is having a Bhumi Puja would not have a bearing either way. If these scientists feel that there could be then they are free to have it in private. National projects are not to be muddled with these silly rituals.

Dude, whatever rocks your boat, see what they do or don't why do you bother, you bother on the point whether they deliver you the product or not? They invested a lot of hard work into something, I dont mind if they are all muslims and do a prayer for a project, hell I will be happy it will be done for India.. rest all is bullshit!

 

[Joe Shearer]

Today it will be these rituals, tomorrow it will be the idols, day after it will be the temples.

Why do you think these are done to remind you are the minority ? Insecurity perhaps ?

As another poster said, India is secular not because minorities want but because majority wants.

All along, consistently, it has been argued that it is the imposition of these rituals in the public sphere that is objectionable. Never were idols, or temples mentioned, nor were they indicated. This is just plain double speak on your part.

I think that only the public place rituals are reminders of minority status to the minorities, because they are imposed without a discussion, without consulting the minorities, not in ones and twos, where they are vulnerable, but as a group.

Finally, yes, certainly, India is secular not because minorities want, but because majority wants. The paradox is that the majority does not want to impose anything on the minority; it is only a handful of bigots, on this thread, represented by you, Angad_NSA and Samantk, and lately, Subramanian and RigVedic, five in all, who want these egregious measures taken.

It is the majority that keeps us secular. You are not part of that majority. You are part of the section within it that thinks differently.

 

[Tamizhan]

Right.

When you jokers speak, you represent Indic civilisation. When I speak, I should speak for myself. Aren't you getting a bit obvious? And what if you are a Tamizh and posted about Buddhist monks doing Bhumi Puja? Naturally you will post whatever buttresses your argument that these have been universalised by usage, and are no longer outside the repertory of the customs of the minorities?

Jokers ?..got your nerve pricked Mr.Joe ?

Why I posted the Buddhist monks doing Bhumi Puja ? To expose your claims about these Pujas being exclusive to Hinduism and alienates other minority.

Second, it is not the four lemons, but the entire apparatus of coercion, the assumption that all good members of the team will participate, or else.....someone who already belongs to a minority, and is harshly conscious of the numbers of his or her community in stable employment, compared to the majority community's high and middle caste members, is hardly likely to make a stand on principle. Try to put yourself in their place; try to keep aside your existing persona for a second, and breathe their air, think their thoughts.

Un-necessary victim hood complex for which I feel sorry. In our workplace we celebrate Diwali and Xmas with the same gaiety and the Muslims perform namaz in the office itself during Ramzan. We don't have any inhibitions,complexes, in-securites about anything. Unfortunately for you, majority of Indians, even minorities don't have this teeming insecurity about these rituals. So I can discard you as a one-off case and go on. But it is more imperative that you be made aware of that fact.

Oh btw I see now the filter has reduced from Hindus as a whole to middle class and upper class.Keep going until you arrive at the magic word "Brahmin".

The high- and middle-castes will not change, that is a given. That is why they were brutally dispossessed, and are now migrants to every other geography under the Sun. It is a pity that even those traumatic happenings have not brought them some sensitivity and awareness about the plight of others even less fortunately placed than them, even after taking their sudden fall from grace into account.

Un-necessary verbiage, exhibit # n.

 

[protest]

Dude, whatever rocks your boat, see what they do or don't why do you bother, you bother on the point whether they deliver you the product or not? They invested a lot of hard work into something, I dont mind if they are all muslims and do a prayer for a project, hell I will be happy it will be done for India.. rest all is bullshit!

You and I have a similar view points except you want some ritual to signify a god's grace and I don't think any ritual has that significance. Lets break it at that.

 

[anonymus]

Disclaimer :

I did NOT open this thread. It is the work of some Mods. I posted my first post in the LCA thread as a matter of fact to show these things are in integral part in Indian industries and logged off. When I came back this had taken the avatar as a separate thread.

Not that I am embarassed as such for such practises, it is just that I dont pay much heed to them and will not think about opening a thread about it and unfortunately increase the insecurity of some people.

This is the most illogical thread i have seen.Even though threads are merged,this is the first time i am seeing a thread being weaned off another thread with it's first post being response to some another post.

Looks like some administrator is flaimbaiting Indian members.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Why they have to be eliminated ? Why are its critics so dogged about rooting it out ? Have you thought how these things are important to others that you cannot tolerate they carrying it out ?

In one sentence: because they contribute nothing. They are irrelevant functionally; their only relevance is as symbols of cultural hegemonism.

 

[Tamizhan]

Your culture, not necessarily the culture of the other 15% excluded, not to mention the 30% of Dalits. A culture imposed on others, by default, without explicit consent or discussion. A tradition built out of the last 65 years of proving to the Pakistanis that their fears of being intimidated and overwhelmed by the majority was precisely correct. A tradition which never existed in the public sphere before.

Hahah classic trick of the snake oil sellers. Divide the Dalits as if they are not Hindus.

The veneer is fast falling off Mr.Joe.

Traditions built in last 65 years ? It is better to remain silent than open your mouth and remove all doubts.

 

[SamantK]

All along, consistently, it has been argued that it is the imposition of these rituals in the public sphere that is objectionable. Never were idols, or temples mentioned, nor were they indicated. This is just plain double speak on your part.

I think that only the public place rituals are reminders of minority status to the minorities, because they are imposed without a discussion, without consulting the minorities, not in ones and twos, where they are vulnerable, but as a group.

Finally, yes, certainly, India is secular not because minorities want, but because majority wants. The paradox is that the majority does not want to impose anything on the minority; it is only a handful of bigots, on this thread, represented by you, Angad_NSA and Samantk, and lately, Subramanian and RigVedic, five in all, who want these egregious measures taken.

It is the majority that keeps us secular. You are not part of that majority. You are part of the section within it that thinks differently.

lolz... I can see frustration building up, why don't you go back to your venture and force people to not do anything religious, why troll here? If this was the point, why did you discuss so much, you could have simply put up a point that it would have been better if due consultations were done with minority?

 

[Manas]

Nobody is an atheist in a foxhole .

 

[Tamizhan]

In one sentence: because they contribute nothing. They are irrelevant functionally; their only relevance is as symbols of cultural hegemonism.

That is in your own perverted insecurity filled mind which looks down upon these rituals as barbaric practises. Not in others.

As long as these traditions don't harm others physically or mentally you got no case except a fascistic reasoning of "I dont like it , so remove it".