Indian AWACS thread

[sancho]

It says it can detect a fight sized aircraft at 350KM, but if its a bigger sized aircraft, it can be detected at longer ranges.

Instrument range would most probably mean the maximum range where the radar waves can travel and have detection capability. A ship at sea can most probably be detected at much larger range, similarly a big aircraft would be detected at more then 350Km range.

Now the specifications of this radar is not even clear, that what it means fighter sized aircraft it can detect, is it with RCS of 1m2, 3m2 or what. If they mean fighter sized aircraft with RCS 1m2 at 350KM, then definitely it can detect larger RCS aircraft at more then 350KM.

But the detection of how much RCS fighter sized aircraft are classified.

Instrumental range is the range it can detect targets via ESM, that means it gathers some signals, but can't identify, or track it in that range. The 350Km range for fighter sized targets instead are the actual radar range and it is more likely that they are talking about targets with a RCS of 3 - 5 m². Cruise missiles are often quoted at 1m² and the detection for such targets are far less.

The most reliable source for the Erieye, is still this Saab Graphic:

http://pakbee.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Saab-2000-Pakistan-Air-Force-2.jpg


As you can see it detects cruise missiles only in around 180Km, ships around 270Km and fighters (in normal altitudes) as mentioned before in 350Km range.

The only directly comparable figur from Beriev, the manufacturer of the A50 (with Russian radar system) is the detection of cruise missiles with a RCS of 1m²:

Detection range for: cruise missiles (S1m2), km 215

Beriev Aircraft Company


So even the Russian version seems to offer some advantages in detection compared to Swedish, sadly there are not reliable sources for the A50 Phalcon.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Instrumental range is the range it can detect targets via ESM, that means it gathers some signals, but can't identify, or track it in that range. The 350Km range for fighter sized targets instead are the actual radar range and it is more likely that they are talking about targets with a RCS of 3 - 5 m². Cruise missiles are often quoted at 1m² and the detection for such targets are far less.

The most reliable source for the Erieye, is still this Saab Graphic:

http://pakbee.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Saab-2000-Pakistan-Air-Force-2.jpg


As you can see it detects cruise missiles only in around 180Km, ships around 270Km and fighters (in normal altitudes) as mentioned before in 350Km range.

The only directly comparable figur from Beriev, the manufacturer of the A50 (with Russian radar system) is the detection of cruise missiles with a RCS of 1m²:



Beriev Aircraft Company


So even the Russian version seems to offer some advantages in detection compared to Swedish, sadly there are not reliable sources for the A50 Phalcon.

Here is a good read about what instrument range is in radars, to sum it up, it is basically the range of the radar waves which can be extended to.

Read Page 78, Para 4.9

Advances in bistatic radar - Google Books

Page 21, para 1.7: http://books.google.com.pk/books?id...ge&q=what is radar instrumented range&f=false

And as for the A-50, well i believe nowadays cruise missiles RCS is much lower then 1m2, nowadays even planes are having such small RCS, cruise missiles with composite material and other stealthy stuff would definitely be much smaller to detect.

Here are a few sources which quote the RCS of modern Cruise Missiles, mostly in the range of 0.1m2, thus even the A-50 or even Phalcon would be detecting it nearly the same time as the Erieye would be, if the RCS is 0.1m2, a 1m2 target would be very easily detected far away.

Page 56: http://www.princeton.edu/sgs/publications/sgs/pdf/3_1-2lewis.pdf

Page 43, ref # 109: http://www.csbaonline.org/4Publications/PubLibrary/R.20050310.CruiseMiss/R.20050310.CruiseMiss.pdf

Main problem is, that we have sources, some official and some not, but what are the real characteristics of such platforms is still hidden.

 

[Dash]

See I dont believe in the RCS concept as this can be nagated by a powerful Radar. The base here is the more powerful antenna you have your 1m2 becomes detectable much before the claimed distance.

A normal AWACS can detect an enemy aircraft with 7m2 travelling at 800 km/hr t around 370 Kms (I have a source) so you get a rough 28 mins reaction time. but a cruise missile flies low and has an RCS of one tength of this can be detected at a range roughly around 130 Kms...so assuming missiles with better RCS will be detected by a distance of merely 25-30 kms, leaving you with a reaction time for 2 mins

and if the cruise missile is tarrain hugging then its even more stressful for the AWACS and gound based radars, so keeping cruise missiles in AWACS coverage is not that fruitful so it should be out of discussion...

The role of any AWACS mostly to cover Fighters and tarrain mapping of ground force movements. If the AWACS is trong in this case then it can be called as a good AWACS.

So if A-50 gives a better detection range that Erieye in this field then it can be called as a AWACS having advantage.

Phalcon believed to have a range of 370 Kms against fighter sized aircraft.

 

[sancho]

See I dont believe in the RCS concept as this can be nagated by a powerful Radar. The base here is the more powerful antenna you have your 1m2 becomes detectable much before the claimed distance.

A normal AWACS can detect an enemy aircraft with 7m2 travelling at 800 km/hr t around 370 Kms (I have a source) so you get a rough 28 mins reaction time. but a cruise missile flies low and has an RCS of one tength of this can be detected at a range roughly around 130 Kms...so assuming missiles with better RCS will be detected by a distance of merely 25-30 kms, leaving you with a reaction time for 2 mins

and if the cruise missile is tarrain hugging then its even more stressful for the AWACS and gound based radars, so keeping cruise missiles in AWACS coverage is not that fruitful so it should be out of discussion...

The role of any AWACS mostly to cover Fighters and tarrain mapping of ground force movements. If the AWACS is trong in this case then it can be called as a good AWACS.

So if A-50 gives a better detection range that Erieye in this field then it can be called as a AWACS having advantage.

Phalcon believed to have a range of 370 Kms against fighter sized aircraft.

The problem here is, which Phalcon? There are several different Phalcon AWACS aircrafts with different size, radar arrays and powerplants. But all these points should change the detection, even if the radar system is the same in each aircraft.
All news reports about it, mention G550, Boeing 707 and A50 Phalcons at the same time, with the same features and capabilities and that's why I doubt this figure and expect some more.

 

[Dash]

You are correct, its more or less is what I was trying point out. But based on the American scientists consortium, they said its the best AWACs in the world currently, roughly giving it an upper edge over others.

About technicality, lets see I have no ifo on that, but Iam trying.

 

[krapt]

India's AEW&C Programme Gets Ready For Platform Flight Tests

Have just received a detailed briefing on the test phase of India's AEW&C programme. In a few months, the first of three modified EMB-145 platforms will begin a routine of flight tests for basic
performance and handling. This preliminary testing will be carried out in Brazil by Embraer and a team from the Indian Air Force's Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) in association with Brazil's Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil and India's CEMILAC.

The first flight test aircraft, which is set to make its first flight later this year, will be integrated with a Dorsal Unit (DoU) containing dummy electronics, ECS, IFR, auxiliary power units, internal fuel tanks, SATCOMs and antennae. India's Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS) -- the laboratory spearheading the programme -- has already supplied Embraer with a dorsal unit (with dummy electronics) and a Ku-band SATCOM dome, while the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), CABS and the Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) have shipped in antennae for ESM, CSM and U/VHF.

While the EMB-145 with the configuration above will undergo flight tests in Brazil, the configuration for ferry to India in August 2011 will be the aircraft with only the dorsal pylon (minus the unit), ECS, IFR, APUs and internal fuel tanks.

Once the first aircraft reaches India, it will undergo a rigorous flight testing schedule by CABS, ASTE and CEMILAC in association with Embraer. After a few flights in India, the aircraft will be integrated with a doral unit with real electronics and other mission system equipment, including operator workstations (five), avionics racks, rest crew seating, seats and cabling.

On June 23, EADS Defence & Security announced that it had been awarded a contract to supply consultancy services to CABS for developing the AEW&C's system architecture with particular regard to certification and mission equipment optimisation.

Source: Livefist

 

[Choppers]

 

[Abingdonboy]

why is it that the IAF's A-50 based AWACs does not have Indian AF written on the side like th eother Il-76s in the IAF fleet?

AWACs

[/QUOTE]

IL-76 in IAF

 

[marcos98]

Registration/Serial No. KW-3553, the Third A-50EI Phalcon:

WITH THE DOME.

 

[rajgoynar]

ndia Defence Online, New Delhi — India is making substantial headway in its indigenous development of nine Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) and the first one will be ready for flight-tests by the end of 2011. Besides, the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has also revealed that it is developing two Aerostats for additional surveillance and communications.

The premier state-owned defence firm DRDO has involved five of its laboratories including the Centre for Airborne Systems, Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DERL), Defence Electronics Application Laboratory and Electronics and Radar Development Establishment to be a part of the homegrown AWACS project. The AWACS will be 85 per cent indigenous, sources said.

The homegrown AWACS will augment the capabilities of the Indian Air Force (IAF) in terms of air defence, surveillance and network-centric operations. The DRDO indicated that three of the systems would be integrated on board the Brazilian Embraer EMB 145 jet and delivered by 2014. A sanction to the tune of Rs.10,000 crore has been given for six AWACS to the DRDO and the delivery to the IAF will commence from 2014. However, the base aircraft for the rest of the six AWACS is yet undecided.

Added to the AWACS project, the DRDO is also developing two variants of military Aerostats for the Indian Armed Forces. The DRDO indicated that the first type of the Aerostat will carry military payloads up to an altitude of 1,000 meters and the second type up to a height of 5,000 meters. The radar of the 1,000-metre aerostat would have a coverage of 150 kilometres while that of the 5,000 metre one would be up to 200-250 kilometres. A 1,000-metre Aerostat was already afloat and its functions have been demonstrated to both the Army and Air Force. Aerostats would be used for surveillance, jamming of electronic systems, intelligence data gathering and for communication relay.

The homemade AWACS project has been mired with delays from the beginning. The Indian government cleared the development of a homemade AWACS in 2004 and under the proposal worth $450 million, the first prototype of the AWACS was to fly by 2007 and the AWACS inducted into the Indian Air Force by 2010.

However, the IAF pointed out that the Embraer EMB-145 platform cannot fly above 40,000 feet and besides, the indigenous AWACS’s surveillance radar is only capable of 300 kilometres detection coverage of 240 degrees. All these factors make the Indian AWACS inadequate for effective surveillance. Hence, the IAF requested the selection of either a Boeing or an Airbus platform as the payload of the AWACS has increased from an earlier planned level of around 4500 kilograms to over 7000 kilograms, due to change in avionics and radar for the AWACS which is presently being developed. However, the DRDO warned that the Boeing or Airbus platform will inflate the price of the AWACS.

 

[sancho]

However, the IAF pointed out that the Embraer EMB-145 platform cannot fly above 40,000 feet and besides, the indigenous AWACS’s surveillance radar is only capable of 300 kilometres detection coverage of 240 degrees. All these factors make the Indian AWACS inadequate for effective surveillance. Hence, the IAF requested the selection of either a Boeing or an Airbus platform as the payload of the AWACS has increased from an earlier planned level of around 4500 kilograms to over 7000 kilograms, due to change in avionics and radar for the AWACS which is presently being developed. However, the DRDO warned that the Boeing or Airbus platform will inflate the price of the AWACS.

Interesting, but I expected that it couldn't be as capable as the Swedish Erieye system. What I find kind of strange are IAF comments, didn't they knew that the EMB 145 cannot fly above that altitude before they ordered it? Also Beoing and Airbus platforms should be in a total different class as the EMB 145, which makes it not a cost-effective addition to A50 Phalcons anymore.

 

[indushek]

Interesting, but I expected that it couldn't be as capable as the Swedish Erieye system. What I find kind of strange are IAF comments, didn't they knew that the EMB 145 cannot fly above that altitude before they ordered it? Also Beoing and Airbus platforms should be in a total different class as the EMB 145, which makes it not a cost-effective addition to A50 Phalcons anymore.

Nothing new these kind of intermediate changes in an ongoing project is what that has made LCA as it is now in addition to DRDo's inefficiency. God knows when these fellers will learn

 

[sathya]

is it possible to use the current emb aircraft for coast gaurd later

 

[sancho]

is it possible to use the current emb aircraft for coast gaurd later

As an AEW aircraft? Why should the coast guard need that for? More likely would be IN, by the fact that they already are searching for shore based AWACS, but the question is, how capable is the DRDO system in air to sea surveillance?

 

[BoB's]

The first of three EMB 145I Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft platforms, ordered by the Indian government for IAF, had its successful ‘official’ maiden flight at Embraer’s headquarters, in São José do Campos, today. The flight is said to have performed all planned tests successfully.