Indian Army tender procurement of more than 40,000 carbines

[breeze]

Indian Army tender procurement of more than tens of millions of rounds of ammunition

and 33.6 million rounds of bullets.

Indian army has to import even bullets was not a joke after all.

 

[Water Car Engineer]

Look mate,no offenses..but would you carry a INSAS and go to a battle when you know it is a terrible rifle?

The Indian Army took the first step and armed all of its troops with INSAS and the result is in front of everyone who has used an INSAS or knows anyone who has used it.The thing is that it hasnt still being improved and the INSAS LMG is just a piece of crap.Whoever made that LMG i am 1000% sure doesnt know the need of an LMG in a battle.

INSAS not only gets jammed but believe me on this that i have heard soldiers saying that they shot at a terrorist with their INSAS and the terrorist got up and fired back at them...what would you call it now?I think its the most useless weapon in the Indian army..the SLR was a much better weapon than this and AK is incomparable inspite of being decadeds old.

If cheap is the thing then i would say AKs are the best.But we are missing a point here..its easy to sit in our AC bedrooms and talk about indigenisation but we are loosing good men in the battlefield who give their all to serve the nation.They deserve better and i am not asking for cool uniforms and gear..just 3 things...a good rifle,a good helmet and a good bulletproof..thatsit.

Those of them designing the product sitting in big cities if cant do their work properly should not blame the Army for not choosing their product..its like the student blaming the teacher for failing in an exam where it was his fault.

Suggest people here to interact with the army guys and know the truth..i am sure they are friendly and would share their experiences with those who think it is a very good weapon.

Thank you coldheart for your input, it's just disappointing for a nation that's building stealth destroyers/frigates/corvettes, attack helicopters, nuke subs, ACs, tanks ,etc, etc, etc but can't make a decent rifle.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

^^ no need to feel gloomy we just need more pvt participation in firearms development everything with firearms in India is made by OFB and with a market of over a billion people they can afford to let quality slip and this is what makes it bad for our army the INSAS rifle had both design flaws and crappy manufacturing quality which is why it did not preform well in Kargil.

 

[tyagi]

Does anybody knows which carbines are participating ??



4. Baretta CX4 Storm Carbine

dude it ain't gonna be cx4 because it is 9mm caliber wepon and the tender is for 5.56 caliber


Beretta manufacturer 5.56 caliber ARX 160

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YS8eAiDUzs

 

[LiberalAtheist]

i think that we should get the SIG 5.56mm carbine. reliable,modular,modern it is perfect for IA

 

[saumyasupratik]

Look mate,no offenses..but would you carry a INSAS and go to a battle when you know it is a terrible rifle?

The Indian Army took the first step and armed all of its troops with INSAS and the result is in front of everyone who has used an INSAS or knows anyone who has used it.The thing is that it hasnt still being improved and the INSAS LMG is just a piece of crap.Whoever made that LMG i am 1000% sure doesnt know the need of an LMG in a battle.

INSAS not only gets jammed but believe me on this that i have heard soldiers saying that they shot at a terrorist with their INSAS and the terrorist got up and fired back at them...what would you call it now?I think its the most useless weapon in the Indian army..the SLR was a much better weapon than this and AK is incomparable inspite of being decadeds old.

If cheap is the thing then i would say AKs are the best.But we are missing a point here..its easy to sit in our AC bedrooms and talk about indigenisation but we are loosing good men in the battlefield who give their all to serve the nation.They deserve better and i am not asking for cool uniforms and gear..just 3 things...a good rifle,a good helmet and a good bulletproof..thatsit.

Those of them designing the product sitting in big cities if cant do their work properly should not blame the Army for not choosing their product..its like the student blaming the teacher for failing in an exam where it was his fault.

Suggest people here to interact with the army guys and know the truth..i am sure they are friendly and would share their experiences with those who think it is a very good weapon.

Are you questioning the round or the rifle itself.Because from your post it seems clear you are giving the disadvantages the 5.56mm faces.5.56mm fired from the INSAS, M16, M4, TAR-21 or even the F2000 would give the same result.So there's no point in saying that the rifle doesn't seem to meet the requirement.INSAS in 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm might give preferable characteristics in some fields but not in everything.Same can be said of any other rifle made.

Also the problem isn't in the design of the INSAS, it's in the manufacture of the rifles.OFB tends to produce low quality products, this is evident in the workmanship of most of their small-arms and ammunition.

What's wrong with the LMG.It wasn't designed to be a belt-fed LMG it was designed to be like a Light-support weapon like the L86 and RPK, nothing wrong in that.Actually helps in logistics.It was actually the army who asked for such a weapon not the guys in DRDO.
Although a dedicated section level belt-fed light machine gun in my opinion is needed as well like the Minimi, Negev and MG4.

INSAS could do with more improvements like standard 30 round magazines, Rail interface systems, 3 Round-Burst and Automatic selector lever and accesories like Reflex sights, Holographics sights, Telescopic Combat sights, Foregrips and NV Sights as well.Specialised Designated Marksman Rifle variant with semi-auto only and a heavier much more accurised barrel would also be a good addition.

In my opinion most of the small arms in the Army's arsenal need to be changed.The 1A1 Carbine and 1B Machine Gun being the foremost.Even the MAG MG2A1 need to be changed.Almost none of the MAG's in Indian service have the standard Bi-Pod and Buttstock common in the western MAGs.They are only used as Tripod Mounted Medium Machine Guns or are vehicle mounted.Using them without the buttstock is quite awkward as well.The american M240B for that matter which is an improved variant of the MAG can be fired from the shoulder, from the bipod as well as from a tripod, which makes it a more versatile weapon than the one we currently have in service and the increase in weight is only 1.5KG from the original 11Kg MAG 2A1 produced by OFB.

most of the deaths that occurred on the Indian side in the Kargil war had to do with when the rifle jammed or failed in the middle of combat the IA has also felt dissatisfied with the camo its bright orange camo is unsuitable for conflict especially in the mountains of Kashmir its no wonder why RR and IA jawans in J&K are now using Czech or Bulgarian AK's

It's because of the 7.62x39mm rounds which offers more stopping power that the 5.56mm NATO and not the rifle design.INSAS design is rugged and reliable as much as an AKM is.It's the construction of that rifle by OFB that's poor not the design.

 

[tyagi]

Even the M 16s had been jammed during Vietnam war,did the USMC discard them??NO.
Then why should we replace the INSAS when they are working fine??And name a single 5.56mm NATO assault rifle that costs only 400 $ peq piece.

Home steers clear of AK-47 row

The deal with the Bulgarian company came after one-and-a-half months of negotiations by the Price Negotiating Committee.

‘‘The PNC was able to bring down of prices to $155 dollars each for Fixed Butt and $163 each for Folding Butt rifles, against the quoted price of $184 and $193,’’ the statement said.

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^^ A big problem is the huge bribes paid by foreign suppliers which the domestic industry cannot match.

This is why severe steps are being taken to fight corruption. Look at recent blacklistings, this was done because of corruption involving the OFB.

 

[wild_fire1979]

Indian made rifles are considered the worst ever made here in the US. Someone managed to get their hands on an Insas and he said that the rifle is cheaply made with a very very sub-standard material and finish.

The best part that he mentioned was that looking at the rifle he could tell that the folks who made this took no pride in their work. That sounds just about correct when it comes to PSUs. People their work to be govt's Jamai and opposed to produce quality product. I was so ashamed of the feedback

I have a FS2000 in US. An excellent rifle

 

[angeldemon_007]

dude it ain't gonna be cx4 because it is 9mm caliber wepon and the tender is for 5.56 caliber


Beretta manufacturer 5.56 caliber ARX 160

You are right. My mistake, i just looked for Carbine not the caliber.

 

[harpoon]

There was no need for INSAS in the first place. We could have easily produced the AK series in India considering our close relationship with USSR/ Russia. Its frustrating that even now AK is not made in India but we have to import from former Soviet republics.

 

[deckingraj]

Look mate,no offenses..but would you carry a INSAS and go to a battle when you know it is a terrible rifle?

The Indian Army took the first step and armed all of its troops with INSAS and the result is in front of everyone who has used an INSAS or knows anyone who has used it.The thing is that it hasnt still being improved and the INSAS LMG is just a piece of crap.Whoever made that LMG i am 1000% sure doesnt know the need of an LMG in a battle.

INSAS not only gets jammed but believe me on this that i have heard soldiers saying that they shot at a terrorist with their INSAS and the terrorist got up and fired back at the...what would you call it now?I think its the most useless weapon in the Indian army..the SLR was a much better weapon than this and AK is incomparable inspite of being decadeds old.

If cheap is the thing then i would say AKs are the best.But we are missing a point here..its easy to sit in our AC bedrooms and talk about indigenisation but we are loosing good men in the battlefield who give their all to serve the nation.They deserve better and i am not asking for cool uniforms and gear..just 3 things...a good rifle,a good helmet and a good bulletproof..thatsit.

Those of them designing the product sitting in big cities if cant do their work properly should not blame the Army for not choosing their product..its like the student blaming the teacher for failing in an exam where it was his fault.

Suggest people here to interact with the army guys and know the truth..i am sure they are friendly and would share their experiences with those who think it is a very good weapon.

A wrong place to use a rifle which was meant for a very different purpose....It was IA doctrine and the logic was - It is more beneficial to injure an enemy soldier instead of killing him during a war...bcoz if injured some of the enemy soldiers will need to take care of him thereby weakening their assault/defenses....An injured soldier is unlikely to participate further in the war and thus the logic was/is perfect...However when it comes to terrorist who are hell bent on killing or getting killed this rifle is of no use...In fact we have already changed the rifles to AK-47 atleast in Kashmir, no??

 

[alok mishra]

why they are selecting any indian rifle. MINSAS already proofed it's capability. i think they select these foreign arms only for money.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Are you questioning the round or the rifle itself.Because from your post it seems clear you are giving the disadvantages the 5.56mm faces.5.56mm fired from the INSAS, M16, M4, TAR-21 or even the F2000 would give the same result.So there's no point in saying that the rifle doesn't seem to meet the requirement.INSAS in 7.62x39mm or 7.62x51mm might give preferable characteristics in some fields but not in everything.Same can be said of any other rifle made.

Also the problem isn't in the design of the INSAS, it's in the manufacture of the rifles.OFB tends to produce low quality products, this is evident in the workmanship of most of their small-arms and ammunition.

What's wrong with the LMG.It wasn't designed to be a belt-fed LMG it was designed to be like a Light-support weapon like the L86 and RPK, nothing wrong in that.Actually helps in logistics.It was actually the army who asked for such a weapon not the guys in DRDO.
Although a dedicated section level belt-fed light machine gun in my opinion is needed as well like the Minimi, Negev and MG4.

INSAS could do with more improvements like standard 30 round magazines, Rail interface systems, 3 Round-Burst and Automatic selector lever and accesories like Reflex sights, Holographics sights, Telescopic Combat sights, Foregrips and NV Sights as well.Specialised Designated Marksman Rifle variant with semi-auto only and a heavier much more accurised barrel would also be a good addition.

In my opinion most of the small arms in the Army's arsenal need to be changed.The 1A1 Carbine and 1B Machine Gun being the foremost.Even the MAG MG2A1 need to be changed.Almost none of the MAG's in Indian service have the standard Bi-Pod and Buttstock common in the western MAGs.They are only used as Tripod Mounted Medium Machine Guns or are vehicle mounted.Using them without the buttstock is quite awkward as well.The american M240B for that matter which is an improved variant of the MAG can be fired from the shoulder, from the bipod as well as from a tripod, which makes it a more versatile weapon than the one we currently have in service and the increase in weight is only 1.5KG from the original 11Kg MAG 2A1 produced by OFB.



It's because of the 7.62x39mm rounds which offers more stopping power that the 5.56mm NATO and not the rifle design.INSAS design is rugged and reliable as much as an AKM is.It's the construction of that rifle by OFB that's poor not the design.

No i was not talking about the rounds because Tavors dont have the same problem moreover they never get jammed are very accurate and easy to carry.

Regarding the INSAS LMG..The INSAS LMG uses 5.56 round which is useless for an LMG for providing cover to troops and intead of having a magazine box it has 30 rounds magazine.How can it even destroy hideouts or bunker i wonder...thatswhy troops of the IA till now prefer to either carry the Bren machine gun or the PKM.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

A wrong place to use a rifle which was meant for a very different purpose....It was IA doctrine and the logic was - It is more beneficial to injure an enemy soldier instead of killing him during a war...bcoz if injured some of the enemy soldiers will need to take care of him thereby weakening their assault/defenses....An injured soldier is unlikely to participate further in the war and thus the logic was/is perfect...However when it comes to terrorist who are hell bent on killing or getting killed this rifle is of no use...In fact we have already changed the rifles to AK-47 atleast in Kashmir, no??

Yes i have heard about this logic but i dont agree with it because whoever thinks like that is clearly thinking of the enemy as cowards who wont fight back after getting hit which is not the case.We got brave people all around the world and this logic clearly puts our soldiers in risk coz we may injure them...but they will surely kill us!