Indian Air Force to replace crashed C-130J medium-lift aircraft

[danger007]

The proposal is not only for IAF but also for civil aviation as no big commercial plane can be used on shorter runways of norteast.

yup I know..but if I am not wrong atleast 16 to 24 is for IAF..

 

[Agent_47]

False reporting! There was always only an option of 6 more and the production of the C17 is going to end next year with just 12 of them being produced, that doesn't have a customer yet. So if we take the optional 6, there only would be the possibility to get 6 more and as Flight Global reports, Austalia is interested in buying at least 2 of them.
Not sure where the author got the order of 8, but he definitely confused something and yes, no matter how much we order, it will be an expensive order.

https://twitter.com/x/status/501643207948505089

 

[NairLand]

It is too expensive to replace Avros with and would kill the MTA project. Why would you want to procure a foreign aircraft with some licence productions in India, if you can own 50% of an aircraft in the same class, developed and designed for your requirements, with far more industrial benefits and safe logistics and maintenance options in India?
There is no denying that the C130J is a good aircraft, but if we have the choice to have an own / jointly developed one, that is clearly the better choice. The only sad thing is, that we didn't joined the Brazilian aircraft development, which seems to gain a good lot of orders.

If they are winding up production they will go for ToT for a reasonable price. That is a much better deal.

Not only do we get to own the a/c, we also get to service the C130 that is there globally. More than 2,300 a/c till date. Sooner or later the parts will run out and become very expensive.

 

[Screambowl]

set up tools, invest in manufacturing to create

 

[sancho]

https://twitter.com/x/status/501643207948505089

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal N A K Browne told India Strategic in an interview that Boeing would deliver all the already ordered 10 aircraft between 2013 and 2014, and that once the IAF was satisfied with the performance of the aircraft after induction, six more would be ordered. By 2015, the induction of all the 16 aircraft should be complete.

“The C-17 Globemaster III aircraft are expected to be inducted between 2013 and 2015,” he said.

Air Chief Marshal Browne said that IAF had actually planned to acquire 20 aircraft but right now, it had the approval for 16 aircraft from the Ministry of Defence, 10 in the first lot and then six more after the first few of the aircraft are received.

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF will induct its C 17 Globemasters from 2013

If they are winding up production they will go for ToT for a reasonable price. That is a much better deal.

Not only do we get to own the a/c, we also get to service the C130 that is there globally. More than 2,300 a/c till date. Sooner or later the parts will run out and become very expensive.

Not really buddy, we struggle to get any ToT from the US and now that they will stop production of the C17s, they won't give us anything for free either. And who told you that we get to service C130s? It's about outsourcing a production line to India, for the Indian need. That's what they do with Turkey or Japan too, when they buy US equipment, but that doesn't mean they source everything for the global market from these countries.

 

[Agent_47]

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF will induct its C 17 Globemasters from 2013

Yah,i know that.
But, Saurav usually don't talk crap.
maybe it was inside info before.

 

[NairLand]

Not really buddy, we struggle to get any ToT from the US and now that they will stop production of the C17s, they won't give us anything for free either. And who told you that we get to service C130s? It's about outsourcing a production line to India, for the Indian need. That's what they do with Turkey or Japan too, when they buy US equipment, but that doesn't mean they source everything for the global market from these countries.

C-130 is 1954 technology. It's being phased out and the production is winding up. There is no better opportunity for the US to transfer tech and earn some good will. It will need some deft diplomacy but is doable.

By having manufacture here we become part of the C 130 supply chain. That is what I mean by servicing old a/c.

 

[sancho]

Yah,i know that.
But, Saurav usually don't talk crap.
maybe it was inside info before.

There might had been a requirement for 24 heavy lift aircrafts to replace IL 76 in the past (not necessarily 24 x C17s back then, but the fact remains that we only ordered 10 with 6 optionals. That's why I said that the opening article confused things, since the order of 8 didin't fit to any official statement. And now with the production line getting closed, 12 is simply the max that can be sold to other customers, that might have interest. Lets see what the MoD and IAF now will decide and how many C17s will be left for them, more importantly at what costs (!!!), I hope they finally make a propper evaluation of the options and the actual requirement this time.

C-130 is 1954 technology. It's being phased out and the production is winding up. There is no better opportunity for the US to transfer tech and earn some good will. It will need some deft diplomacy but is doable.

By having manufacture here we become part of the C 130 supply chain. That is what I mean by servicing old a/c.

You are mistaken, we are talking about the C130"J", the latest varient which entered service just a few years ago and will continue to be exported for years, just that the competition now will become stronger with KC 390s, MTA, A400 and possibly XC-2s arriving on the export market. So the old C130s have nothing to do with a possible production line in India and again, the ToT limitations comes from their side and their export laws, as long as that doesn't change, there is no share of critical techs, no matter how many C130Js we would want to buy. That's even the same problem with MMRCA, LUH, or the ATGM competitions.

 

[Agent_47]

There might had been a requirement for 24 heavy lift aircrafts to replace IL 76 in the past (not necessarily 24 x C17s back then, but the fact remains that we only ordered 10 with 6 optionals. That's why I said that the opening article confused things, since the order of 8 didin't fit to any official statement. And now with the production line getting closed, 12 is simply the max that can be sold to other customers, that might have interest. Lets see what the MoD and IAF now will decide and how many C17s will be left for them, more importantly at what costs (!!!), I hope they finally make a propper evaluation of the options and the actual requirement this time.

yes, i fully understand. But, the article clearly states that the third batch will be 8 and second batch 6 (already decided).So,third batch can be a new public info.Why else they go in that sequence ?
As you said, considering the cost + production line + our decision making speed + current budget requirements the last 8 will just remain as a requirement. Hope above constrains won't affect the second batch order

Also,

https://twitter.com/x/status/501648443534614528

 

[sancho]

yes, i fully understand. But, the article clearly states that the third batch will be 8 and second batch 6 (already decided).So,third batch can be a new public info.Why else they go in that sequence ?

That would had made some sense, but that's not what the article said:

The IAF has projected a requirement of a second lot of eight C-17s followed by a third lot of another six

So the author has somehow made up a 2nd order of 8, which never was considered so far and then added another 6, which in total is not possible anymore, because of the end of the production.

considering the cost + production line + our decision making speed + current budget requirements

Actually more than our budget or decision makings, the critical point might be the unit cost Boeing is asking for the C 17s. Even in the initial deal, we know that Boeing actuallly wanted a higher price and (if at all), the price was only reduced after President Obama intervened. Maybe we have a contract which gives us the 6 optionals at the same price, but keep in mind that there are only 12 x C17s left to sell and why should Boeing sell them to us at reduced costs, when they can sell the rest at higher costs to other customers? Some of the Gulf countries paid nearly $700 millions per unit!

 

[Echo_419]

Right...I think we are biggest operator for this plane after USAF at present.
Indian Air Force – 10 C-17s ordered, with six delivered by July 2014.
Royal Air Force – eight C-17ERs.
Royal Australian Air Force – six C-17ERs in service.
United Arab Emirates Air Force – six C-17As in service.

Why UAE even needs such a long range Aircraft

That would had made some sense, but that's not what the article said:



So the author has somehow made up a 2nd order of 8, which never was considered so far and then added another 6, which in total is not possible anymore, because of the end of the production.



Actually more than our budget or decision makings, the critical point might be the unit cost Boeing is asking for the C 17s. Even in the initial deal, we know that Boeing actuallly wanted a higher price and (if at all), the price was only reduced after President Obama intervened. Maybe we have a contract which gives us the 6 optionals at the same price, but keep in mind that there are only 12 x C17s left to sell and why should Boeing sell them to us at reduced costs, when they can sell the rest at higher costs to other customers? Some of the Gulf countries paid nearly $700 millions per unit!

Free money man,they don't earn it so why should they care about it

There might had been a requirement for 24 heavy lift aircrafts to replace IL 76 in the past (not necessarily 24 x C17s back then, but the fact remains that we only ordered 10 with 6 optionals. That's why I said that the opening article confused things, since the order of 8 didin't fit to any official statement. And now with the production line getting closed, 12 is simply the max that can be sold to other customers, that might have interest. Lets see what the MoD and IAF now will decide and how many C17s will be left for them, more importantly at what costs (!!!), I hope they finally make a propper evaluation of the options and the actual requirement this time.



You are mistaken, we are talking about the C130"J", the latest varient which entered service just a few years ago and will continue to be exported for years, just that the competition now will become stronger with KC 390s, MTA, A400 and possibly XC-2s arriving on the export market. So the old C130s have nothing to do with a possible production line in India and again, the ToT limitations comes from their side and their export laws, as long as that doesn't change, there is no share of critical techs, no matter how many C130Js we would want to buy. That's even the same problem with MMRCA, LUH, or the ATGM competitions.

We should keep the focus on MTA at least we know the Russians are reliable & we will gain a lot of know how & Industrial Benefits from this deal & can we ask the Russians to modify one of our many IL-76s as a engine test Aircraft

 

[Abingdonboy]

Firstly great news about the lost Herc being replaced.


Secondly i don't buy the 24 C-17s, I simply don't think it is possible as Boeing has already announced the C-17 production line will shut in 2015 no matter what and there are only 10 or so C-17s up for grabs so there just is no way the IAF can get another 14. As @sancho said, the option has always been for 6 more, this is the first I am hearing about 16. It's possible the journalist has got the numbers confused and the IAF is now interested in an additional 2 C-17s in a 3rd batch for a total of 18 C-17s.

It is a shame the Boeing production line closure has put the IAF in a position where they might desire more C-17s over 16/18 but they won't be able to get them.

 

[Neptune]

..:: India Strategic ::. IAF: IAF will induct its C 17 Globemasters from 2013



Not really buddy, we struggle to get any ToT from the US and now that they will stop production of the C17s, they won't give us anything for free either. And who told you that we get to service C130s? It's about outsourcing a production line to India, for the Indian need. That's what they do with Turkey or Japan too, when they buy US equipment, but that doesn't mean they source everything for the global market from these countries.

TAI is a global market for F-16, proven many times, built more than 300 Vipers and maintainenced a hundred others from countries all over. But as you said, if it's for third parties, you require US approval.

 

[sancho]

Free money man,they don't earn it so why should they care about it

Because money should not be wasted, but used in the more efficient way and additional C17s at high costs but low numbers are not the most efficient choice. Just spending more can't be the answer.

 

[Echo_419]

Because money should not be wasted, but used in the more efficient way and additional C17s at high costs but low numbers are not the most efficient choice. Just spending more can't be the answer.

I was referring to how the UAE people are spending 700 million dollars on a single unit of C-17,they could have gone for A-400m & could have got some industrial benefits.but since they have so much money they decided to get the most expensive thing on the market[general rant on how Gulfies waste money]