Indian aggression at LOC

[halupridol]

From my POV it makes more sense that India caused the latest flare-up to divert Pakistani military resources away from FATA and Balochistan where the TTP and Baloch terrorists have been taking a pounding by the military, .

so,we firing up ur eastern border to provide respite to ttp/bla......if we wished to do that, easier to do that from afghanistan,,,i.e.provide them shelter n supplies,,,without highlighting kashmir,,without any fuss.

plus the added advantage of exacerbating the political and economic problems currently faced by Pakistan due to opposition protests and the floods

thats just ludicrous

Oh I am, and I see the constant "Modi sycophancy" in the Indian media with nonsensical claims about his "foreign policy accomplishments" like "making SriLanka ban ISI spies, US ban F-16 use and the low applause/audience for Sharif in the UN".

oh come on....Indian media has always been like that,,,,,masala

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is not a new thing. That is the norm for any country.

That is what I said ..

Although Nepal, Bhutan and Japan visits were Modi's own initiative.

A leader can visit all the countries he wants - tangible progress and agreements, however, are made when the bureaucracy has laid the groundwork for said agreements/progress.

However your point is about creating public perception. As far as foreign policy is concerned the perception of everyone in India about Modi's foreign policy has been astoundingly positive, even from his opposition parties. In the 100 days report card, Modi got an A on foreign policy from every analyst. Therefore your point that Modi needs to create a situation with Pakistan to boost his "non existent foreign policy" makes no sense.

Modi's "positive public perception" is rooted in the media spin being given to almost everything he has done (or claimed to have done) so far. Maintaining that "positive public perception" requires continued media spin, which in turn requires some sort of even to actually "spin".

 

[kadamba-warrior]

Those ragtag mujaheddin ripped you up so much that ran crying to the big boss of yours.

Do you realize that your own establishment admitted that it was the PA regulars and not the mujahideen?

About ripping us apart: hope you have atleast afforded a proper burial those regulars who fell fighting for you!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

It doesn't take a genius to figure out "infiltration" can and will cause the flare-up.

I did not suggest that "infiltration cannot and will not cause a flare-up", I questioned the Indian claim that infiltration was behind the latest flare-up.

When multiple infiltration attempts fail, it is natural that you provide cover fire. This is by far the best explanation for the flare-up. Ever wondered why such ceasefire violations take place at the same time when the infiltrations can also take place?

There is no credible evidence that the recent flare-ups were caused by infiltration from the Pakistani side, and if the argument is that the infiltration spikes because the "snow is coming", then why wait till the last minute to push infiltrators across the LoC given that the rest of the year is also available?

I am not going to respond to your offtopic gibberish. Enough of Modi, enough of his chest size!!!

As long as Indians keep attributing non-existent foreign policy accomplishments to the man, it is legitimate to attribute such min-numbing to his self-proclaimed chest size.

So let me get this straight!!! You returning with small arm fire (assuming that it was indeed India that started this utter non-sense) will neutralize Indian designs to destabilize both sides of your border???

Why should Pakistan escalate beyond what India is using? Escalating the conflict and using heavier weaponry would only serve to play into Indian hands in eventually causing the diversion of military resources away from FATA and Balochistan.

 

[Bang Galore]

so,we firing up ur eastern border to provide respite to ttp/bla......if we wished to do that, easier to do that from afghanistan,,,i.e.provide them shelter n supplies,,,without highlighting kashmir,,without any fuss.

...and we are supposedly trying to divert their military resources by small arms fire & mortars. Doesn't get sillier.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The same UN & UNMOGIP which has absolutely zero relevance when it comes to Kashmir after Shimla agreement!

Completely false - the Shimla Agreement clearly states in its first clause that, "That the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations shall govern the relations between the two countries."

That should be pretty clear, even to you, that the Simla Agreement in fact reinforced India and Pakistan's commitment to the UN Charter and by extension the UNSC Resolutions on Kashmir.

 

[Chronos]

...and we are supposedly trying to divert their military resources by small arms fire & mortars. Doesn't get sillier.

It is one of the most heavily armed boundaries in the world.

Even a dim witted soldier bored out of his wits taking pot shots at birds can spark a border skirmish.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

...and we are supposedly trying to divert their military resources by small arms fire & mortars. Doesn't get sillier.

Not any "sillier" than Indian claims that a few protests (that continue to diminish significantly with each passing day) would cause Sharif to order a border/LoC escalation to "divert attention", or that "the PA chose the absolute last minute before Winter sets in to push in infiltrators, despite having had the majority of the rest of the year to do so if it wanted to".

 

[Chronos]

Modi is a seasoned politician, there is nothing to suggest that he believes that Pakistan will keel & roll over. That can be understood by his act of calling the Pakistani PM for his swearing in, that alone would have disappointed a whole horde of his fans. Modi is in the middle of an election campaign taking flak for not being available to deal with the situation on the border. Hardly something he would have chosen to deliberately engineer. While we will disagree about who started this, I can only point out there is very little logic for Indians having deliberately escalated without provocation. The PM has had, as reported in India, a highly successful visit to the U.S. where by all accounts he ignored Pakistan. Makes no sense to bring Pakistan back into the limelight by firing at the border, not something that will have immediate effect either militarily or diplomatically & certainly not politically.

As for showing no quarter, no one is asking you to. The Indian army will take care of its business, just as it did last year under a different government. The border has been live for a substantial period of time, it will take a great deal of cussedness to suggest that this is somehow Modi's doing.




You think that is what happens with small arms and mortar fire?

Modi has had somewhat of a honeymoon in regards to goreign policy. Hard to see what he gains by escalating a border skirmish.

Congress has already raised criticism. Don't know why he would jeopardise his image by engaging in and escalating a skirmish.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You would do well to remember that the "same professional army" (especially the same "special forces") sought help of the ragtag Mujahideen during Kargil.

So expecting us to believe that PA will always act like a professional unit will not fly. Not after their Kargil sham!!!

Do you realize that your own establishment admitted that it was the PA regulars and not the mujahideen?

First you said it was "ragtag Mujahideen", then you said that "Pakistan establishment itself admitted that Kargil was fought by regulars and not the Mujahideen", so which is it?

 

[Chronos]

Pakistan has almost always raised the issue at the UN, this year is nothing new. What is new is that Indians are taken aback by Pakistan's continued focus on raising Kashmir at world level because they thought that "Modi Sarkaar and his 56 inch chest would subdue Pakistan", and instead they find Pakistan reacting strongly to every action taken by Modi:

1. Modi demands Pakistan not meet with Kashmiri separatists at the last minute - Pakistan says buzz off
2. Modi throws a tantrum and cancels bilateral talks - Pakistan continues to raise the issue of UNSC resolutions on Kashmir
3. Modi escalates violence along the IB and LoC - Pakistan responds in kind and escalates on her end as well

Indians and the Indian media have had a rude awakening about Modi and his 56 inch chest, which is where all these histrionics are coming from.

Indian media didn't even give a damn or as The Hindu did criticise Modi for being too hasty in cancelling talks.

Modi ignored pakistan after meeting Sharif.

His foreign policy ha been mainly concentrated on increasing trade and increasing FDI to India.

Until the border skirmishes, Indian Media mainly covered Modi's foreign policy talks and the economy. They couldn't care less about what sharif did.

Yeah, the Indian trolls in PDF did.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Congress has already raised criticism. Don't know why he would jeopardise his image by engaging in and escalating a skirmish.

Sharif is banking on economic progress to maintain his own mandate, especially with the PTI making so many inroads into his base, and the majority of his term still left to play out - he has even less reason to escalate the IB/LoC situation and damage Pakistan's economy further, especially given the recent floods.

The Pakistani Army itself is facing a resource crunch and needs the economy to grow in order to fund new equipment purchases, not to mention the impact on the military's business holdings, so the argument that the recent escalation is for the sake of "a few dozen infiltrators before the winter sets in" or to "raise the Kashmir issue" makes little sense.

 

[halupridol]

Not any "sillier" than Indian claims that a few protests (that continue to diminish significantly with each passing day) would cause Sharif to order a border/LoC escalation to "divert attention", or that "the PA chose the absolute last minute before Winter sets in to push in infiltrators, despite having had the majority of the rest of the year to do so if it wanted to".

u playing the devils advocate
nevertheless our claim holds more water then urs

 

[kadamba-warrior]

I did not suggest that "infiltration cannot and will not cause a flare-up", I questioned the Indian claim that infiltration was behind the latest flare-up.

There is no credible evidence that the recent flare-ups were caused by infiltration from the Pakistani side, and if the argument is that the infiltration spikes because the "snow is coming", then why wait till the last minute to push infiltrators across the LoC given that the rest of the year is also available?

It is not a laboratory experiment where one can provide you with irrefutable evidence.

- It is an open secret (something that has been admitted by your establishment on a number of occasions) that there have always been infiltrations from your side.
- It is also well known that India now has a much tighter border control -- resulting into many failed infiltration attempts.
- And the infiltration window for this year is going to close in a matter of weeks, thereby making the attempts more desperate.

Now go, figure out why a "professional army" might be compelled to try and distract the defenders with some small arms fire!

There is no credible evidence that the recent flare-ups were caused by infiltration from the Pakistani side, and if the argument is that the infiltration spikes because the "snow is coming", then why wait till the last minute to push infiltrators across the LoC given that the rest of the year is also available?

I think you missed earlier discussions. The point is, Pakistanis are potentially playing according a much bigger game plan. That is to try and escalate the LOC situation internationally, thereby pressurizing India to the negotiating table. Makes sense since India refused to talk!

Why should Pakistan escalate beyond what India is using? Escalating the conflict and using heavier weaponry would only serve to play into Indian hands in eventually causing the diversion of military resources away from FATA and Balochistan.

You are contradicting yourself, chief!!! You have to make up your mind first. You accused us earlier of not only trying to destabilize your Western front but also taking advantage of floods/political instability to spread chaos through out Pakistan.

How else do you explain Indian small arm fire?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

u playing the devils advocate

How could you tell?

nevertheless our claim holds more water then urs

That kind of comment is what makes these sorts of pointless discussions keep going around in circles ... the more likely reasons were covered much earlier in the thread by other posters, that a handful of infiltrators (on their own accord, not pushed in by the PA/IA) were spotted and attacked (or carried out a strike on one side of the LoC) by one side, causing the other to perceive that they were being attacked and respond in kind.

As Ravi pointed out, it is a heavily militarized border where the slightest provocation can be misconstrued and cause a chain reaction, especially given the lack of trust and limited fora for resolving these situationsl