What's new

Indian Activist speaks about rampant caste bias among the Indian diaspora in the United States.

That's right. Cover your eyes but also stick your fingers in your ears and be sure to sing "la la la this isn't really happening"..



"As for Prakash Shah, he is quite open about his political position. He recently invited Makarand Paranjape, an extreme-right Hindu ideologue and Professor at Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi to speak at QMUL, and listened approvingly while Paranjape heaped scorn on his Dalit students. In his book 'Against Caste in British Law', Shah describes the legislation as a 'threat to Indian businesses and to the well-being and existence of the Indian communities' which would cause distress and create “a climate of intimidation”.

Shah's melodramatic language suggests that what is at stake here is not just the legislation outlawing caste discrimination, but a demonstration of the power of right-wing Hindu forces in Britain and their ability to get their own way. "

...Perhaps some of the wise Indian pdf-ers can explain why upper caste academics and politicians are RESISTING a specific law outlawing casteism if - as we are reassured on this very thread by some of our easterly associates @suyog chavan - caste is simply an administrative division of labour and the evil terrible British turned it into some evil discriminatory vehicle. Ironic that the same British are now warned by the usual "Hindu moderates and liberals" that a law against caste discrimination would be a bad idea.

@Musings @xeuss
Oh please, this kind of BS, if it is happening.. we can rest assured that it's happening among the Pakistani diaspora too. A lot of you lot probably won't hire an Ahmadi for reasons of religious bias (caste discrimination, essentially). Most Shias probably wont consider a salafist type for employment in their business too.. it goes on.

There probably are some gora nativists there that wont consider either of our lots for employment in their workspaces.

An "anti-caste discrimination" law singleing out just the Hindus would be discriminatory in that it, by law, would then be targeting just the Hindus.

You're either blinded by hate or just do not have a good grasp on Indian society and are hell bent on believing only the worst of it.
 
I do and I have issues how you whities treated blacks in Africa/America and Effectively wiped away Native Americans, Native canadians, Native Aussies and New Zea Landers. Queen/Churchill starved Bangladeshis to death.

All this in name of civilizing us.

Well I can Google the cemetery locations of some of these people and you can go stomp on their graves for a few hours to make yourself more happy. Otherwise no use getting upset. Americans don't fly to Japan to stomp on Tojo.
 
Indeed, the casteism extends to include Indian origin Christians and Muslims, who smile wryly over the blatant discriminatory efforts against them for the now firmly engrained "crime" their ancestors "committed" by converting out of Dalitism in their native Hindustan.
A 1.4 billion Indians are overflowing out of that hell hole like overbreeding rats out of a hole. As they flee India and migrate to the West they are carrying their communal casteist baggage with them. The matrimonial columns in UK papers read like something out of an Indian newspaper:
"Wheat complexioned Bride needed for Punjabi Bhardwaj Brahmin boy , IT professionally well employed..."
The expat South Asian communities once fairly united are now riven with hatred that has filtered down to the third generation.
Soon UK and Canada will have their first communal riot in the aftermath of an Indian Pakistani cricket match.
The Royal Canadian Mounted Police and London Metropolitan Police have already war gamed the situation and carried out exercises how to control the rioting when it breaks out.
In the USA the chances of a Hindu Muslim communal riot is much less as the populations are widely separated and dispersed.
Looks like you don't have any idea, what caste PM MODI is ???:laughcry:
We all know he is an OBC but a wannabe Brahmin with the RSS Saraswats from Nagpur holding a trishul into his backside. 😅
 
...Perhaps some of the wise Indian pdf-ers can explain why upper caste academics and politicians are RESISTING a specific law outlawing casteism if - as we are reassured on this very thread by some of our easterly associates @suyog chavan - caste is simply an administrative division of labour and the evil terrible British turned it into some evil discriminatory vehicle. Ironic that the same British are now warned by the usual "Hindu moderates and liberals" that a law against caste discrimination would be a bad idea.
perhaps mate,
If you don't know, let me tell you, " that a law against caste discrimination" is already imposed in India,
Article 15 of the Constitution of India prohibits discrimination based on caste and Article 17 declared the practice of untouchability to be illegal. In 1955, India enacted the Untouchability (Offences) Act (renamed in 1976, as the Protection of Civil Rights Act).

So hell with what the UK politics is all about, don't care. :dirol:
We all know he is an OBC but a wannabe Brahmin with the RSS Saraswats from Nagpur holding a trishul into his backside. 😅
wannabe brahmin lol ///:laughcry:
Are you talking about the Gandhi family.:haha:
What about the caste of President of the Republic of India. ??
 
Last edited:
For a informed opinion on the matter watch this report by the esteemed Christian Amanpour of CNN on the "Untouchables" who possibly number nearly same as the population of USA at 270 million in India. @Hamartia Antidote


This is so stupid I can't even get passed the 3 minute mark as I'm shaking my head too much.

I thought it was bad when an Indian co-worker of mine was picking out a wife and had this color chart thing with 20 shades of brown and was holding the girls' pictures up to it debating their particular shade number.

Him: Hey do you think she's this shade..
Me: Get way from me..I don't want any part in this. No way. Ask somebody else.


Whities have blood on their hands.

Well after watching the above video I'm not surprised
 
Last edited:
No one takes manusmriti seriously not even the brahmins or the RSS,
and to be precise Manusmriti is not the religious text, smriti means views of the individual or author,
Manu (i.e the author of manusmriti) wrote his smriti (smriti is Sanskrit word for views or ideas) in his book called manusmriti.
there are total of 20 smritis other than the manusmriti written by different authors.
But communists wouldn't find your suitable propaganda in those 20 smritis.
So here we go Manu.:big_boss:

Then you cant be a communist,
A consumate word,
>HYPOCRITE<.:big_boss:
No one takes Manusmriti seriously?
Not even BR Ambedkar who wrote the Indian constitution?🤪🤪
Check :
perhaps mate,
If you don't know, let me tell you, " that a law against caste discrimination" is already imposed in India,
Article 15 of the Constitution of India prohibits discrimination based on caste and Article 17 declared the practice of untouchability to be illegal. In 1955, India enacted the Untouchability (Offences) Act (renamed in 1976, as the Protection of Civil Rights Act).

So hell with what the UK politics is all about, don't care. :dirol:

wannabe brahmin lol ///:laughcry:
Are you talking about the Gandhi family.:haha:
What about the caste of President of the Republic of India. ??
Also a wannabe Brahmin.
Just like Karn and Vibheeshna
😝😝
From: Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's Essay.
Manu and the Shudras:
Under the Maratha rule any one other than a Brahmin uttering a Veda Mantrawas liable to have his tongue cut off and as a matter of fact the tongues of several Sonars (goldsmiths) were actually cut off by the order of the Peshwa for their daring to utter the Vedas contrary to law.

All over India Brahmin was exempt from capital punishment. He could not be hanged even if he committed murder.

Under the Peshwas distinction was observed in the punishment of the criminals according to the caste. Hard labour and death were punishments mostly visited on the Untouchables[f10].

Under the Peshwas Brahmin clerks had the privilege of their goods being exempted from certain duties and their imported corn being carried to them without any ferry charges; and Brahmin landlords had their lands assessed at distinctly lower rates than those levied from other classes. In Bengal the amount of rent for land varied with the caste of the occupant and if the tenant was an Untouchable he had to pay the highest rent.

These facts will show that Manu though born some time before B. C. or sometime after A. D. is not dead and while the Hindu Kings reigned, justice between Hindu and Hindu, touchable and untouchable was rendered according to the Law of Manu and that law was avowedly based on inequality.


 
Last edited:
No one takes Manusmriti seriously?
Not even BR Ambedkar who wrote the Indian constitution?🤪🤪
Check :

Also a wannabe Brahmin.
Just like Karn and Vibheeshna
😝😝
From: Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's Essay.
Manu and the Shudras:
Under the Maratha rule any one other than a Brahmin uttering a Veda Mantrawas liable to have his tongue cut off and as a matter of fact the tongues of several Sonars (goldsmiths) were actually cut off by the order of the Peshwa for their daring to utter the Vedas contrary to law.

All over India Brahmin was exempt from capital punishment. He could not be hanged even if he committed murder.

Under the Peshwas distinction was observed in the punishment of the criminals according to the caste. Hard labour and death were punishments mostly visited on the Untouchables[f10].

Under the Peshwas Brahmin clerks had the privilege of their goods being exempted from certain duties and their imported corn being carried to them without any ferry charges; and Brahmin landlords had their lands assessed at distinctly lower rates than those levied from other classes. In Bengal the amount of rent for land varied with the caste of the occupant and if the tenant was an Untouchable he had to pay the highest rent.

These facts will show that Manu though born some time before B. C. or sometime after A. D. is not dead and while the Hindu Kings reigned, justice between Hindu and Hindu, touchable and untouchable was rendered according to the Law of Manu and that law was avowedly based on inequality.

1. Manu Smriti hails from an era when even the concept of birth-based caste system did not exist. Thus Manu Smriti nowhere supports a social system based on birth. Maharshi Manu took inspiration from Vedas (refer Rigveda 10.10.11-12, Yajurveda 31.10-11, Atharvaveda 19.6.5-6) and proposed a social system based on qualities, actions and nature of the individual.
Manu Smriti and Caste System


2. This is called Varna System. Now the very word Varna derived from root word “Vrinja”
means “Choice“. A similar usage happens in common used word “Varan” meaning “choosing” or “Var” meaning a husband chosen by the girl. This also shows that in Vedic system the girl had complete rights to choose her husband.

3. The biggest proof of Manu Smriti proposing Varna System and NOT Caste System is that in the first Chapter of Manu Smriti, there is mention of origin of 4 Varnas and no mention of castes or gotras. Had caste or gotra been important, Manu would have mentioned which castes belong to Brahmins, which to Kshatriyas, which to Vaishyas and which to Shudras.

This also means that those who feel proud in calling themselves Brahmins or upper-caste by birth have no evidence to prove so. They can at best prove that a few generations of their forefathers used to also call themselves upper-caste. But there is no way to prove that they were upper-castes since inception of civilization. And when they cannot prove so, what right do they have to allege that a so-called birth-based Shudra was also not a Brahmin several generations ago? And that they themselves were not Shudras a few generation ago!

4. In fact Manu Smriti 3.109 clearly states that one who eats by glorifying his Gotra or Family is considered an eater of his own vomit. Thus, as per the Manu Smriti that the self-proclaimed birth-based Brahmins or upper-castes believe in, the very act of glorifying their lineage or gotra to demand special privileges makes them deserving of condemnation.

5. Manu Smriti 2.136 states that one earns respect due to wealth, company, age, actions and knowledge in increasing order. There is no mention of family, gotra, caste, lineage and other non-factors to demand or earn respect.

Migration within Varnas

6. Manu Smriti 10.65 asserts that Brahmin can become Shudra and Shudra can become Brahmin. Similarly Kshtariyas and Vaishyas can also change their Varnas.

7. Manu Smriti 9.335: If a Shudra (uneducated) serves the educated ones, is polite, devoid of ego and stays in respectful company of knowledgeable ones, he/ she is considered as having a noble birth and stature.

8. There are several shlokas in Manusmriti that state that a person belonging to high Varna falls down to level of a Shudra (uneducated) if he does not conduct noble deeds. For example,

2.104: A person who does not worship the Supreme Lord twice daily should be considered a Shudra.

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 13.0px 0.0px; line-height: 19.0px; font: 13.0px Georgia} 2.172. He who has not been initiated with teaching of the Vedas is a Sudra.

4.245: A Brahmin acquires brilliance through company of noble persons and avoiding bad company. On contrary, if he indulges in bad company, he becomes a Shudra.


Thus clearly, Brahmin refers to a scholarly person who conducts noble deeds. And Shudra refers to an uneducated person. This has nothing to do with birth in any manner.

2.168: A Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya who puts efforts in other areas except understanding and following the Vedic precepts becomes a Shudra and his future generations also suffer from ignorance of Vedas.

Thus, as per Manu Smriti, almost the entire population of India today, barring few exceptions, is Shudra because we do not abide by the Vedic concepts and are indulged in anti-Vedic activities – corruption, casteism, selfishness, superstitions, irrationality, gender-discrimination, sycophancy, immorality etc.

2.126: Even if he is a Brahmin otherwise, a person who does not politely respond to a greeting is actually a Shudra (uneducated person).

Even Shudras can teach

9. Though Shudra means an uneducated person, a Shudra can also become a teacher for specific knowledge that he has. For example,

2.238: One should acquire knowledge even from a person born in a low family otherwise. Similarly, one should accept a noble woman as wife even if her family is otherwise not up to mark.

2.241. If needed, one may acquire knowledge from one who is not a Brahmin; and that he shall follow and serve such a teacher, as long as the instruction lasts.

Status of Brahmin is acquired by deeds and not by name


10. As per Manu Smriti, one has to earn the qualification of Brahmin. During childhood, parents are supposed to send their children for specialized education of Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya depending on observed nature of children. So many Brahmin parents may desire that their children also become Brahmins. However that is not sufficient. One becomes Brahmin only if he completes the education and not merely by taking birth in a Brahmin family or taking admission in Brahmin course of a gurukul.

2.157: A Brahmin devoid of education is equivalent to an elephant made of wood or a deer made of leather. They are merely namesake and not real.

2.28: The body is made fit to be called Brahmin only through study of scriptures, discipline, noble selfless deeds, study of duties, science and meditation, charity and goal oriented actions.

Education is true birth

11. As per Manu, actual birth happens after completion of education. All human beings are Shudras or uneducated when born. Those who complete their education are supposed to have a new birth. Thus they are called Dwija or Twice Born. Those who were unable to complete the education remain Shudra. This has nothing to do with birth or heredity. This is pure meritocracy.

2.148: When a teacher who is well-versed in Vedas teaches a student the science of Gayatri (that summarizes all principles of Vedas and rational living), then the actual birth of the student takes place. This birth is free from risks of death or destruction and leads the student to immortality.

Thus, forget about being a Brahmin, Kshatriya or Vaishya, one is not considered even a human unless he/she receives education.

2.146: The teacher who provides education is a father who is much greater than the father who gave birth. The knowledge provided by the teacher remains with the soul even after the death and leads him to immortality. But the body provided by father destroys when death comes.

2.147: The birth that happens from womb of mother after parents desire for procreation is an ordinary birth. Real birth happens when the person completes his education.


Thus, citing lineage to showcase casteist superiority is an extremely foolish act as per Manu Smriti. Instead of quoting the clan, one becomes superior by showcasing that he is more educated.

10.4: Brahmin, Kashtriya and Vaishya take second birth after education. Shudra who could not complete education is fourth Varna. There is no fifth Varna among Arya or noble people.

This also means that merely because a person did not complete education does not make him a villain. He is still regarded as a noble person if his deeds are noble.

And if he completes the education, he can become a Dwija as well. Thus Shudra is an adjective and NOT a nomenclature for any castes.

Never insult anyone born in lower family
12. To further ensure that one is not insulted or denied opportunities merely because he/she was born in a family where others did not excel in education, wealth or other parameters of success in society, Maharshi Manu laid the rule very clearly:
4.141: Never deny respect and/or rights to a person who is handicapped, uneducated, aged, not handsome, not wealthy or coming from a lower family. These are NOT the parameters to judge a person.

Examples of Varna migration in ancient history


13. The concept of Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra – being merit based and NOT birth based is not merely a theoretical concept. It was practiced in ancient era. The greatest misery befell on us when our misguided ancestors converted this scientific meritocracy into a foolish birth-based system causing all the miseries we face today.

Here are some examples:

a. Aitareya Rishi was son of a Daasa or criminal but became a Brahmin of highest order and wrote Aitareya Brahman and Aitareyopanishad. Aitareya Brahman is considered critical to understand Rigveda.

b. Ailush Rishi was son of a Daasi, gambler and of low character. However he researched on Rigveda and made several discoveries. Not only was he invited by Rishis but also made an Acharya. (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)

c. Satyakaam Jaabaal was son of a prostitute but became a Brahmin.

d. Prishadh was son of King Daksha but became a Shudra. Further he did Tapasya to achieve salvation after repenting. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.14)

Had Tapasya been banned for Shudra as per the fake story from Uttar Ramayan, how could Prishadh do so?

e. Nabhag, son of King Nedishtha became Vaishya. Many of his sons again became Kshatriya. (Vishnu Puran 4.1.13)

f. Dhrist was son of Nabhag (Vaishya) but became Brahmin and his son became Kshatriya (VP 4.2.2)

g. Further in his generation, some became Brahmin again (VP 9.2.23)

h. As per Bhagvat, Agniveshya became Brahmin though born to a king.

i. Rathotar born in Kshatriya family became a Brahmin as per Vishnu Puran and Bhagvat.

j. Haarit became Brahmin though born to Kshatriya (VP 4.3.5)

k. Shaunak became Brahmin though born in Kshatriya family. (VP 4.8.1). In fact, as per Vayu Puran, Vishnu Puran and Harivansh Puran, sons of Shaunak Rishi belonged to all four Varnas.

Similar examples exist of Gritsamad, Veethavya and Vritsamati.

l. Matanga was son of Chandal but became a Brahmin. (Mahabharat Anushasan Parva Chapter 3)

m. Raavan was born from Pulatsya Rishi but became a Rakshas.

n. Pravriddha was son of Raghu King but became a Rakshas.

o. Trishanku was a king but became a Chandal.

p. Sons of Vishwamitra became Shudra. Vishwamitra himself was a Kshatriya who later became a Brahmin.

q. Vidur was son of a servant but became a Brahmin and minister of Hastinapur empire.

r. Vatsa became a Rishi though born to a Shudra (Aitareya Brahman 2.19)

s. Many verses of adulterated Manu Smriti (10.43-44) state that certain castes were earlier Kshtariya but became Shudra later. These verses are adulterated but prove that concept of Varna migration did exist. The castes mentioned are: Paundrak, Audru, Dravid, Kamboj, Yavan, Shak, Parad, Palhava, Cheen, Kirat, Darad, Khash.

t. Mahabharat Anushasana Parva 35.17-18 adds the following to above list: Mekal, Laat, Kanvashira, Shaundik, Daarva, Chaur, Shabar, Barbar.

u. Several gotras are common across Brahmins, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Dalits implying that all of them hailed from same family but rather got entrapped in the stupid casteism.

Respect for Shudras


14. Manu was a great humanitarian. He knew that not all Shudras miss their education deliberately. He also understood that just because one ignored education in early part of his life does not mean that he should be penalized for that mistake for entire life. Thus he ensured that even Shudras get their due respect in society. Thus he never used any insulting adjective for Shudras. On contrary their are several instances of Manu using respectful adjectives for Shudras.

Being vulnerable due to lack of education, Shudras deserve greater sensitivity in treatment from rest of the society as per Manu. We have seen some examples of these earlier.

Here are some more:

3.112: If a Shudra or Vaishya comes as a guest, the family should feed him with due respect.

3.116: A householder should eat from remaining food only after he has fed the scholars and servants (Shudras) to their satisfaction.

2.137: A very old Shudra deserves more respect than anyone else regardless of their wealth, company, age, actions or knowledge. This special provision is accorded only to Shudra.

Vedas are foundation of Manu Smriti

p.p1 {margin: 0.0px 0.0px 13.0px 0.0px; line-height: 19.0px; font: 13.0px Georgia} 15. No text apart from Vedas is free from potential for interpolations. To understand why Vedas are immune to tampering,

That is why Vedas are accorded such high importance in our culture. Vedas form the foundation of everything else and hence if Vedas are conserved, other texts can be derived by seers in future as well.

16. Thus the benchmark for interpreting any other scriptural text is the Vedas. They are to be interpreted and accepted only to extent they comply with Vedas. This is true for ALL texts including Smritis, Brahmans, Mahabharat, Ramayan, Geeta, Upanishads, Ayurveda, Neeti Shastra, Darshans etc.

17. Manu himself announces in the Manu Smriti that Vedas alone form the foundation of Dharma. Refer 2.8-2.11

(Manu 2.8: A learned man after fully scrutinising all this with the eye of knowledge, should, in accordance with the authority of the Vedas, intent on the performance of his duties.)

Thus, it becomes clear that Manu Smriti has to be interpreted ONLY in lines with Vedas.

Shudras have right to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals

18. Vedas very clearly provide right to Shudras (and women) – in fact entire humanity – to study Vedas and conduct Vedic rituals like Yajna. Refer Yajurveda 26.1, Rigveda 10.53.4, Nirukta 3.8 etc.

Thus Manu Smriti also supports the same Vedic truth. That is why nowhere in the context of Upanayan (education initiation) does Manu forbid Upanayan or sacred thread for Shudras. On contrary, one who refuses to accept Sacred Thread of education is called a Shudra!

19. In lines with Vedas, Manu also orders the ruler to ensure that the salary and perks of Shudras be never reduced in any circumstance. (7.125-126, 8.216)

Summary:

To summarize, the assumption of Manu formulating a birth-based caste system is baseless. On contrary, Manu Smriti is vehemently against any reference to family or birth to judge a person. The Varna system of Manu is a pure meritocracy.

Each human has all the 4 Varnas – Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya and Shudra. Manu attempted to organize the predominant Varna of each individual in social context in a manner that aids individual and collective uplift.

We shall review the other two allegations on Manu prescribing harsh punishments for Shudras and preferential treatment for Brahmins; and being anti-woman in subsequent articles.

But we would like to conclude this part from what Manu himself said about fraud and wrong practices.

He says in 4.30 that frauds, wrong practices, deceit, perversion and falsehood should not be respected even by words.

Caste system based on birth is one of the most disgusting fraudulent deceitful perverted and false practices to exist among civilized human beings. And thus, as per Manu and as per Vedas, one should work to destroy this criminal practice by all means – harshest words and strongest actions. To show soft corner to birth-based caste system even in words is against Manu.

Wait Wait Wait

Before you end, I demand you to explain those perverted verses of Manu Smriti that are quoted everywhere to justify birth-based casteism and gender discrimination. I can provide hundreds of such shlokas from Manu Smriti.



That is the point my friend. How can the same Manu Smriti have both verses defending as well as rejecting birth-based casteism? This means that Manu Smriti demands a closer scrutiny. We shall also do the same in a future article. But in summary:

a. The current Manu Smriti is full of interpolated/ adulterated verses that were added much later for various reasons. Almost 50% of Manu Smriti is actually fake.

b. Interpolation is not a problem with Manu Smriti. Apart from Vedas – that are preserved through a unique Patha and Swara method – all other texts of almost all belief systems are prone to modifications, interpolations and deletions. These include Ramayana, Mahabharat, Bible, Quran. Not to talk of texts like Bhavishya Puran that continued to be modified till printing press arrived!

c. Three editions of Ramayan are available today – Dakshinatya, Pashchamottariya and Gaudiya which are different. Even Geetapress Gorakhpur has indicated many chapters as adulterated (Prakshipta). Most scholars agree that Balkanda and Uttarkanda are grossly adulterated.

Similarly Mahabharat is known to be a grossly interpolated text. Garud Puran Brahmakanda 1.59 states that in Kaliyuga many frauds are posing as Brahmins to remove certain shlokas and add new ones in Mahabharat.

Mahabharat Shantiparva 265.9, 4 itself states that Vedic texts clearly prohibit alcohol, fish and meat. All these have been propagated by frauds who have added such verses in scriptures through deceit.

Original version of Bible does not exist today! We only have translations of translations of some translations of the original Bible which no one has ever seen.

Quran also is claimed to be a modified version of original teachings of Muhammad. Refer http://satyagni.com/3118/miracle-islam/

Thus no wonder Manu Smriti – the oldest text on social systems – is also prone to modifications. More so because Manu Smriti historically had the greatest influence in day to day life of each citizen as well as politics of the nation. After all it was like the constitution for centuries. Thus the incentives for a crooked one to interpolate Manu Smriti were very high.

d. When we review Manu Smriti, we find 4 kinds of interpolations: to bring completeness, for selfish reasons, to exaggerate and to bring defects. Most of these interpolations are blatantly obvious. Dr Surendra Kumar has written a detailed translation of Manu Smriti in Hindi that analyzes each shloka on various parameters to weed out those verses that are obviously interpolated.



He has deduced that of the 2685 shlokas of Manu Smriti, at least 1471 shlokas are adulterated. He has classified the adulterations as :

– out of subject

– out of context

– contradictory

– repetition

– difference in usage and style

– blatant contradiction with Vedas

We recommend all keen students of Vedic texts to procure a copy of Manu Smriti by Dr Surendra Kumar (published by Aarsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi) which would make this point as transparent as air.

e. Dr Surendra Kumar is not the only person to point out adulterations in Manu Smriti. Even many a western indologists like Macdonnell, Keith, Buhler etc have expressed the same.

f. Even BR Ambedkar accepted that ancient scriptures have been adulterated. He has alleged adulterations in Ramayan, Mahabharat, Geeta, Purans and even in Vedas. He cited contradictory verses from Manu Smriti. But he tactfully desisted from calling these verses of Manu Smriti as adulterated.

This myopic act of Ambedkar did make him a hero of Dalit movement. It did stir up an anti-Manu movement and created political careers for many a politicians including Ambedkar himself. But this selective honesty only worsened the caste-based hatred and made Manu – a true hero – a popular villain.

Even so-called Arya Samaji Sanyasis like Agnivesh burnt copies of Manu Smriti and disgraced the great Rishi only to score political brownies. Though he very well knew that Swami Dayanand himself had asserted that Manu Smriti has been interpolated but the unadulterated verses of Manu Smriti form the foundation of his Vedic ideology.

And now people expect such enlightened people to be instrumental in eradicating corruption from the nation by being masterminds of Anna Hazare movement! We seem to never learn from history! But thats a different story.

Conclusion:

Manu Smriti has been subject to significant adulterations. However the adulterated verses are easy to identify and trash. The rest of the Manu Smriti is an excellent text that establishes the foundations of a meritocracy based rational society that values each individual and ensures collective success.

Vedas form the foundation of original Manu Smriti.

The existing movement against Manu Smriti is purely a political game led by those who never reviewed Manu Smriti in first place.

True Manuvaad refers to complete outright rejection of birth-based caste system and heavy punishment for those who justify discrimination on basis of birth. It also refers to refusal of word ‘Dalit’ or ‘crushed one’ for certain people who are completely equal to rest of the humanity in all aspects.

Let us all work to install this Manuvaad in our society by working towards a completely casteless and merit-based society. This is the only way to save humanity and the nation.

Let us follow the true Dharma – that is same for all human beings regardless of caste, birth, gender, geography, religion and other baseless parameters.


Manu Smriti 8.17: Dharma or noble deeds is only one true friend that accompanies one ever after death. All others desert one as soon as death has overtaken.

Have some knowledge :dirol:
No one takes Manusmriti seriously?
Not even BR Ambedkar who wrote the Indian constitution?🤪🤪
Check :
Untitled Document
Yeah no one takes manusmriti seriously today, period :dirol:
lets talk what is a smriti and its implications on values,
is it the absolute neccesity,
is it the religious text??
is it revered by sanatan dharm???
Under the Maratha rule any one other than a Brahmin uttering a Veda Mantrawas liable to have his tongue cut off and as a matter of fact the tongues of several Sonars (goldsmiths) were actually cut off by the order of the Peshwa for their daring to utter the Vedas contrary to law.
Yeah and the same Maratha king(chattrapati shahu).
Should read the book to fulfill your half knowledge of Pakistani perspective,
 
Last edited:
1. Manu Smriti hails from an era when even the concept of birth-based caste system did not exist. Thus Manu Smriti nowhere supports a social system based on birth. Maharshi Manu took inspiration from Vedas (refer Rigveda 10.10.11-12, Yajurveda 31.10-11, Atharvaveda 19.6.5-6) and proposed a social system based on qualities, actions and nature of the individual.
Manu Smriti and Caste System


2. This is called Varna System. Now the very word Varna derived from root word “Vrinja”
means “Choice“. A similar usage happens in common used word “Varan” meaning “choosing” or “Var” meaning a husband chosen by the girl. This also shows that in Vedic system the girl had complete rights to choose her husband.

3. The biggest proof of Manu Smriti proposing Varna System and NOT Caste System is that in the first Chapter of Manu Smriti, there is mention of origin of 4 Varnas and no mention of castes or gotras. Had caste or gotra been important, Manu would have mentioned which castes belong to Brahmins, which to Kshatriyas, which to Vaishyas and which to Shudras.

This also means that those who feel proud in calling themselves Brahmins or upper-caste by birth have no evidence to prove so.
Yeah and the same maratha king.

This article from BBC says it all
Who were created from the thighs, Chest, head and feet.


Extract from Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's essay on caste:

How foreigners viewed the caste system:

Alberuni who wrote an account of his travels in India some time about 1030 A.D. must have been struck by the peculiarity of the Hindu Social Organisation. For he too has not omitted to make a note of it. He observed:

"The Hindus call their castes varna, i.e. colours, and from a genealogical point of view they call them jataka, i.e. births. These castes are from the very beginning only four.

1. The highest caste is the Brahmana, of whom the books of the Hindus tell that they were created from the head of Brahman. And a Brahman is only another name for the force called nature, and the head is the highest part of the animal body, the Brahmana are the choice part of the whole genus. Therefore the Hindus consider them as the very best mankind.

II. The next caste are the Kshatriya, who were created, as they say, from the shoulders and hands of Brahman. Their degree is not much below that of the Brahmana.

III. After them follow the Vaisya, who were created from the thigh of Brahman.

IV. The Sudra, who were created from his feet, " Between the latter two classes there is no very great distance. Much, however, as these classes differ from each other, they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings.

"After the Sudra follow the people called Antyaja, who render various kinds of services, who are not reckoned amongst any caste, but only as members of a certain craft or profession. There are eight classes of them who freely intermarry with each other, except the fuller, shoemaker and weaver, for no others would condescend to have anything to do with them. These eight guilds are the fuller, shoemaker, juggler, the basket and shield maker, the sailor, fisherman, the hunter of wild animals and of birds, and the weaver. The four castes do not live together with them in one and the same place. These guilds live near the villages and towns of the four castes, but outside them.

" The people called Hadi, Doma (Domba), Candala and Badhatau (sic) are not reckoned amongst any caste or guild. They are occupied with dirty work, like the cleansing of the villages and other services. They are considered as one sole class, and distinguished only by their occupations. In fact, they are considered like illegitimate children; for according to general opinion they descend from a Sudra father and a Brahmani mother as the children of fornication; therefore they are degraded outcaste.

" The Hindus give to every single man of the four castes characteristic names, according to their occupations and modes of life, e.g. the Brahman is in general called by this name as long as he does his work staying at home. When he is busy with the service of one fire, he is called Ishtin; if he serves three fires, he is called Agnihotrin; if he besides offers an offering to the fire, he is called Dikshita. And as it is with the Brahmana, so is it also with the other castes. Of the classes beneath the castes, the Hadi are the best spoken of, because they keep themselves free from everything unclean. Next follow the Doma, who play on the lute and sing. The still lower classes practise as a trade killing and the inflicting of judicial punishments. The worst of all are the Badhatau, who not only devour the flesh of dead animals, but even of dogs and other beasts.

" Each of the four castes, when eating together, must form a group of themselves, one group not being allowed to comprise two men of different castes. If, further, in the group of the Brahmana there are two men who live at enmity with each other, and the seat of the one is by the side of the other, they make a barrier between the two seats by placing a board between them, or by spreading a piece of dress, or in some other way; and if there is only a line drawn between them, they are considered as separated. Since it is forbidden to eat the remains of a meal, every single man must have his own food for himself; for if any one of the party who are eating should take of the food from one and the same plate, that which remains in the plate becomes, after the first eater has taken part, to him who wants to take as the second, the remains of the meal, and such is forbidden."

Alberuni did not merely content himself with recording what struck him as peculiar in the Hindu Social organisation. He went on to say:

"Among the Hindus institutions of this kind abound. We Muslims, of course, stand entirely on the other side of the question, considering all men as equal, except in piety; and this is the greatest obstacle which prevents any approach or understanding between Hindus and Muslims."
To follow the discussion of the subject of caste it is necessary to familiarise the readers with some basic conceptions, which underlie the Hindu Social organisation. The basic conception of social organisation which prevails among the Hindus starts with the rise of our classes or varnas into which Hindu society is believed to have become divided. These four classes were named: (1) Brahmins, the priestly and the educated class, (2) The Kshatriyas, the Military Class, (3) The Vaishyas, the trading class and, (4) The Shudras, the servant class. For a time these were merely classes. After a time what were only Classes (Varnas) became Castes (Jatis) and the four castes became four thousand. In this way the modern Caste System was only the evolution of the ancient Varna System.

No doubt the caste system is an evolution of the Varna System. But one can get no idea of the caste system by a study of the Varna System. Caste must be studied apart from Varna.
 
Last edited:
These facts will show that Manu though born some time before B. C. or sometime after A. D. is not dead and while the Hindu Kings reigned, justice between Hindu and Hindu, touchable and untouchable was rendered according to the Law of Manu and that law was avowedly based on inequality.
Can you state, the law of Manu which you are referring to. :big_boss:
What about the caste of President of the Republic of India. ??
What is India's caste system? India's complex caste system is among the world's oldest forms of surviving social stratification.
Never ending love of Pakistanis with BBC(propaganda machine) is awful. :laughcry:
This article from BBC says it all
Who were created from the thighs, Chest, head and feet.


Extract from Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's essay on caste:
How foreigners viewed the caste system:
Is there any thing peculiar in the social organisation of the Hindus ? An unsophisticated Hindu who is unaware of investigations conducted by scholars will say that there is nothing peculiar, abnormal or unnatural in the organisation of the society to which he belongs. This is quite natural. People who live their lives in isolation are seldom conscious of the peculiarities of their ways and manners. People have gone on from generation to generation without stopping to give themselves a name. But how does the social organisation of the Hindu strike the outsiders, non-Hindus? Did it appear to them as normal and natural?

Megasthenese who came to India as the ambassador of the Greek King Seleukos Nickator to the Court of Chandragupta Maurya some time about the year 305 B.C. did feel that the social organisation of the Hindus was of a very strange sort. Otherwise he would not have taken such particular care to describe the peculiar features of the Hindu social organisation. He has recorded:

"The population of India is divided into seven parts. The philosophers are first in rank, but form the smallest class in point of number. Their services are employed privately by persons who wish to offer sacrifices or perform other sacred rites, and also publicly by the kings at what is called the Great Synod, wherein at the beginning of the new year all the philosophers are gathered together before the King at the gates, when any philosopher who may have committed any useful suggestion to writing, or observed any means for improving the crops and the cattle, or for promoting the public interests, declares it publicly. If any one is detected giving false information thrice, the law condemns him to be silent for the rest of his life, but he who gives sound advice is exempted from paying any taxes or contributions.

"The second caste consists of the husbandmen, who form the bulk of the population, and are in disposition most mild and gentle. They are exempted from military service, and cultivate their lands undisturbed by fear. They never go to town, either to take part in its tumults, or for any other purpose. It therefore not infrequently happens that at the same time, and in the same part of the country, men maybe seen drawn up in array of battle, and fighting at risk of their lives, while other men close at hand are ploughing and digging in perfect security, having these soldiers to protect them. The whole of the land is the property of the King, and the husbandmen till it on condition of receiving one-fourth of the produce.

" The third caste consists of herdsmen and hunters, who alone are allowed to hunt, and to keep cattle, and to sell draught animals or let them out on hire. In return for clearing the land of wild beasts and fowls which devour the seeds sown in the fields, they receive an allowance of grain from the king. They lead a wandering life and live under tents.

" The fourth class, after herdsmen and hunters, consists of those who work at trades, of those who vend wares, and of those who are employed in bodily labour. Some of these pay tribute, and render to the State certain prescribed services. But the armour-makers and shipbuilders receive wages and their victuals from the king, for whom alone they work. The general in command of the army supplies the soldiers with weapons, and the admiral of the fleet lets out ships on hire for the transport both of passengers and merchandise.

" The fifth class consists of fighting men, who when not engaged in active service, pass their time in idleness and drinking. They are maintained at the King's expense, and hence they are always ready, when occasion calls, to take the field, for they carry nothing of their own with them but their own bodies.

" The sixth class consists of the overseers, to whom is assigned the duty of watching all that goes on, and making reports secretly to the King. Some are entrusted with the inspection of the city, and others with that of the army. The former employs as their coadjutors the courtesans of the city, and the latter the courtesans of the camp. The ablest and most trustworthy men are appointed to fill these offices.

" The seventh class consists of the councillors and assessors of the king. To them belong the highest posts of government, the tribunals of justice, and the general administration of public affairs. No one is allowed to marry out of his own caste, or to exchange one profession or trade for another, or to follow more than one business. An exception is made in favour of the philosopher, who for his virtue is allowed this privilege."

Alberuni who wrote an account of his travels in India some time about 1030 A.D. must have been struck by the peculiarity of the Hindu Social Organisation. For he too has not omitted to make a note of it. He observed:

"The Hindus call their castes varna, i.e. colours, and from a genealogical point of view they call them jataka, i.e. births. These castes are from the very beginning only four.

1. The highest caste is the Brahmana, of whom the books of the Hindus tell that they were created from the head of Brahman. And a Brahman is only another name for the force called nature, and the head is the highest part of the animal body, the Brahmana are the choice part of the whole genus. Therefore the Hindus consider them as the very best mankind.

II. The next caste are the Kshatriya, who were created, as they say, from the shoulders and hands of Brahman. Their degree is not much below that of the Brahmana.

III. After them follow the Vaisya, who were created from the thigh of Brahman.

IV. The Sudra, who were created from his feet, " Between the latter two classes there is no very great distance. Much, however, as these classes differ from each other, they live together in the same towns and villages, mixed together in the same houses and lodgings.

"After the Sudra follow the people called Antyaja, who render various kinds of services, who are not reckoned amongst any caste, but only as members of a certain craft or profession. There are eight classes of them who freely intermarry with each other, except the fuller, shoemaker and weaver, for no others would condescend to have anything to do with them. These eight guilds are the fuller, shoemaker, juggler, the basket and shield maker, the sailor, fisherman, the hunter of wild animals and of birds, and the weaver. The four castes do not live together with them in one and the same place. These guilds live near the villages and towns of the four castes, but outside them.

" The people called Hadi, Doma (Domba), Candala and Badhatau (sic) are not reckoned amongst any caste or guild. They are occupied with dirty work, like the cleansing of the villages and other services. They are considered as one sole class, and distinguished only by their occupations. In fact, they are considered like illegitimate children; for according to general opinion they descend from a Sudra father and a Brahmani mother as the children of fornication; therefore they are degraded outcaste.

" The Hindus give to every single man of the four castes characteristic names, according to their occupations and modes of life, e.g. the Brahman is in general called by this name as long as he does his work staying at home. When he is busy with the service of one fire, he is called Ishtin; if he serves three fires, he is called Agnihotrin; if he besides offers an offering to the fire, he is called Dikshita. And as it is with the Brahmana, so is it also with the other castes. Of the classes beneath the castes, the Hadi are the best spoken of, because they keep themselves free from everything unclean. Next follow the Doma, who play on the lute and sing. The still lower classes practise as a trade killing and the inflicting of judicial punishments. The worst of all are the Badhatau, who not only devour the flesh of dead animals, but even of dogs and other beasts.

" Each of the four castes, when eating together, must form a group of themselves, one group not being allowed to comprise two men of different castes. If, further, in the group of the Brahmana there are two men who live at enmity with each other, and the seat of the one is by the side of the other, they make a barrier between the two seats by placing a board between them, or by spreading a piece of dress, or in some other way; and if there is only a line drawn between them, they are considered as separated. Since it is forbidden to eat the remains of a meal, every single man must have his own food for himself; for if any one of the party who are eating should take of the food from one and the same plate, that which remains in the plate becomes, after the first eater has taken part, to him who wants to take as the second, the remains of the meal, and such is forbidden."

Alberuni did not merely content himself with recording what struck him as peculiar in the Hindu Social organisation. He went on to say:

"Among the Hindus institutions of this kind abound. We Muslims, of course, stand entirely on the other side of the question, considering all men as equal, except in piety; and this is the greatest obstacle which prevents any approach or understanding between Hindus and Muslims."

Duarte Barbosa who was Portuguese official in the service of the Portuguese Government in India from 1500 to 1517 has left a record of his impressions of Hindu Society. This is what struck him:

" And before this kingdom of Guzerate fell into the hands of the Moors, a certain race of Heathen whom the Moors called Resbutos dwelt therein, who in those days were the knights and wardens of the land, and made war where so ever it was needful. These men kill and eat sheep and fish and all other kinds of food; in the mountains there are yet many of them, where they have great villages and obey not the king of Guzerate, but rather wage daily war against him: who, do what he may, is yet not able to prevail against them, nor will do so, for they are very fine horsemen, and good archers, and have besides divers other weapons to defend themselves withal against the Moors, on whom they make war without ceasing; yet have they no king nor lord over them.

"And in this kingdom there is another sort of Heathen whom they call Baneanes, who are great merchants and traders. They dwell among the Moors with whom they carry on all their trade. This people eat neither flesh nor fish, nor anything subject to death; they slay nothing, nor are they willing even to see the slaughter of any animal; and thus they maintain their idolatry and hold it so firmly that it is a terrible thing. For often it is so that the Moors take to them live insects or small birds, and make as though to kill them in their presence, and the Baneanes buy these and ransom them, paying much more than they are worth, so that they may save their lives and let them go. And if the King or a Governor of the land has any man condemned to death, for any crime, which he has committed, they gather themselves together and buy him from justice, if they are willing to sell him, that he may not die. And divers Moorish mendicants as well, when they wish to obtain alms from this people, take great stones wherewith they beat upon their shoulders and bellies as though they would slay themselves before them, to hinder which they give them great alms that they may depart in peace. Others carry knives with which they slash their arms and legs, and to these too they give large alms that they may not kill themselves. Others go to their doors seeking to kill rats and snakes for them, and to them also they give much money that they may not do so. Thus they are much esteemed by the Moors!

"When these Baneanes meet with a swarm of ants on the road they shrink back and seek for some way to pass without crushing them. And in their houses they sup by daylight, for neither by night nor by day will they light a lamp, by reason of certain little flies which perish in the flame thereof; and if there is any great need of a light by night they have a lantern of varnished paper or cloth, so that no living thing may find its way in, and die in the flame. And if these men breed many lice they kill them not, but when they trouble them too much they send for certain men, also Heathen, who live among them and whom they hold to be men of a holy life; they are like hermits living with great abstinence through devotion to their gods. These men louse them, and as many lice as they catch they place on their own heads and breed them on their own flesh, by which they say they do great service to their Idol. Thus one and all they maintain with great self-restraint their law of not killing. On the other hand they are great usurers, falsifiers of weights and measures and many other goods and of coins; and great liars. These heathen are tawny men, tall and well looking, gaily attired, delicate and moderate in their food. Their diet is of milk, butter, sugar and rice, and many conserves of divers sorts. They make much use of dishes of fruit and vegetables and potherbs in their food. Where so ever they dwell they have orchards and fruit gardens and many water tanks wherein they bathe twice a day, both men and women; and they say when they have finished bathing that they are clear of as many sins as they have committed up to that hour. These Baneanes grow very long hair, as women do with us, and wear it twisted up on the head and made into a knot, and over it a turban, that they may keep it always held together; and in their hair they put flowers and other sweet scented things.

"They use to anoint themselves with white sandalwood mixed with saffron and other scents. They are very amorous people. They are clad in long cotton and silken shirts and are shod with pointed shoes of richly wrought cordwain; some of them wear short coats of silk and brocade. They carry no arms except certain very small knives ornamented with gold and silver, and this for two reasons: First, because they are men who make but little use of weapons; and secondly, because the Moors defend them.

" Bramenes. And there is here another class of Heathen whom they call Bramenes, who are priests among them, and persons who manage and rule their houses of prayers and idol-worship, which are of great size and have great revenues; and many of them also are maintained by alms. In these houses are great numbers of wooden Idols, and others of stone and copper and in these houses or monasteries they celebrate great ceremonies in honour of these idols, entertaining them with great store of candles and oil lamps, and with bells after our fashion. These Bramenes and Heathen have in their creed many resemblance to the Holy Trinity, and hold in great honour the relation of the Triune Three, and always make their prayers to God, whom they confess and adore as the true God, Creator and maker of all things, who is three persons and one God and they say that there are many other gods who are rulers under him, in whom also they believe. These Bramenes and heathen wheresoever they find our churches enter them and make prayers and adoration to our Images, always asking for Santa Maria, like men who have some knowledge and understanding of these matters; and they honour the Church as is our manner, saying that between them and us there is little difference. These men never eat anything subject to death, nor do they slay anything. Bathing they hold to be a great ceremony and they say that by it they are saved.

" There is also in this same Kingdom of Calicut a caste of people called Bramenes who are priests among them (as are the clergy among us) of whom I have spoken in another place.

"These all speak the same tongue, nor can any be a Bramene except he be the son of a Bramene. When they are seven years of age they put over their shoulder a strip of two fingers in breadth of untanned skin with the hair on it of a certain wild beast, which they call Cryvamergam, which resembles a wild ***. Then for seven years he must not eat betel for which time he continues to wear this strap. When he is fourteen years old they make him a Bramene, and taking off their leather strap they invest him with the cord of three strands which he wears for the rest of his life as a token that he is a Bramene. And this they do with great ceremonial and rejoicings, as we do here for a cleric when he sings his first mass. Thereafter he may eat betel, but not flesh or fish. They have great honour among the Indians and as I have already said, they suffer death for no cause whatsoever, their own headman gives them a mild chastisement. They marry once only in our manner, and only the eldest son marries, he is treated like the head of an entailed estate. The other brothers remain single all their lives. These Bramenes keep their wives well guarded, and greatly honoured, so that no other men may sleep with them; if any of them die, they do not marry again, but if a woman wrongs her husband she is slain by poison. The brothers who remain bachelors sleep with the Nayre women, they hold it to be a great honour, and as they are Bramenes no woman refuses herself to them, yet they may not sleep with any woman older than themselves. They dwell in their own houses and cities, and serve as clergy in the houses of worship, whither they go to pray at certain hours of the day, performing their rituals and idolatries.

" Some of these Bramenes serve the Kings in every manner except in arms. No man may prepare any food for the King except a Bramene or his own kin; they also serve as couriers to other countries with letters, money or merchandise, passing wherever they wish to go in safety, and none does them any ill, even when the Kings are at war. These Bramenes are learned in their idolatry, and possess many books thereof. The Kings hold them in high esteem.

" I have already spoken many times of the Nayres, and yet I have not hitherto told you what manner of men they are. You are to know that in this land of Malbar there is another caste of people, called Nayres, and among them are noble men who have no other duty than to serve in war, and they always carry their arms whither so ever they go, some swords and shields, others bows and arrows, and yet others spears. They all live with the King, and the other great Lords; nevertheless all receive stipends from the King or from the great Lords with whom they dwell. None may become a Nayre, save only he who is of Nayre lineage. They are very free from stain in their nobility. They will not touch any one of low caste, nor eat, nor drink save in the house of a Nayre.

" These men are not married, their nephews (sisters' sons) are their heirs. The Nayre women of good birth are very independent, and dispose of themselves as they please with Bramenes and Nayres, but they do not sleep with men of caste lower than their own under pain of death. When they reach the age of twelve years their mothers hold a great ceremony. When a mother perceives that her daughter has attained that age, she asks her kinsfolk and friends to make ready to honour her daughter, then she asks of the kindred and especially of one particular kinsman or great friend to marry her daughter; this he willingly promises and then he has a small jewel made, which would contain a half ducat of gold, long like a ribbon, with a hole through the middle which comes out on the other side, string on thread of white silk. The mother then on a fixed day is present with her daughter gaily decked with many rich jewels, making great rejoicing with music and singing, and a great assembly of people. Then the Kinsman or friend comes bringing that jewel, and going through certain forms, throws it over the girl's neck. She wears it as a token all the rest of her life, and may then dispose of herself, as she will. The man departs without sleeping with her inasmuch as he is her kinsman; if he is not, he may sleep with her, but is not obliged to do so. Thenceforward the mother goes about searching and asking some young man to take her daughter's virginity; they must be Nayres and they regard it among themselves as a disgrace and a foul thing to take a woman's virginity. And when any one has once slept with her, she is fit for association with men. Then the mother again goes about enquiring among other young Nayres if they wish to support her daughter, and take her as a Mistress so that three or four Nayres agree with her to keep her, and sleep with her, each paying her so much a day; the more lovers she has the greater is her honour. Each one of them passes a day with her from midday on one day, till midday on the next day and so they continue living quietly without any disturbance nor quarrels among them. If any of them wishes to leave her, he leaves her, and takes another, and she also if she is weary of a man, she tells him to go, and he does so, or makes terms with her. Any children they may have stay with the mother who has to bring them up, for they hold them not to be the children of any man, even if they bear his likeness, and they do not consider them their children, nor are they heirs to their estates, for as I have already stated their heirs are their nephews, sons of their sisters, (which rule whosoever will consider inwardly in his mind will find that it was established with a greater and deeper meaning than the common folk think) for they say that the Kings of the Nayres instituted it in order that the Nayres should not be held back from their service by the burden and labour of rearing children.

" In this Kingdom of Malabar there is also another caste of people whom they call Biabares, Indian Merchants, natives of the land. They were there ere foreign nations had sailed to India. They deal in goods of every kind both in the seaports and inland, where so ever their trade is of most profit. They gather to themselves all the pepper and ginger from the Nayres and husbandmen, and offtimes they buy the new crops beforehand in exchange for cotton clothes and other goods which they keep at the seaports. Afterwards they sell them again and gain much money thereby. Their privileges are such that the King of the country in which they dwell cannot execute them by legal process.

"There is in this land yet another caste of folk known as Cuiavern. They do not differ from the Nayres, yet by reason of a fault which they committed, they remain separate from them. Their business is to make pottery and bricks for roofing the houses of the Kings and idols, which are roofed with bricks instead of tiles; only these, for as I have already said, other houses are thatched with branches. They have their own sort of idolatry, and their separate idols.

" There is another Heathen caste which they call Mainatos, whose occupation is to wash clothes for the Kings, Bramenes and Nayres. By this they live, and may not take up any other.

" There is another lower caste than these which they call Caletis, who are weavers who have no other way of earning save by weaving of cotton and silk cloths, but they are low caste folk and have but little money, so that they clothe the lower races. They are apart by themselves and have their own idolatry.

"Besides the castes mentioned above, there are eleven others lower than they within whom the others do not associate, nor do they touch them under pain of death; and there are great distinctions between one and another of them, preserving them from mixture with one another. The purest of all these low, simple folk they call Tuias. Their work is mainly that of tending the palm-groves, and gathering the fruit thereof, and carrying it away for wages on their backs, for there are no beasts of burden in the land.

"There is another caste still lower than these whom they call Manen (Mancu in the printed text) who neither associate with others nor touch them, nor do the others touch them. They are washermen for the common people, and makers of sleeping mats, from which occupations all but they are barred; their sons must perforce follow the same trade; they have their own separate idolatry.

"There is another caste in this land still lower whom they call Canaqus. Their trade is making buckles and umbrellas. They learn letters for purposes of astronomy, they are great astrologers, and foretell with great truth things that are to come; there are some lords who maintain them for this cause.

" There is also another lower caste, also Heathens, called Ageres. They are masons, carpenters, smiths, metal workers and some are goldsmiths, all of whom are of a common descent, and a separate caste, and have their idols apart from other folk. They marry, and their sons inherit their property, and learn their fathers' trade.

" There is another caste still lower in this country called Mogeres, they are almost the same as the Tuias, but they do not touch one another. They work as carriers of things belonging to the Royal State when it moves from one place to another, but there are very few of them in this land; they are a separate caste; they have no marriage law; the most of them gain their living on the sea, they are sailors, and some of them fishers; they have no idols. They are as well slaves of the Nayres.

"There is another caste yet lower whom they call Monger, fishers who have no other work than fishing, yet some sail in the Moors' ships and in those of other heathens, and they are very expert seamen. This race is very rude. They are shameless thieves; they marry and their sons succeed them, their women are of loose character, they sleep with any one-so ever, and it is held no evil. They have their own idolatry.

" In this land of Malabar there is another caste of Heathen even lower than these, whom they call Betunes. Their business is salt making and rice growing, they have no other livelihood.

" They dwell in houses standing by themselves in the fields away from the roads, whither the gentlefolk do not walk. They have their own idolatry. They are slaves of the Kings and Nayres and pass their lives in poverty. The Nayres make them walk far away from them and speak to them from afar off. They hold no intercourse with any other caste.

" There is another caste of Heathen, even lower and ruder, whom they call Paneens, who are great sorcerers, and live by no other means.

"There is another caste lower and ruder than they, named Revoleens, a very poor folk, who live by carrying firewood and grass to the towns, they may touch none, nor may any touch them under pain of death. They go naked, covering only their private parts with scant and filthy rags, the more part of them indeed with leaves of certain trees. Their women wear many brass rings in their ears; and on their necks, arms and legs necklaces and bracelets of heads.

"And there is yet another caste of Heathens lower than these whom they call Poleas, who among all the rest are held to be accursed and excommunicate; they dwell in the fields and open campaigns in secret lurking places, whither folk of good caste never go save by mischance, and live in huts very strait and mean. They are tillers of rice with buffaloes and oxen. They never speak to the Nayres save from off, shouting so that they may hear them, and when they go along the roads they utter loud cries, that they may be let past, and whosoever hears them leaves the road, and stands in the wood till they have passed by: and if any one, whether man or woman, touches them his kinsfolk slay them forthwith, and in vengeance therefore they slay Poleas until they are weary without suffering any punishment.

"Yet another caste there is even lower and baser called Pareens, who dwell in the most desert places away from all other castes. They have no intercourse with any person nor any one with them they are held to be worse than devils, and to be damned. Even to see them is to be unclean and out-caste. They eat yams and other roots of wild plants. They cover their middles with leaves, they also eat the flesh of wild beasts.

"With these end the distinctions between the castes of the Heathen, which are eighteen in all, each one separate and unable to touch others or marry with them; and besides these eighteen castes of the Heathen who are natives of Malabar, which I have now related to you, there are others of outlandish folk, merchants and traders in the land, where they possess houses and estates, living like the natives, yet with customs of their own."

These foreigners were not able to give a full and detailed picture of caste. This is understandable. For to every foreigner the private life of the Hindu is veiled and it is not possible for him to penetrate it. The social organism of India, the play of its motive forces, is moreover, regulated infinitely more by custom, varying according to locality and baffling in its complexity, than by any legal formula which can be picked out of a legal text book. But there is no doubt that caste did appear to the foreigners as the most singular and therefore the most distinguishing feature of Hindu Society. Otherwise they would not have noted its existence in the record they made of what they observed when they came to India.

Caste therefore is something special in the Hindu Social organization and marks off the Hindus from other peoples. Caste has been a growing institution. It has never been the same at all time. The shape and form of caste as it existed when Magasthenes wrote his account was very different from what the shape and form it has taken when Alberuni came and the appearance it gave to the Portuguese was different from what it was in the time of Alberuni. But to understand caste one must have more exact idea of its nature than these foreigners are able to give.

To follow the discussion of the subject of caste it is necessary to familiarise the readers with some basic conceptions, which underlie the Hindu Social organisation. The basic conception of social organisation which prevails among the Hindus starts with the rise of our classes or varnas into which Hindu society is believed to have become divided. These four classes were named: (1) Brahmins, the priestly and the educated class, (2) The Kshatriyas, the Military Class, (3) The Vaishyas, the trading class and, (4) The Shudras, the servant class. For a time these were merely classes. After a time what were only Classes (Varnas) became Castes (Jatis) and the four castes became four thousand. In this way the modern Caste System was only the evolution of the ancient Varna System.

No doubt the caste system is an evolution of the Varna System. But one can get no idea of the caste system by a study of the Varna System. Caste must be studied apart from Varna.

Maybe Baba Saheb’s ideas were first ignored and then misrepresented precisely because the intelligentsia knew that those ideas would not fit into the ‘left-liberal’ narrative. Being a prolific scholar and a patriot, Dr Ambedkar recorded his observations on a myriad of topics, events, problems and debates of his times. Here are seven aspects of those which the Old Media and the leftist academic cartel do not want Indians to know about.
1. Dr Ambedkar considered the mahavakyas of Upanishads the spiritual basis of democracy
In his famous speech to the Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, Dr Ambedkar made the suggestion that Hindus need not look anywhere outside their scriptures to build a society based on the principles of liberty, fraternity and equality. They could look into the Upanishads for those values, he said.

Later in his scathing attack on Hinduism in the book Riddles of Hinduism, he not only revisited the idea but elaborated on it. He took the three mahavakyas—'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Aham Brahmasmi', and 'Tatvamasi'—and named their combined purport. He wrote:
To support democracy because we are all children of God is a very weak foundation for democracy to rest on. That is why democracy is so shaky wherever it made to rest on such a foundation. But to recognize and realize that you and I are parts of the same cosmic principle leaves room for no other theory of associated life except democracy. It does not merely preach democracy. It makes democracy an obligation of one and all.
2. Dr Ambedkar considered the Hindu Civil Code the first step towards a Uniform Civil Code.
The same Dr Ambedkar who rejected outright the inhuman and outdated aspects of Smrithi traditions also demonstrated that the same tradition, with all its diversity, could be distilled to create a Hindu law that had prominent space for social democracy and gender justice.

He saw the Hindu Code Bill (HCB) as instrumental in moulding Hindu society into a unitary one based on the principles of liberty and equality. In a lecture delivered on 11 January 1950, he declared:
The present bill is progressive. This is an effort to try to have one civil law for all the citizens under the constitution of India. The law is based on the religious scriptures of the Hindus.
While for Nehru the HCB was perhaps a political device to obfuscate between the Hindu traditionalists and Hindu nationalists, thus making himself the champion of liberal democracy within the Congress, for Dr Ambedkar the HCB was a tool for creating a strong and healthy Hindu society which could become the basis for the modern Indian state.
3. Dr Ambedkar was against giving Indus water to Pakistan without Pakistan acknowledging Indian farmers’ first rights over the river.
British economist Henry Vincent Hodson occupied many key positions in the colonial government as the Director of the Empire Division of the Ministry of Information and Constitutional Advisor to the Viceroy. In his book The Great Divide: Britain-India-Pakistan (1969), he gives a detailed account of how Dr Ambedkar refused Pakistan the Indus water and how Mountbatten intervened on behalf of Pakistan:
At a meeting of ministerial representatives from India and Pakistan on 3rd May (1948), Dr Ambedkar, for India, insisted that no water could be supplied until Pakistan accepted India’s legal claim that all the water belonged to East Punjab, who had the right to do with it as they wished. The chief Pakistan representative, Mr Gulam Mohammed, came to see Lord Mountbatten after the meeting had broken down on this point. The Governor General immediately phoned Pandit Nehru and expressed his disgust that miserable peasants and refugees were being made to suffer when the matter was still under negotiation. Pandit Nehru agreed and undertook to get the conference going again and break the deadlock.
4. Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India.

As it is now well known, Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India. The Sunday Hindustan Standard dated 11 September 1949, reported that Baba Saheb, as law minister, wanted Sanskrit to be the official language of the Union. In the Executive Committee of the All India Scheduled Caste Federation, Dr Ambedkar reiterated the same.
Later, when the creation of linguistic states became a burning issue, Dr Ambedkar was in favour of the creation of such states. While he recognised that there was an inherent danger in the creation of linguistic states, he believed that it was a danger “a wise and firm statesman could avert”.
Towards that end, Dr Ambedkar made the following strong recommendation:
The only way I can think of meeting the danger is to provide in the Constitution that the regional language shall not be the official language of the State. The official language of the State shall be Hindi and until India becomes fit for this purpose English. ... Since Indians wish to unite and develop a common culture it is the bounden duty of all Indians to own up Hindi as their language. Any Indian who does not accept this proposal as part and parcel of a linguistic State has no right to be an Indian. He … cannot be an Indian in the real sense of the word except in a geographical sense.
This recommendation goes beyond recommending Hindi as the official language. It also recognises the need to develop India as a culturally united nation-state. It also rejects the territorial conceptualisation of nationhood and advocates strong cultural nationalism as the basis for nationhood ‘in the real sense’.
5. Dr Ambedkar wanted an Indian army free of the preponderances of elements hostile to India.
In his mercilessly objective analysis of the demographic nature of the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar showed how the Indian Army in the north-western region of India was having a very high proportion of Islamists. He exposed as false the British reasoning that it was because the North-Western province Muslims were martial races while most of the Hindus were not. He stated that it was actually the rebellion of “1857 which was the real cause of the preponderance in the Indian Army of the men of the North-West” and not the so-called martial and non-martial classes theory, which termed “a purely arbitrary and artificial distinction”.
Pointing out the gross inequalities and inherent insecurities against the Hindus in the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar wrote about the need for “getting rid of the Muslim preponderance in the Indian Army”.

The bulk of this amount of Rs. 52 crores which is spent on the Army … is contributed by the Hindu Provinces and is spent on an Army which for the most part consists of non-Hindus! How many Hindus are aware of this tragedy? How many know at whose cost this tragedy is being enacted? Today the Hindus are not responsible for it because they cannot prevent it. The question is whether they will allow this tragedy to continue.
While Dr Ambedkar’s statement about the complete exchange of populations between India and Pakistan as part of the Partition formula is well-known, his views of keeping Indian institutions like the army free of the preponderance of elements hostile to Indian national life is not well-known.
6. Dr Ambedkar viewed with suspicion the missionary support for the movement of 'Dalit' causes.
In his preface to Prof Lakshmi Narasu’s book, the Essentials of Buddhism, he pointed out that the missionary support for social reforms was not because of any real concern but only as a means for proselytisation. He wrote:
That was the era when Christian Missionaries were not only countenancing the social reform movement but viewed it with high favour as marking a half-way house between orthodox Hinduism and conversion to Christianity. It did not take long for them to change their views and look upon such progressive movements as constituting a real hindrance to proselytization.
It is interesting to note that the Collected Works of Dr. Ambedkar (Vol-17) also includes a letter written to Dr. Ambedkar by Babu Jagivan Ram, another tall leader of the Scheduled Communities. This letter was from the files of the British CID of Bihar province and is part of a Special Officer’s report, dated 9 March 1937.
Addressing Baba Saheb as ‘my dear Doctor Saheb', Babu Jagajivan Ram cautioned against one 'Mr Baldeo Prasad Jaiswal of Allahabad'. “No person of Bihar is with him. He has his office located in a Catholic Church here and everything is being manoeuvred by missionaries”, wrote Babu Jagajivan Ram and went on to point out that “he will not be able to have a gathering of more than one hundred Depressed Classes”. “He can, of course, invite thousands of Muhammamidans and Christians as he did at Lucknow. I take strong objection of this method. We should have genuine Depressed Classes conferences”, so the letter concludes.
The letter shows that both the leaders were averse in principle to the missionary meddling in the movements of Scheduled Communities. That the letter ended in the files of the British CID also shows an interest or involvement of the colonial government against them.

7. Dr Ambedkar wanted the Indian state to run an Indian Priest Service for Hinduism.
In his work, Annihilation of Caste, Dr Ambedkar wanted the state to create a body of Hindu priests in the line of civil services. Priesthood would cease to be hereditarybecause of this, he believed. According to him, every Hindu must be eligible for being a priest. The examination for Hindu priesthood, he believed, should be ‘prescribed by the State’. ‘No ceremony performed by a priest who does not hold a sanad shall be deemed to be valid in law, and it should be made penal [=punishable] for a person who has no sanad to officiate as a priest.’

Further he stated that ‘the number of priests should be limited by law according to the requirements of the State, as is done in the case of the I.C.S.’
Though at the outset it definitely looks like and most probably is unjustifiable to have state control over religious matters, this also effectively makes the state the patron of Hinduism. If Indian state is to establish a corruption-free, Hindu Priest Service body, which constantly updates and adapts itself to the changing situations, then nothing can be more desirable to political Hindus than such a body of Hindu priests.
Extract from Dr. B. R. Ambedkar's essay on caste:
The way your boasting Dr. B.R Ambedkar and quoting his views, shows your ignorance, :dirol: :haha:
Clearly it seems ,you haven't read the views of Ambedkar, on Islam and Pakistan.
where is your self esteem mate.:what:
 
Last edited:
This is so stupid I can't even get passed the 3 minute mark as I'm shaking my head too much.

I thought it was bad when an Indian co-worker of mine was picking out a wife and had this color chart thing with 20 shades of brown and was holding the girls' pictures up to it debating their particular shade number.

Him: Hey do you think she's this shade..
Me: Get way from me..I don't want any part in this. No way. Ask somebody else.
The Indian will duck, dive and slide but facts are facts. They will even engage in some historical revisionsm by claiming it was the British or before that the Muslims who forced this on the Hindus. All that is ball oxe. This is what sophisticated English speaking Indians will spin in front of Western audience.

The truth is for all their faults the British tamed, civilized South Asians and I would even include myself in that category. I am not saying they did this for charity or some altruistic reason but fact is colonialsm is a comoplex matter and it involves all sort of dynamics. Do you really think there would have been a india, leave alone a democractic India without British? In fact even this platform PDF alludes to a consequence of British rule. Note PDF runs on English language. See how far it would get if it only applied urdu rule./

The reality is within Hinduism they have divided people along a pyramid and nothing moves up this value rung. Your born and you die in this category. Your station in life was fized the day you were fertilized.

1605904391678.png


The Untouchables and Adivasis are so low on this measure that they fall off the scale and are destined to suffer at sub human level for eternity. Furthermore this is not some outlier or fringe issue. There are as I said probably as many Adivasis and Dalits [Untouchables] as population of USA. This gives you the scale of the problem.

Now the proverbial elephant in the room. The skin colour and phenotype. Is there a correlation between caste and phenotype/pigmentation? I would argue yes. Everybody again knows this but Indians will deny this and find exceptions to the rule. I have seen picture of white Africans in Africa [Albinos] but that does not detract from the fact that most Africans are Black. India has a population of nearly 1.4 billion. Over 1,000s years clearly lusting makes all sort of shades. How many Black Africans can trace some ancestry to a white owner?

So generally Brahmins will be lighter with some passing of as Iranic whereas the Dalits and Adivasis are often as dark as Africans and with a aboriginal phenotype. Then you have the very mixed categories in ascending order. I would suggest that and many genetic studies have shown this the upper orders have greater blood from invaders from Iran and Central Asia who often are called Aryan. A incorrect and rather crude but it does the job of redendering the past events. The natives of India were aboriginal Adivasis who have the least % of Aryan ancestry [Iranic/Central Asian].

Generally speaking in India as you move away from the Pakistan border in east or south direction the % of Adivasi increases and Iranic influence declines which of course makes sense. Souther India and East India have least amount of Iranic % whewreas India adjacent to Pakistan like Punjab or Gujrat have highest Iranic influence. Noted that people move so we are talking in broad strokes here.

You can see why Nazis were inspired by the Swastika etc.


Ps. One of most disgusting practice in human belief system in my opinion is the practice of Sati or widown burning. Imagine a young wife being required to burn herself at alter of religion because her husband died. just think. It took the power of British imperialism to ban this evil. Sir Charles Napier on recieving a bunch of Hindu priests who were protesting against the banning of what the Hindu priesthood took as their culture advised them they had a choice. They were free to practice their culture and customs but warned them it it was also British custom to hang any man who did this sort of evil. Meaning you try and I will have you hanging on gallows. All this is today we revised by claims that Sati was consequence of evil Muslim invaders and it was not the British rule that rid Sati but Hindu revivalists. That may be true but the force majeaur came from the British Raj.
 
The Indian will duck, dive and slide but facts are facts. They will even engage in some historical revisionsm by claiming it was the British or before that the Muslims who forced this on the Hindus. All that is ball oxe. This is what sophisticated English speaking Indians will spin in front of Western audience.

The truth is for all their faults the British tamed, civilized South Asians and I would even include myself in that category. I am not saying they did this for charity or some altruistic reason but fact is colonialsm is a comoplex matter and it involves all sort of dynamics. Do you really think there would have been a india, leave alone a democractic India without British? In fact even this platform PDF alludes to a consequence of British rule. Note PDF runs on English language. See how far it would get if it only applied urdu rule./

The reality is within Hinduism they have divided people along a pyramid and nothing moves up this value rung. Your born and you die in this category. Your station in life was fized the day you were fertilized.

View attachment 689772

The Untouchables and Adivasis are so low on this measure that they fall off the scale and are destined to suffer at sub human level for eternity. Furthermore this is not some outlier or fringe issue. There are as I said probably as many Adivasis and Dalits [Untouchables] as population of USA. This gives you the scale of the problem.

Now the proverbial elephant in the room. The skin colour and phenotype. Is there a correlation between caste and phenotype/pigmentation? I would argue yes. Everybody again knows this but Indians will deny this and find exceptions to the rule. I have seen picture of white Africans in Africa [Albinos] but that does not detract from the fact that most Africans are Black. India has a population of nearly 1.4 billion. Over 1,000s years clearly lusting makes all sort of shades. How many Black Africans can trace some ancestry to a white owner?

So generally Brahmins will be lighter with some passing of as Iranic whereas the Dalits and Adivasis are often as dark as Africans and with a aboriginal phenotype. Then you have the very mixed categories in ascending order. I would suggest that and many genetic studies have shown this the upper orders have greater blood from invaders from Iran and Central Asia who often are called Aryan. A incorrect and rather crude but it does the job of redendering the past events. The natives of India were aboriginal Adivasis who have the least % of Aryan ancestry [Iranic/Central Asian].

Generally speaking in India as you move away from the Pakistan border in east or south direction the % of Adivasi increases and Iranic influence declines which of course makes sense. Souther India and East India have least amount of Iranic % whewreas India adjacent to Pakistan like Punjab or Gujrat have highest Iranic influence. Noted that people move so we are talking in broad strokes here.

You can see why Nazis were inspired by the Swastika etc.


Ps. One of most disgusting practice in human belief system in my opinion is the practice of Sati or widown burning. Imagine a young wife being required to burn herself at alter of religion because her husband died. just think. It took the power of British imperialism to ban this evil. Sir Charles Napier on recieving a bunch of Hindu priests who were protesting against the banning of what the Hindu priesthood took as their culture advised them they had a choice. They were free to practice their culture and customs but warned them it it was also British custom to hang any man who did this sort of evil. Meaning you try and I will have you hanging on gallows. All this is today we revised by claims that Sati was consequence of evil Muslim invaders and it was not the British rule that rid Sati but Hindu revivalists. That may be true but the force majeaur came from the British Raj.
Ohhhhh kafir kafir shia kaafir- who said this?? A hindu??? A christian??? A buddhist ??? A sikh???


Ghaus Ansari (1960) named the following four broad categories of Muslim social divisions in India:[12]

The non-Ashrafs are categorized as Ajlaf. The untouchable Hindu converts are also categorized as Arzal ("degraded").[13][14] They are relegated to menial professions such as scavenging and carrying night soil.[15][16]

B.R. Ambedkar, citing the Superintendent of the Census for 1901 for the Province of Bengal, mentions that the Ajlaf primarily include:

  • Cultivating Sheikhs, and others who were originally Hindus but who do not belong to any functional group, and have not gained admittance to the Ashraf Community, e.g. Pirali and Thakrai.
  • Darzi, Brahmin, Jolaha, Fakir, and Rangrez.
  • Barhi, Bhalhiara, Chik, Churihar, Dai, Dhawa, Dhunia, Gaddi, Kalal, Kasai, Kula Kunjara, Laheri, Mahifarosh, Mallah, Naliya, Nikari.
  • Abdal, Bako, Bediya, Bhal, Chamba, Dafali, Dhobi, Hajjam, Mucho, Nagarchi, Nal, Panwaria, Madaria, Tunlia.
For the Arzal, the following castes are mentioned by the Superintendent of the Census: Bhanar, Halalkhor, Hijra, Kasbi, Lalbegi, Maugta, Mehtar.[17]

In Pakistan, various social groups (called quoms) display a social stratification comparable to the Indian caste system. The various quoms differ widely in power, privilege and wealth. Both ethnic affiliation (e.g. Pathan, Sindhi, Baloch, Punjabi, etc.) and membership of specific biraderis or zaat/quoms are additional integral components of social identity.[18] Within the bounds of endogamy defined by the above parameters, close consanguineous unions are preferred due to a congruence of key features of group- and individual-level background factors as well as affinities. McKim Marriott adds that a social stratification that is hierarchical, closed, endogamous and hereditary is widely prevalent, particularly in western parts of Pakistan.[19][20][21] The numerically and socially influential tribes in Pakistani Punjab includes the agricultural tribes of Arain, Awan, Jat Muslim and Gujjar as well as Rajput.
 
Can you state, the law of Manu you are referring to. :big_boss:
What about the caste of President of the Republic of India. ??

Never ending love of Pakistanis with BBC(propaganda machine) is awful. :laughcry:


Maybe Baba Saheb’s ideas were first ignored and then misrepresented precisely because the intelligentsia knew that those ideas would not fit into the ‘left-liberal’ narrative. Being a prolific scholar and a patriot, Dr Ambedkar recorded his observations on a myriad of topics, events, problems and debates of his times. Here are seven aspects of those which the Old Media and the leftist academic cartel do not want Indians to know about.
1. Dr Ambedkar considered the mahavakyas of Upanishads the spiritual basis of democracy
In his famous speech to the Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, Dr Ambedkar made the suggestion that Hindus need not look anywhere outside their scriptures to build a society based on the principles of liberty, fraternity and equality. They could look into the Upanishads for those values, he said.

Later in his scathing attack on Hinduism in the book Riddles of Hinduism, he not only revisited the idea but elaborated on it. He took the three mahavakyas—'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Aham Brahmasmi', and 'Tatvamasi'—and named their combined purport. He wrote:

2. Dr Ambedkar considered the Hindu Civil Code the first step towards a Uniform Civil Code.
The same Dr Ambedkar who rejected outright the inhuman and outdated aspects of Smrithi traditions also demonstrated that the same tradition, with all its diversity, could be distilled to create a Hindu law that had prominent space for social democracy and gender justice.

He saw the Hindu Code Bill (HCB) as instrumental in moulding Hindu society into a unitary one based on the principles of liberty and equality. In a lecture delivered on 11 January 1950, he declared:

While for Nehru the HCB was perhaps a political device to obfuscate between the Hindu traditionalists and Hindu nationalists, thus making himself the champion of liberal democracy within the Congress, for Dr Ambedkar the HCB was a tool for creating a strong and healthy Hindu society which could become the basis for the modern Indian state.
3. Dr Ambedkar was against giving Indus water to Pakistan without Pakistan acknowledging Indian farmers’ first rights over the river.
British economist Henry Vincent Hodson occupied many key positions in the colonial government as the Director of the Empire Division of the Ministry of Information and Constitutional Advisor to the Viceroy. In his book The Great Divide: Britain-India-Pakistan (1969), he gives a detailed account of how Dr Ambedkar refused Pakistan the Indus water and how Mountbatten intervened on behalf of Pakistan:

4. Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India.

As it is now well known, Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India. The Sunday Hindustan Standard dated 11 September 1949, reported that Baba Saheb, as law minister, wanted Sanskrit to be the official language of the Union. In the Executive Committee of the All India Scheduled Caste Federation, Dr Ambedkar reiterated the same.
Later, when the creation of linguistic states became a burning issue, Dr Ambedkar was in favour of the creation of such states. While he recognised that there was an inherent danger in the creation of linguistic states, he believed that it was a danger “a wise and firm statesman could avert”.
Towards that end, Dr Ambedkar made the following strong recommendation:

This recommendation goes beyond recommending Hindi as the official language. It also recognises the need to develop India as a culturally united nation-state. It also rejects the territorial conceptualisation of nationhood and advocates strong cultural nationalism as the basis for nationhood ‘in the real sense’.
5. Dr Ambedkar wanted an Indian army free of the preponderances of elements hostile to India.
In his mercilessly objective analysis of the demographic nature of the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar showed how the Indian Army in the north-western region of India was having a very high proportion of Islamists. He exposed as false the British reasoning that it was because the North-Western province Muslims were martial races while most of the Hindus were not. He stated that it was actually the rebellion of “1857 which was the real cause of the preponderance in the Indian Army of the men of the North-West” and not the so-called martial and non-martial classes theory, which termed “a purely arbitrary and artificial distinction”.
Pointing out the gross inequalities and inherent insecurities against the Hindus in the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar wrote about the need for “getting rid of the Muslim preponderance in the Indian Army”.


While Dr Ambedkar’s statement about the complete exchange of populations between India and Pakistan as part of the Partition formula is well-known, his views of keeping Indian institutions like the army free of the preponderance of elements hostile to Indian national life is not well-known.
6. Dr Ambedkar viewed with suspicion the missionary support for the movement of 'Dalit' causes.
In his preface to Prof Lakshmi Narasu’s book, the Essentials of Buddhism, he pointed out that the missionary support for social reforms was not because of any real concern but only as a means for proselytisation. He wrote:

It is interesting to note that the Collected Works of Dr. Ambedkar (Vol-17) also includes a letter written to Dr. Ambedkar by Babu Jagivan Ram, another tall leader of the Scheduled Communities. This letter was from the files of the British CID of Bihar province and is part of a Special Officer’s report, dated 9 March 1937.
Addressing Baba Saheb as ‘my dear Doctor Saheb', Babu Jagajivan Ram cautioned against one 'Mr Baldeo Prasad Jaiswal of Allahabad'. “No person of Bihar is with him. He has his office located in a Catholic Church here and everything is being manoeuvred by missionaries”, wrote Babu Jagajivan Ram and went on to point out that “he will not be able to have a gathering of more than one hundred Depressed Classes”. “He can, of course, invite thousands of Muhammamidans and Christians as he did at Lucknow. I take strong objection of this method. We should have genuine Depressed Classes conferences”, so the letter concludes.
The letter shows that both the leaders were averse in principle to the missionary meddling in the movements of Scheduled Communities. That the letter ended in the files of the British CID also shows an interest or involvement of the colonial government against them.

7. Dr Ambedkar wanted the Indian state to run an Indian Priest Service for Hinduism.
In his work, Annihilation of Caste, Dr Ambedkar wanted the state to create a body of Hindu priests in the line of civil services. Priesthood would cease to be hereditarybecause of this, he believed. According to him, every Hindu must be eligible for being a priest. The examination for Hindu priesthood, he believed, should be ‘prescribed by the State’. ‘No ceremony performed by a priest who does not hold a sanad shall be deemed to be valid in law, and it should be made penal [=punishable] for a person who has no sanad to officiate as a priest.’

Further he stated that ‘the number of priests should be limited by law according to the requirements of the State, as is done in the case of the I.C.S.’
Though at the outset it definitely looks like and most probably is unjustifiable to have state control over religious matters, this also effectively makes the state the patron of Hinduism. If Indian state is to establish a corruption-free, Hindu Priest Service body, which constantly updates and adapts itself to the changing situations, then nothing can be more desirable to political Hindus than such a body of Hindu priests.
Your views don't go down well with the people
Can you state, the law of Manu you are referring to. :big_boss:
What about the caste of President of the Republic of India. ??

Never ending love of Pakistanis with BBC(propaganda machine) is awful. :laughcry:


Maybe Baba Saheb’s ideas were first ignored and then misrepresented precisely because the intelligentsia knew that those ideas would not fit into the ‘left-liberal’ narrative. Being a prolific scholar and a patriot, Dr Ambedkar recorded his observations on a myriad of topics, events, problems and debates of his times. Here are seven aspects of those which the Old Media and the leftist academic cartel do not want Indians to know about.
1. Dr Ambedkar considered the mahavakyas of Upanishads the spiritual basis of democracy
In his famous speech to the Jat-Pat-Todak Mandal, Dr Ambedkar made the suggestion that Hindus need not look anywhere outside their scriptures to build a society based on the principles of liberty, fraternity and equality. They could look into the Upanishads for those values, he said.

Later in his scathing attack on Hinduism in the book Riddles of Hinduism, he not only revisited the idea but elaborated on it. He took the three mahavakyas—'Sarvam Khalvidam Brahma', 'Aham Brahmasmi', and 'Tatvamasi'—and named their combined purport. He wrote:

2. Dr Ambedkar considered the Hindu Civil Code the first step towards a Uniform Civil Code.
The same Dr Ambedkar who rejected outright the inhuman and outdated aspects of Smrithi traditions also demonstrated that the same tradition, with all its diversity, could be distilled to create a Hindu law that had prominent space for social democracy and gender justice.

He saw the Hindu Code Bill (HCB) as instrumental in moulding Hindu society into a unitary one based on the principles of liberty and equality. In a lecture delivered on 11 January 1950, he declared:

While for Nehru the HCB was perhaps a political device to obfuscate between the Hindu traditionalists and Hindu nationalists, thus making himself the champion of liberal democracy within the Congress, for Dr Ambedkar the HCB was a tool for creating a strong and healthy Hindu society which could become the basis for the modern Indian state.
3. Dr Ambedkar was against giving Indus water to Pakistan without Pakistan acknowledging Indian farmers’ first rights over the river.
British economist Henry Vincent Hodson occupied many key positions in the colonial government as the Director of the Empire Division of the Ministry of Information and Constitutional Advisor to the Viceroy. In his book The Great Divide: Britain-India-Pakistan (1969), he gives a detailed account of how Dr Ambedkar refused Pakistan the Indus water and how Mountbatten intervened on behalf of Pakistan:

4. Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India.

As it is now well known, Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India. The Sunday Hindustan Standard dated 11 September 1949, reported that Baba Saheb, as law minister, wanted Sanskrit to be the official language of the Union. In the Executive Committee of the All India Scheduled Caste Federation, Dr Ambedkar reiterated the same.
Later, when the creation of linguistic states became a burning issue, Dr Ambedkar was in favour of the creation of such states. While he recognised that there was an inherent danger in the creation of linguistic states, he believed that it was a danger “a wise and firm statesman could avert”.
Towards that end, Dr Ambedkar made the following strong recommendation:

This recommendation goes beyond recommending Hindi as the official language. It also recognises the need to develop India as a culturally united nation-state. It also rejects the territorial conceptualisation of nationhood and advocates strong cultural nationalism as the basis for nationhood ‘in the real sense’.
5. Dr Ambedkar wanted an Indian army free of the preponderances of elements hostile to India.
In his mercilessly objective analysis of the demographic nature of the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar showed how the Indian Army in the north-western region of India was having a very high proportion of Islamists. He exposed as false the British reasoning that it was because the North-Western province Muslims were martial races while most of the Hindus were not. He stated that it was actually the rebellion of “1857 which was the real cause of the preponderance in the Indian Army of the men of the North-West” and not the so-called martial and non-martial classes theory, which termed “a purely arbitrary and artificial distinction”.
Pointing out the gross inequalities and inherent insecurities against the Hindus in the pre-Partition Indian Army, Dr Ambedkar wrote about the need for “getting rid of the Muslim preponderance in the Indian Army”.


While Dr Ambedkar’s statement about the complete exchange of populations between India and Pakistan as part of the Partition formula is well-known, his views of keeping Indian institutions like the army free of the preponderance of elements hostile to Indian national life is not well-known.
6. Dr Ambedkar viewed with suspicion the missionary support for the movement of 'Dalit' causes.
In his preface to Prof Lakshmi Narasu’s book, the Essentials of Buddhism, he pointed out that the missionary support for social reforms was not because of any real concern but only as a means for proselytisation. He wrote:

It is interesting to note that the Collected Works of Dr. Ambedkar (Vol-17) also includes a letter written to Dr. Ambedkar by Babu Jagivan Ram, another tall leader of the Scheduled Communities. This letter was from the files of the British CID of Bihar province and is part of a Special Officer’s report, dated 9 March 1937.
Addressing Baba Saheb as ‘my dear Doctor Saheb', Babu Jagajivan Ram cautioned against one 'Mr Baldeo Prasad Jaiswal of Allahabad'. “No person of Bihar is with him. He has his office located in a Catholic Church here and everything is being manoeuvred by missionaries”, wrote Babu Jagajivan Ram and went on to point out that “he will not be able to have a gathering of more than one hundred Depressed Classes”. “He can, of course, invite thousands of Muhammamidans and Christians as he did at Lucknow. I take strong objection of this method. We should have genuine Depressed Classes conferences”, so the letter concludes.
The letter shows that both the leaders were averse in principle to the missionary meddling in the movements of Scheduled Communities. That the letter ended in the files of the British CID also shows an interest or involvement of the colonial government against them.

7. Dr Ambedkar wanted the Indian state to run an Indian Priest Service for Hinduism.
In his work, Annihilation of Caste, Dr Ambedkar wanted the state to create a body of Hindu priests in the line of civil services. Priesthood would cease to be hereditarybecause of this, he believed. According to him, every Hindu must be eligible for being a priest. The examination for Hindu priesthood, he believed, should be ‘prescribed by the State’. ‘No ceremony performed by a priest who does not hold a sanad shall be deemed to be valid in law, and it should be made penal [=punishable] for a person who has no sanad to officiate as a priest.’

Further he stated that ‘the number of priests should be limited by law according to the requirements of the State, as is done in the case of the I.C.S.’
Though at the outset it definitely looks like and most probably is unjustifiable to have state control over religious matters, this also effectively makes the state the patron of Hinduism. If Indian state is to establish a corruption-free, Hindu Priest Service body, which constantly updates and adapts itself to the changing situations, then nothing can be more desirable to political Hindus than such a body of Hindu priests.

The way your boasting Dr. B.R Ambedkar and quoting his views, shows your ignorance, :dirol: :haha:
clearly it seems you haven't read the views of Ambedkar's on Islam and Pakistan.
where is your self esteem mate.:what:
Stick to the topic please:
Brahma created the varnas from his head, chest, thighs and feet.
We are talking about Ambedkar on caste, He did curse Islam and Pakistan and it is a mystery why he didn't put a clause in the constitution banning Islam, All he did was ban cow slaughter.

Varna in action:

 
Ghaus Ansari (1960) named the following four broad categories of Muslim social divisions in India:[12]
Yes, I am well aware of that. Most Indian Muslims are just converts from lower order Hindus castes and such is force of caste in India it did little to free them. Muslim in India today is just a euphemism for Dalit which is expressed in religious terms and now often conflated in the language of Pak/India rivalry. I never treat this PDF's hobby of shouting about Indian evil design on Muslims. In reality the Adivasis, Dalits suffer the most with Muslims thrown in that bin as well because most are from that tier of society anyway.
 
Stick to the topic please:
Brahma created the varnas from his head, chest, thighs and feet.
We are talking about Ambedkar on caste, He did curse Islam and Pakistan and it is a mystery why he didn't put a clause in the constitution banning Islam, All he did was ban cow slaughter.
why dont you stick to the question I asked you precedently first.
You still haven't answered about the President of Republic of India's caste??
Not just banning cow slaughter-
1. Dr Ambedkar considered the mahavakyas of Upanishads the spiritual basis of democracy
2.
Dr Ambedkar considered the Hindu Civil Code the first step towards a Uniform Civil Code.
3. Dr Ambedkar was against giving Indus water to Pakistan without Pakistan acknowledging Indian farmers’ first rights over the river.
4. Dr Ambedkar wanted Sanskrit to be the national language of India.
5. Dr Ambedkar wanted an Indian army free of the preponderances of elements hostile to India.
6. Dr Ambedkar viewed with suspicion the missionary support for the movement of 'Dalit' causes.
7. Dr Ambedkar wanted the Indian state to run an Indian Priest Service for Hinduism.

Yeah you heard it right A priest .
why don't you construe the both sides of the story mate,
shed your Pakistani perspective to shed some light on the truth.
Yes, I am well aware of that. Most Indian Muslims are just converts from lower order Hindus castes and such is force of caste in India it did little to free them. Muslim in India today is just a euphemism for Dalit which is expressed in religious terms and now often conflated in the language of Pak/India rivalry. I never treat this PDF's hobby of shouting about Indian evil design on Muslims. In reality the Adivasis, Dalits suffer the most with Muslims thrown in that bin as well because most are from that tier of society anyway.
You like blabbering about Indian Muslim caste system don't you, and Hindu (so called) "caste system"
Lets analyze riyasat e medina first ,


The July 2010 Lahore bombings killed 50 people and wounded 200 others in two suicide bombings on the Sufi shrine, Data Durbar Complex in Lahore.

The 2016 Khuzdar bombing on a Sufi shrine in Balochistan killed more than 47 people.


Pakistan made an amendment to its constitution in 1974, declaring Ahmadis as non-Muslims. In the following decade, military dictator Muhammad Zia-ul-Haq prohibited Ahmadis from calling themselves as Muslims.

The May 2010 Lahore attacks left 94 dead and more than 120 injured in nearly simultaneous attacks against two mosques of the minority Ahmadiyya Community Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan, as well as their Punjab wing, claimed responsibility for the attacks and were also blamed by the Pakistani police.

The Ahmadi community released a persecution report in 2018 in which the discrimination faced by Ahmadis in Pakistan has been detailed including "indiscriminate arrests" of people from the community. Ahmadis are forbidden to call themselves Muslims or use Islamic symbols in their religious practices. They are also mandated to declare themselves as Non-Muslims in order to vote in general elections. Another report listed 3963 news items and 532 editorial pieces in the country's Urdu-language media for spreading "hate propaganda" against Ahmadis.

In September 2018, several Islamist groups in Pakistan publicly opposed the selection of Atif Mian, who is from the Ahmadi community, as a member of the government's Economic Advisory Council. He was removed less than a week after selection owing to pressure from Islamist groups. Voice of America reported that after the ouster of Mian the "Ahmadi community fears a renewed sense of religious intolerance and discrimination" in Pakistan


Shia Ithna 'ashariyah are estimated to be 5–7% of the country's population. Pakistan, like India, is said to have at least 5-7% Shias.

Shias allege discrimination by the Pakistani government since 1948, claiming that Sunnis are given preference in business, official positions and administration of justice. Attacks on Shias increased under the presidency of Zia-ul-Haq, with the first major sectarian riots in Pakistan breaking out in 1983 in Karachi and later spreading to Lahore and Balochistan. Sectarian violence became a recurring feature of the Muharram month every year, with sectarian violence between Sunnis and Shias taking place in 1986 in Parachinar.[ In one notorious incident, the 1988 Gilgit Massacre, Osama bin Laden-led Sunni tribals assaulted, massacred and raped Shia civilians in Gilgit after being inducted by the Pakistan Army to quell a Shia uprising in Gilgit.

Shias allege discrimination and persecution by the Pakistani government since 1948, claiming that Sunnis are given preference in business, official positions and administration of justice. Since 2008 thousands of Shia have been killed by Sunni extremists according to Human Rights Watch (HRW




Yes, I am well aware of that. Most Indian Muslims are just converts from lower order Hindus castes and such is force of caste in India it did little to free them. Muslim in India today is just a euphemism for Dalit which is expressed in religious terms and now often conflated in the language of Pak/India rivalry. I never treat this PDF's hobby of shouting about Indian evil design on Muslims. In reality the Adivasis, Dalits suffer the most with Muslims thrown in that bin as well because most are from that tier of society anyway.
Pakistani caste system is no more hidden notion mate, :big_boss:
In Pakistan, various social groups (called quoms) display a social stratification comparable to the Indian caste system. The various quoms differ widely in power, privilege and wealth. Both ethnic affiliation (e.g. Pathan, Sindhi, Baloch, Punjabi, etc.) and membership of specific biraderis or zaat/quoms are additional integral components of social identity. Within the bounds of endogamy defined by the above parameters, close consanguineous unions are preferred due to a congruence of key features of group- and individual-level background factors as well as affinities. McKim Marriott adds that a social stratification that is hierarchical, closed, endogamous and hereditary is widely prevalent, particularly in western parts of Pakistan. The numerically and socially influential tribes in Pakistani Punjab includes the agricultural tribes of Arain, Awan, Jat Muslim and Gujjar as well as Rajput.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom