"India will take decades to catch up with China's military capabilities." Prof. Harsh V. Pant

[TheSolution]

1) Dalvi 1969 Himalayan Blunder
2) Garver 2003 China's Decision for War with India in 1962
3) Hershberg 2011 Quietly Encouraging Quasi-Alignment
4) Kaul 1967 The Untold Story
5) McGarr 2011 India's Rasputin
6) Neville Maxwell 1970 India's China War
7) Neville Maxwell 2011 How the Chinese Saw the Conflict
8) Ramachandra Guha 2011 Jawaharlal Nehru and China
9) Shiv Kunal Verma 2016 1962 - The War That Wasn't

Any good book recommendations on the Indo-Pak conflicts?

Preferably as neutral as possible and not regurgitated Indian propaganda

 

[xyxmt]

That is if China is sitting idle for decades

 

[peagle]

Bro no matter what policymaker does I think it's useful for the public to know more about the enemy state especially the geographically and socially diversified ones. Some content on PDF does get translated and used in China. I bet most Chinese folks here have good knowledge about enemy states like US, Canada, Australia and such, but obviously not about India.

I once met a Hong Kong based old Chinese gentleman, when I told him I was Pakistani, he made an expressed effort to find out if I was aware of our special bond. He was visibly pleased that I knew few things. I think you are right, modern Chinese generation is different, but that's mainly because the people have been busy building their country. Now the threats are at you doorstep, they seem to be taking interest and will find out, who's a friend, and who's an enemy. And that Pakistan is beyond a friend.

America has been threatening Pakistan since the 1960s to reduce its relations with China. Pakistan was the first non communist country to start regular flights in and out of China. It was a transit route going to Japan with a stopover in China, America forced japan to stop that route so that this stopover will stop. I do not know what result that action created, so cannot provide a conclusion.

 

[peagle]

Good to know, I guess a lot of Chinese like me have limited knowledge about complexity of India. Are these people (regions), say Manipur, Kashmir, Naga and Meitei (pls correct me if I've used wrong vocab) hostile towards China like the typical group (or mainstream like you've described)?

India was never a single entity, never in its history. All the ethnic groups are vastly different to each other, with different culture, languages, foods, and even religious festivals. Europe has far deeper historical integration then India has ever had, they do not make silly claims of a historic nation.

China is over 90% Han Chinese due to historical nation building process, No ethnic group in India comprises more then 10% of the population. India was always a name to describe a region, it had no association with a country or a nation.

It was a British regional colony of India and it came into existence in 1947. It inherited the British-India legacy because the modern world is based on legal principles, it was just a legal process, it had no historical aspect.

 

[SIPRA]

Any good book recommendations on the Indo-Pak conflicts?

Preferably as neutral as possible and not regurgitated Indian propaganda

I doubt, there is any single book on all Indo-Pak conflicts. On 1965 War, a good book, though I have not read it, is by LG Mehmood Ahmad (Corp Commander, Rawalpindi, during 1999 Coup); but it is not available on internet, as far as I know. Another good book, which covers both 1965 and 1971 Wars is by MG Tajjammal Hussain, entitled "The Story of My Struggle". From Indian persepective, a book by LG Harbakhsh Singh (GOC-in-C, Western Command, 1965) is a good read, about 1965 War.

 

[mazeto]

Good to know, I guess a lot of Chinese like me have limited knowledge about complexity of India. Are these people (regions), say Manipur, Kashmir, Naga and Meitei (pls correct me if I've used wrong vocab) hostile towards China like the typical group (or mainstream like you've described)?

Manipur/Meitei describe the same area. They were a warlike people who previously even sacked Yangon( Burma). The Nagas are spread across India and Burma. A little secret: mongoloid people in India, even those without any animosity towards India, "look-up" to the achievements of Asian nations like China or Japan. Maybe because we are a minority in a sea of a billion Indians of a different race and civilization.On top most claim descent from China ( this even when China was a peasant country).So even at a instinctive level they will have a soft corner for China.
Politically they will naturally gravitate to the Chinese orbit in the event of gaining independence..even if only to defend themselves from India.
Kashmiri are Northern Indians of caucasoid descent. I have no idea of their natural inclinations re Chinese.
But i will tell this, a lot of Indians genuinely respect China for its achievements, and are non-judgemental re your system, culture or religion. This huge constituency is buried in the ugly rhetoric that a minority from both sides are stirring up. Chinese also should not become too arrogant in its success, lest it become like the Japanese who peaked too soon.

 

[mazeto]

India was never a single entity, never in its history. All the ethnic groups are vastly different to each other, with different culture, languages, foods, and even religious festivals. Europe has far deeper historical integration then India has ever had, they do not make silly claims of a historic nation.

China is over 90% Han Chinese due to historical nation building process, No ethnic group in India comprises more then 10% of the population. India was always a name to describe a region, it had no association with a country or a nation.

It was a British regional colony of India and it came into existence in 1947. It inherited the British-India legacy because the modern world is based on legal principles, it was just a legal process, it had no historical aspect.

Kya bolna chahte ho ji? Apka desh to 1947 se pehle tha hi nehi... Does it mean it's invalid as a country as well

 

[peagle]

Kya bolna chahte ho ji? Apka desh to 1947 se pehle tha hi nehi... Does it mean it's invalid as a country as well

This forum uses English language as a means of communication, my post was in English, so stick with English, it's not hard to understand the basic concept.

What meaning are you searching for?
Why do you need to look for ulterior meanings from facts?
Are you so stuck in conspiracy theories?

If you dispute anything I've said, then please say so, tell me if I am wrong.
If you cannot then please don't waste my time, and grow up.

 

[mazeto]

Ok then:
Pakistan was never a single entity, never in its history. All the ethnic groups are vastly different to each other, with different culture, languages, foods, and even religious festivals. Europe has far deeper historical integration then Pakistan has ever had, they do not make silly claims of a historic nation.

India is over 80% Hindu due to historical nation building process, No ethnic group in India comprises more then 10% of the population. India was always a name to describe a region, it had no association with a country or a nation.

Pakistan was a British regional colony of India and it came into existence in 1947. It inherited the British-India legacy because the modern world is based on legal principles, it was just a legal process, it had no historical aspect.

 

[Shotgunner51]

I once met a Hong Kong based old Chinese gentleman, when I told him I was Pakistani, he made an expressed effort to find out if I was aware of our special bond. He was visibly pleased that I knew few things. I think you are right, modern Chinese generation is different, but that's mainly because the people have been busy building their country. Now the threats are at you doorstep, they seem to be taking interest and will find out, who's a friend, and who's an enemy. And that Pakistan is beyond a friend.

America has been threatening Pakistan since the 1960s to reduce its relations with China. Pakistan was the first non communist country to start regular flights in and out of China. It was a transit route going to Japan with a stopover in China, America forced japan to stop that route so that this stopover will stop. I do not know what result that action created, so cannot provide a conclusion.

Yes I've similar personal experience after stationing there for a couple of years, the cultural diversity in HK is beautiful, amazing place! You can experience the same friendliness in other Mainland cities, do visit.

Manipur/Meitei describe the same area. They were a warlike people who previously even sacked Yangon( Burma). The Nagas are spread across India and Burma. A little secret: mongoloid people in India, even those without any animosity towards India, "look-up" to the achievements of Asian nations like China or Japan. Maybe because we are a minority in a sea of a billion Indians of a different race and civilization.On top most claim descent from China ( this even when China was a peasant country).So even at a instinctive level they will have a soft corner for China.
Politically they will naturally gravitate to the Chinese orbit in the event of gaining independence..even if only to defend themselves from India.
Kashmiri are Northern Indians of caucasoid descent. I have no idea of their natural inclinations re Chinese.
But i will tell this, a lot of Indians genuinely respect China for its achievements, and are non-judgemental re your system, culture or religion. This huge constituency is buried in the ugly rhetoric that a minority from both sides are stirring up. Chinese also should not become too arrogant in its success, lest it become like the Japanese who peaked too soon.

Thanks!

 

[peagle]

Yes I've similar personal experience after stationing there for a couple of years, the cultural diversity in HK is beautiful, amazing place! You can experience the same friendliness in other Mainland cities, do visit.

I'm afraid I have not visited Hong Kong or China, although they are on my to-do list. The nearest I have been is Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and Malaysia in that region. Let's see.

I met that gentleman in the UK, at my Northern Vietnamese friends daughters birthday party, many years ago. I also used to have a work colleague from Southern Vietnam and saw the difference between the north and south, But, that's an another story for another day.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

When it comes military capabilities, having economically sustainable military capabilities is a must

This is because majority of the weapons procured by nation in their lifetime will never be used and provide deterrence value in peacetime.

Here is a lesson from history regarding that

Back in 1970, when India was working towards its nuclear weapons capability, requirement came for developing an ICBM. This was known Project Valiant. Despite limited funding and technological capability DRDL decided to go head with the program until a smart DRDL Project Manager asked a very valid question to Govt representatives
"Supposing we manage acquire liquid fueled engine technology and our team manages to reverse-engineer it, will govt have finances to sustain it?" . The message was clear and given India's economic situation then and in future the project was terminated and funds diverted to ISRO

It would another 37 years later after success of SRE-1 by ISRO , which validated the most critical know how for ICBM RV, India started on Agni 5 ICBM in 2007
Space Capsule Recovery Experiment

Majority of the missile technologies we have to today has some civilian sector purpose and makes money for the Govt, providing the necessary economic sustainment of these weapons.

Any future military capability for India should ideally come from the private sector or atleast be economically sustainable.

Compare this situation with Hanlands across the Himalayas

While plans being laid for the Great Leap in 1958, CCP leadership fantasized the Great Leap would allow China to reach economic status of Soviet Union and USA, allowing China to build and sustain military capabilities similar to these nations.

Overjoyed with delusional fantasies CCP approved the expensive SSN project Type 091 Program pinning hopes on the Great Leap
(Note - India to this day hasn't built SSNs despite having an operational SSBN, given they so expensive.)
Multiple other missile programs like DF-2 and DF-3 were also approved

Great leap ended in a disaster of with millions of Chinese deaths

Any sane Govt would would have closed these projects and focused on recovery of its people, rather CCP decided to do the opposite by increasing number of missile programs like DF-4 and DF-5 ICBM program and also Chinese human spaceflight program in 1967
首批航天员19人胜出 为后来积累了宝贵的经验

End result - all this led to economic crisis and CCP desperately had to sell these missiles for fill its dwindling forex reserves and also the ended up nosiest known SSN , which very fittingly was named Han class
China’s Reported Ballistic Missile Sale to Saudi Arabia: Background and Potential Implications

By the looks of it PRC is bound to repeat Great Leap era mistakes while trying to match Washington in number of SSNs and Nuclear powered aircraft carriers

 

[beijingwalker]

When it comes military capabilities, having economically sustainable military capabilities is a must

This is because majority of the weapons procured by nation in their lifetime will never be used and provide deterrence value in peacetime.

Here is a lesson from history regarding that

Back in 1970, when India was in work developing its nuclear weapons capability, requirement came for developing an ICBM. This was known Project Valiant. Despite limited funding and technological capability DRDL decided to go head with the program until a smart DRDL Project Manager asked a very valid question to Govt representatives
"Supposing we manage acquire liquid fueled engine technology and our team manages to reverse-engineer it, will govt have finances to sustain it?" . The message was clear and given India's economic situation then and in future the project was terminated and funds diverted to ISRO

It would another 37 years later after success of SRE-1 by ISRO , which validated the most critical know how for ICBM RV, India started on Agni 5 ICBM in 2007
Space Capsule Recovery Experiment

Majority of the missile technologies we have to today has some civilian sector purpose and makes money for the Govt, providing the necessary economic sustainment of these weapons.

Any future military capability for India should ideally come from the private sector or atleast be economically sustainable.

Compare this situation with Hanlands across the Himalayas

While plans being laid for the Great Leap in 1958, CCP leadership fantasized the Great Leap would allow China to reach economic status of Soviet Union and USA, allowing China to build and sustain military capabilities similar to these nations.

Overjoyed with delusional fantasies CCP approved the expensive SSN project Type 091 Program pinning hopes on the Great Leap
(Note - India to this day hasn't built SSNs despite having an operational SSBN, given they so expensive.)
Multiple other missile programs like DF-2 and DF-3 were also approved

Great leap ended in a disaster of with millions of Chinese deaths

Any sane Govt would would have closed these projects and focused on recovery of its people, rather CCP decided to do the opposite by increasing number of missile programs like DF-4 and DF-5 ICBM program and also Chinese human spaceflight program in 1967
首批航天员19人胜出 为后来积累了宝贵的经验

End result - all this led to economic crisis and CCP desperately had to sell these missiles for fill its dwindling forex reserves and also the ended up nosiest known SSN , which very fittingly was named Han class
China’s Reported Ballistic Missile Sale to Saudi Arabia: Background and Potential Implications

By the looks of it PRC is bound to repeat Great Leap era mistakes while trying to match Washington in number of SSNs and Nuclear powered aircraft carriers

You can keep spinning lies about China if those lies can make you feel a bit comfortable when comparing with China, as for your last sentence of the post, do you know the percentage of defence budget to GDP of US and China?

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

You can keep spinning lies about China if those lies can make you feel a bit comfortable when comparing with China, as for your last sentence of the post, do you know the percentage of defence budget to GDP of US and China?

And you will continue to desperately justify worst of CCP disasters, that is like a person trying to find a pangolin scale in a heap of toe nail clippings

 

[beijingwalker]

And you will continue to desperately justify worst of CCP disasters, that is like a person trying to find a pangolin scale in a heap of toe nail clippings

Lol, if China is a disaster, what India would be?