India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:

[migflug]

after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india

 

[ashok321]

To involve L2 bidder EF Consortium or go with more upgraded Su 30 MKI

Above are options.
And not a upper hand in the negotiations.

 

[zootinali]

after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india

I don`t want to hear, that ,after years of negotiations, all we are going to get is just 2 squadron of jets. Serious WTF moment for all of us ,unless someone give us a definite picture of what actually happening.

 

[Manindra]

Above are options.
And not a upper hand in the negotiations.

These are arm twisting technique in negotiation.

 

[kaykay]

after reading almost 10 articles and hundreds of views i can say mmrca is dead . there is no confirmation of 108 to be made in india

Quoting you second time. Pls read the joint Indo-France statement again which clearly says that there is a separate process underway other than this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/586609217831772161

 

[Cry.me.a.River]

To involve L2 bidder EF Consortium or go with more upgraded Su 30 MKI

That was never on the table.

Negotiation with EF consortium would have taken further 3 more years at optimist best to conclude, and even then it was not guaranteed that they would succeed.

And selection of Su-30 would have defeated the very purpose of getting MMRCA. Su-30 , with all its superiority of Pakii airforce, still is maintenance wh0re which translated into low availability ,does not add anything to industrial capacity, and would have made IAF, Russian Air Force 2.0.



Everyone knew this and once rubicon of 2012 was passed, there was no going back to other options.

+You are assuming that price has not yet been worked out by GoI.

 

[Manindra]

That was never on the table.

Negotiation with EF consortium would have taken further 3 more years at optimist best to conclude, and even then it was not guaranteed that they would succeed.

And selection of Su-30 would have defeated the very purpose of getting MMRCA. Su-30 , with all its superiority of Pakii airforce, still is maintenance wh0re which translated into low availability ,does not add anything to industrial capacity, and would have made IAF, Russian Air Force 2.0.



Everyone knew this and once rubicon of 2012 was passed, there was no going back to other options.

Everybody know but it was just bargain from french.

 

[magudi]

Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?

Sir,

We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct

Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations

The new numbers stand at

108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)

 

[kaykay]

Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?

See this deal is for 36 Rafales in fly away condition and all 36 to be delivered in 4 years. While mmrca negotiations will go on further for 108 rafales to be built by HAL.

 

[magudi]

Hi there is so much confusion. Could you please explain me the following.
1.We are buying 36 jets in flyaway condition, is it just this ? are we going for follow up order for more jets afterwards , if yes than how many ?
2.Are we going to ever buy/construct the original 126 jets ? or if the number is going to be more than that ,as you have mentioned of 144 jets?

Sir,

We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct

Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations

The new numbers stand at

108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)

 

[shree835]

144 units of Rafale is very decent number, It's a great incentives to our Pakistan friend.

while India is building up deals, Pakistan shall do something to respond.

it shall not be only restrained to buy some second handed F16 to cope with Rafale.

@Horus

Indirectly Chini guys are very happy with this deal…Now pakistani is going to order some china maal… And they will claim so and so chini jet is super duper advance.

 

[Cry.me.a.River]

Everybody know but it was just bargain from french.

When Dassault already knew this, how could we have arm-twisted them by threatening to get Eurofighter or Su-30. They would have known that we are bluffing.


Not buying Rafael would have been equivalent to not buying MMRCA at all. That is a hand we would always have. If Dassault demand unrealistic price for rest of , simply don't but them. 36 Dassault in inventory may cost a little more, but it would be nothing in comparision to $15Bn business that Dassault would lose.

+ This is a deal with Government of France , and though governments only look out for their self interest, they don't spoil relations with other countries for pennies. Bringing GoF in negotiation would have tempering effect on price gouging tendency of Dassault.

 

[Manindra]

When Dassault already knew this, how could we have arm-twisted them by threatening to get Eurofighter or Su-30. They would have known that we are bluffing.


Not buying Rafael would have been equivalent to not buying MMRCA at all. That is a hand we would always have. If Dassault demand unrealistic price for rest of , simply don't but them. 36 Dassault in inventory may cost a little more, but it would be nothing in comparision to $15Bn business that Dassault would lose.

+ This is a deal with Government of France , and though governments only look out for their self interest, they don't spoil relations with other countries for pennies. Bringing GoF in negotiation would have tempering effect on price gouging tendency of Dassault.

more than 100 fighters over $ 120 million a piece does not called pennies so French government does not have much to say in large order.

 

[migflug]

L

Quoting you second time. Pls read the joint Indo-France statement again which clearly says that there is a separate process underway other than this.

https://twitter.com/x/status/586609217831772161

lets hope so .but here also its not clear if seperate process from what. Is it mmrca ? it could even mean govt to govt deal without dassault . We can get many meaning out of it

 

[Cry.me.a.River]

more than 100 fighters over $ 120 million a piece does not called pennies so French government does not have much to say in large order.

The pennies I am talking about is not whole cost of Rafael. GoF would never make Dassault sell Rafael for loss. They would not even make them take a steep cut in profit.

Pennies here is the differential between price the India thinks is justified (we do not expect Dassault to make zero profit) and what Dassault is trying to get from India.

Sir,

We have essentially changed the RFP if i understand correct

Mmrca is not dead, it's still in negotiations

The new numbers stand at

108 (made in india - negotiations not yet complete ) +36 (ready to fly from France- separate deal - agreed in principle ) + 63 (follow on for later)

I don't think that.

We had option of buying 18+63 = 81 Rafaels off the shelf. I don't think anyone could take India to court unless we breach that limit of 81.