Ammyy
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 7,393
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
India to buy 60-63 Rafales jets off the shelf from France; MMRCA deal off:
- Thread starter SuperSubrayan
- Start date
帅的一匹
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2012
- Messages
- 12,820
- Reaction score
- -3
- Country
- Location
Pakistan is facing predicment in it's economy, don't tell me you won't bully them if China leave it alone.
India is dedicated in backstabbing, see 1962.Just like you backstab in previous wars??
Ammyy
BANNED
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2010
- Messages
- 7,393
- Reaction score
- -12
- Country
- Location
Some thing like Chola incident where you got spanked by India.
PARIKRAMA
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2014
- Messages
- 4,871
- Reaction score
- 185
- Country
- Location
Explained: Taking off
Deviating from the ongoing negotiations with French defence major Dassault Aviation, India on Friday directly asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 18 in fly-away condition. While the announcement during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ongoing visit to France set the ball rolling for IAF, which has been in desperate need of fighter jets, ambiguity continues over the legalities and the number of aircraft in the multi-billion deal. Pranav Kulkarni explains
What does this announcement mean?
Going by the statement, India and France have now agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement for supply of aircraft on terms that would be “better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation” as part of the separate process underway. This indicates that India and France will now be dealing with the contract on a government-to-government (G-to-G) basis. Prima facie, it also marks a success for India which has been negotiating hard for lower price and maintenance besides other aspects of the contract.
How is this different from the original proposal?
The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.
What happens to the role of HAL?
As per the defence procurement procedure, every contract costing more than Rs 300 crore has an offset obligation of 30 per cent. This means that the manufacturer has to dispose of contracts worth 30 per cent of the cost of the contract to Indian industry. In case of MMRCA, the government had increased offset obligation to 50 per cent which benefitted the Indian industry. Going just by the statement, ambiguity continues over the offset obligation. The role of HAL is also not clear. The contract, in its earlier form, fitted well in the government’s Make in India slogan but now it remains to be seen as to how the government involves Indian industry in the deal.
When will the aircraft be delivered?
The government has clearly told France that the aircraft will have to be delivered in “time frame compatible with the operational requirement of IAF”. India has also asked the French government to deliver “the same configuration” that has been tested and approved by IAF. Ideally, as per the original terms, the first 18 aircraft were to be delivered within three years of signing the contract. With changed numbers, the timeframe may change.
How critical is the contract for IAF?
Very important. The IAF first expressed interest in the MMRCA in 2001. The Request for Proposal was issued in 2007 and from among six contenders-the Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault Rafale, the final two contenders — Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted and Rafale was declared lowest bidder in January 2012. From stipulated strength of 42, the IAF is now down to 34 operational squadrons. While a few of its legacy aircraft such as Mirage 2000, Jaguars have been upgraded, others need immediate replacement. The Rafales will thus fill the gap between the yet-to-be inducted LCA Tejas and the frontline Sukhoi fighter jets.
But why the delay? Is 36 sufficient to fill the number of squadrons?
No, 36 will be sufficient to create just two squadrons, whereas 126 were to create nearly six squadrons. The clarity on the further agreement will unveil how the IAF plans to meet its operational squadron strength. Meanwhile, Reuters quoted Modi as saying in France that, “the civil servants will discuss the contract in more detail and continue negotiations.” The delay in the contract in the recent past was primarily due to disagreement between Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault over the guarantee of aircraft manufactured by HAL. While Dassault was reluctant to take responsibility of aircraft manufactured by HAL, India wanted Dassault to take guarantee of the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL. In February, the two sides clarified that all differences have been sorted out.
Explained: Taking off | The Indian Express
Deviating from the ongoing negotiations with French defence major Dassault Aviation, India on Friday directly asked France to supply 36 Rafale fighter jets instead of 18 in fly-away condition. While the announcement during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s ongoing visit to France set the ball rolling for IAF, which has been in desperate need of fighter jets, ambiguity continues over the legalities and the number of aircraft in the multi-billion deal. Pranav Kulkarni explains
What does this announcement mean?
Going by the statement, India and France have now agreed to sign an inter-governmental agreement for supply of aircraft on terms that would be “better than conveyed by Dassault Aviation” as part of the separate process underway. This indicates that India and France will now be dealing with the contract on a government-to-government (G-to-G) basis. Prima facie, it also marks a success for India which has been negotiating hard for lower price and maintenance besides other aspects of the contract.
How is this different from the original proposal?
The original proposal involved buying 18 aircraft from Dassault in fly-away condition while the rest 108 were to be manufactured in India under transfer of technology by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). According to the statement, the number of aircraft to be purchased in fly-away condition has increased to 36. The cost of the 36 aircraft is now pegged at nearly 4 billion Euros. What has also changed is that instead of negotiating with Dassault, the project is now a G-to-G deal.
What happens to the role of HAL?
As per the defence procurement procedure, every contract costing more than Rs 300 crore has an offset obligation of 30 per cent. This means that the manufacturer has to dispose of contracts worth 30 per cent of the cost of the contract to Indian industry. In case of MMRCA, the government had increased offset obligation to 50 per cent which benefitted the Indian industry. Going just by the statement, ambiguity continues over the offset obligation. The role of HAL is also not clear. The contract, in its earlier form, fitted well in the government’s Make in India slogan but now it remains to be seen as to how the government involves Indian industry in the deal.
When will the aircraft be delivered?
The government has clearly told France that the aircraft will have to be delivered in “time frame compatible with the operational requirement of IAF”. India has also asked the French government to deliver “the same configuration” that has been tested and approved by IAF. Ideally, as per the original terms, the first 18 aircraft were to be delivered within three years of signing the contract. With changed numbers, the timeframe may change.
How critical is the contract for IAF?
Very important. The IAF first expressed interest in the MMRCA in 2001. The Request for Proposal was issued in 2007 and from among six contenders-the Russian MiG-35, American F/A-18 Super Hornet, Swedish Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon and French Dassault Rafale, the final two contenders — Rafale and Typhoon were shortlisted and Rafale was declared lowest bidder in January 2012. From stipulated strength of 42, the IAF is now down to 34 operational squadrons. While a few of its legacy aircraft such as Mirage 2000, Jaguars have been upgraded, others need immediate replacement. The Rafales will thus fill the gap between the yet-to-be inducted LCA Tejas and the frontline Sukhoi fighter jets.
But why the delay? Is 36 sufficient to fill the number of squadrons?
No, 36 will be sufficient to create just two squadrons, whereas 126 were to create nearly six squadrons. The clarity on the further agreement will unveil how the IAF plans to meet its operational squadron strength. Meanwhile, Reuters quoted Modi as saying in France that, “the civil servants will discuss the contract in more detail and continue negotiations.” The delay in the contract in the recent past was primarily due to disagreement between Indian Ministry of Defence and Dassault over the guarantee of aircraft manufactured by HAL. While Dassault was reluctant to take responsibility of aircraft manufactured by HAL, India wanted Dassault to take guarantee of the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL. In February, the two sides clarified that all differences have been sorted out.
Explained: Taking off | The Indian Express
migflug
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2014
- Messages
- 1,102
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
Calculated political push, not regular process led to Rafale deal; all you need to know
SOURCE: ECONOMIC TIMES
After a series of twists and turns, a multi-billion dollar deal for new fighter jets for the Air Force has hit the last mile with the NDA government determined to iron out differences and wrap up negotiations with an out-of-the-box solution to end a two-year deadlock.
A test of political will to find an innovative approach to ink a contract that was threatening to get out of hand, but one that had significant strategic and geopolitical implications, has been on display in the lead up to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris, where the Rafale deal has been firmed up along with a memorandum of understanding on joint defence production in India.
The reworked deal—buying 36 fighters outright with the option for more could work out to up to $7.5 billion and scrapping an earlier requirement to manufacture 108 jets in India—has the potential to pump in at least $2.3 billion into the Indian defence manufacturing sector, a major chunk of which will go to the private industry.
While the mega deal—initiated in 2007 with six competitors—had been chugging along since 2012 when Dassault’s Rafale was declared the winner, signs had appeared in the past few weeks that for the first time since coming to power, the NDA government was looking at walking the distance, provided New Delhi did not have to make significant concessions.
Dassault had been struggling to get the contract through in the last year of the UPA, which had gone slow on all defence procurements. The newfound political will in New Delhi, as well as a strong diplomatic push from Paris, offered the final chance to bag an order that was widely classified as the world’s biggest open tender for fighter aircraft.
While many differences had been sorted out, a deadlock persisted for almost two years on two major sticking points. Innovative solutions were needed for both, something that the NDA government is not known to shy away from.
The easier one to sort out was liability for quality and delays in production. As per the original terms, French manufacturer Dassault had responsibility for timely delivery of the fighters as well as technical defects. But as the final negotiations started, the French firm raised the point that in case of delays by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd—nominated to produce the fighter in India—penalties would be unfair.
The other sticking point was pricing. The deal is complex—it involves the calculation of life cycle costs, carries a major technology transfer component to HAL and has a clause that requires Dassault to invest half the value of the contract in India. After negotiations on the transfer of technology and the setting up of a production line in India with HAL, it emerged that the cost that Dassault had projected for the India-made Rafale would be surpassed. The Indian PSU would be required to purchase more equipment, facilities and technology than anticipated to deliver the fighter on time, escalating the costs. Again, a novel solution was needed. One proposal was to divide the cost of the production line as Dassault had offered to use it to make different platforms such as its Falcon executive jets and unmanned aerial vehicles, which are churned out of the same line in France. This would potentially lower the per-unit cost of the Rafale fighter.
While in 2007, the government had assessed the deal at $10 billion, the cost of 126 Rafale fighters had swelled to an estimated $22 billion by 2014.
What worked was a commitment by the government for the outright purchase of 36 jets. This would keep the French company in profit, do away with HAL’s liability issues and meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force, which is battling a crisis with obsolete fighter aircraft.
Going the final mile on the deal meant that some concessions have to be granted by both India and France. Dassault is likely to bend within reason, adhering to the commitments required by India on a fair price for the fighters, even at the cost of a dip in profit. For India, the outright purchase comes at the cost of the Make in India concept.
When it started in 2007, the fighter deal was touted as pivotal to moving modern aerospace and military technology to India. As per the original contract, the winner would have to set up a production line here. The outright purchase of 36 jets with the option for more means that will not happen immediately, although the option remains to manufacture subsequent orders in India.
However, caught between a rock and a hard place—the urgent need for new fighters and the inability to write off exceptions and concessions for the French firm, many of them made by the UPA—the Modi government has gone for the out-ofthe-box solution.
The scrapping of the original contract for 126 fighters is also a subtle message by the government about the UPA’s inability and bungling in dealing with a complex matter. An argument being made is that it would have been impossible to sign the deal in the form that was presented to the NDA government.
There were too many concessions and deviations from the original terms and conditions, which the bureaucracy would have been reluctant to sign off on. This would have forced a political directive or the scrapping of the deal. To offset criticism that the deal does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India, the government is likely to insist that the French company invest 30-50% of the contract value in India and rope in the Indian private sector as a major, global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates. The government also says that manufacturing of greater number of these jets in India is still not ruled out and talks on that could continue over the next few months.
Most of the investments that Dassault will need to make are likely to go to the Indian private sector— from the supply of sub-systems for the Rafale to linking into the global supply chain of Dassault for other products such as commercial jets and combat unmanned aerial vehicles. By conservative estimates, the amount that Dassault is likely to invest to meet offset obligations over the next 5-6 years would be over $2.5 billion.
Other lucrative contracts for maintenance and overhaul of the fighters in India would also be up for grabs—something that HAL and the private sector will need to fight for. Beyond the strategic need for new fighters that will enable the Air Force to maintain a combative edge in the region, the Rafale deal had implications for bilateral relations with France, which has been a reliable partner for India.
The partnership goes beyond defence and extends to civil nuclear cooperation and space. All these aspects were kept in mind while seeking a middle path on the deal—buying the fighters and scrapping the complex process initiated by the previous government.
One thing is clear: The deal has been decided by a carefully calculated political push, not by the regular process or bureaucratic approval.
Aq to this article mmrca has been scrapped???
SOURCE: ECONOMIC TIMES
After a series of twists and turns, a multi-billion dollar deal for new fighter jets for the Air Force has hit the last mile with the NDA government determined to iron out differences and wrap up negotiations with an out-of-the-box solution to end a two-year deadlock.
A test of political will to find an innovative approach to ink a contract that was threatening to get out of hand, but one that had significant strategic and geopolitical implications, has been on display in the lead up to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris, where the Rafale deal has been firmed up along with a memorandum of understanding on joint defence production in India.
The reworked deal—buying 36 fighters outright with the option for more could work out to up to $7.5 billion and scrapping an earlier requirement to manufacture 108 jets in India—has the potential to pump in at least $2.3 billion into the Indian defence manufacturing sector, a major chunk of which will go to the private industry.
While the mega deal—initiated in 2007 with six competitors—had been chugging along since 2012 when Dassault’s Rafale was declared the winner, signs had appeared in the past few weeks that for the first time since coming to power, the NDA government was looking at walking the distance, provided New Delhi did not have to make significant concessions.
Dassault had been struggling to get the contract through in the last year of the UPA, which had gone slow on all defence procurements. The newfound political will in New Delhi, as well as a strong diplomatic push from Paris, offered the final chance to bag an order that was widely classified as the world’s biggest open tender for fighter aircraft.
While many differences had been sorted out, a deadlock persisted for almost two years on two major sticking points. Innovative solutions were needed for both, something that the NDA government is not known to shy away from.
The easier one to sort out was liability for quality and delays in production. As per the original terms, French manufacturer Dassault had responsibility for timely delivery of the fighters as well as technical defects. But as the final negotiations started, the French firm raised the point that in case of delays by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd—nominated to produce the fighter in India—penalties would be unfair.
The other sticking point was pricing. The deal is complex—it involves the calculation of life cycle costs, carries a major technology transfer component to HAL and has a clause that requires Dassault to invest half the value of the contract in India. After negotiations on the transfer of technology and the setting up of a production line in India with HAL, it emerged that the cost that Dassault had projected for the India-made Rafale would be surpassed. The Indian PSU would be required to purchase more equipment, facilities and technology than anticipated to deliver the fighter on time, escalating the costs. Again, a novel solution was needed. One proposal was to divide the cost of the production line as Dassault had offered to use it to make different platforms such as its Falcon executive jets and unmanned aerial vehicles, which are churned out of the same line in France. This would potentially lower the per-unit cost of the Rafale fighter.
While in 2007, the government had assessed the deal at $10 billion, the cost of 126 Rafale fighters had swelled to an estimated $22 billion by 2014.
What worked was a commitment by the government for the outright purchase of 36 jets. This would keep the French company in profit, do away with HAL’s liability issues and meet the operational requirements of the Indian Air Force, which is battling a crisis with obsolete fighter aircraft.
Going the final mile on the deal meant that some concessions have to be granted by both India and France. Dassault is likely to bend within reason, adhering to the commitments required by India on a fair price for the fighters, even at the cost of a dip in profit. For India, the outright purchase comes at the cost of the Make in India concept.
When it started in 2007, the fighter deal was touted as pivotal to moving modern aerospace and military technology to India. As per the original contract, the winner would have to set up a production line here. The outright purchase of 36 jets with the option for more means that will not happen immediately, although the option remains to manufacture subsequent orders in India.
However, caught between a rock and a hard place—the urgent need for new fighters and the inability to write off exceptions and concessions for the French firm, many of them made by the UPA—the Modi government has gone for the out-ofthe-box solution.
The scrapping of the original contract for 126 fighters is also a subtle message by the government about the UPA’s inability and bungling in dealing with a complex matter. An argument being made is that it would have been impossible to sign the deal in the form that was presented to the NDA government.
There were too many concessions and deviations from the original terms and conditions, which the bureaucracy would have been reluctant to sign off on. This would have forced a political directive or the scrapping of the deal. To offset criticism that the deal does not bring manufacturing and jobs to India, the government is likely to insist that the French company invest 30-50% of the contract value in India and rope in the Indian private sector as a major, global chain supplier to Dassault and its associates. The government also says that manufacturing of greater number of these jets in India is still not ruled out and talks on that could continue over the next few months.
Most of the investments that Dassault will need to make are likely to go to the Indian private sector— from the supply of sub-systems for the Rafale to linking into the global supply chain of Dassault for other products such as commercial jets and combat unmanned aerial vehicles. By conservative estimates, the amount that Dassault is likely to invest to meet offset obligations over the next 5-6 years would be over $2.5 billion.
Other lucrative contracts for maintenance and overhaul of the fighters in India would also be up for grabs—something that HAL and the private sector will need to fight for. Beyond the strategic need for new fighters that will enable the Air Force to maintain a combative edge in the region, the Rafale deal had implications for bilateral relations with France, which has been a reliable partner for India.
The partnership goes beyond defence and extends to civil nuclear cooperation and space. All these aspects were kept in mind while seeking a middle path on the deal—buying the fighters and scrapping the complex process initiated by the previous government.
One thing is clear: The deal has been decided by a carefully calculated political push, not by the regular process or bureaucratic approval.
Aq to this article mmrca has been scrapped???
Suman
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2015
- Messages
- 453
- Reaction score
- -1
- Country
- Location
Its one time investment anyway
ashok321
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 17,942
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
migflug
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2014
- Messages
- 1,102
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15
Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CN
NO NEWS ON MMRCA.WHAT THE F***K. ALL NEWS REPORTING ABT 36 ONLY ,NOTHING ON MMRCA
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15
Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CN
NO NEWS ON MMRCA.WHAT THE F***K. ALL NEWS REPORTING ABT 36 ONLY ,NOTHING ON MMRCA
ashok321
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2010
- Messages
- 17,942
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
Ok guys.
How many of you think Subramanian Swamy will knock the SC door on Rafale & break his BJP ties?
So you think Sonia's 20 billion overseas stash came from thin air?
How many of you think Subramanian Swamy will knock the SC door on Rafale & break his BJP ties?
Hope so
These people have come to think of anything related to Gandhi's as tainted
So you think Sonia's 20 billion overseas stash came from thin air?
migflug
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2014
- Messages
- 1,102
- Reaction score
- 4
- Country
- Location
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15
Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.
AGAIN NO NEWS ON MMRCA OR 108 TO BE BUILT IN INDIA.
Business Standard, 11th Apr 15
Setting aside the norms of New Delhi’s procurement rulebooks, India and France marked Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s visit to Paris on Friday with an announcement that the Indian Air Force (IAF) would buy 36 Rafale fighters in fly-away condition. These will equip two IAF squadrons with 18 aircraft each.
“I have spoken to President Hollande about buying 36 Rafale jets in fly-away condition”, said Mr Modi, addressing a joint press conference in Paris. He said the terms of the tender would be modified accordingly.
The announcement is silent about the plan to build the Rafale in Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), a central part of the tender. So far, this multi-billion dollar procurement, which was conceived as a springboard for the modernization of India’s aerospace industry, will only benefit that of France.
Friday’s announcement underlines the continuing failure by India and France to take to a logical conclusion the IAF’s August 2007 tender for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA), of which 18 were to be supplied fully-built and 108 built in India by HAL. After touting its handling of the tender as an example of probity and professional skill, New Delhi has inexplicably altered the terms of the tender, switching over to a single-vendor, government-to-government negotiation.
Since 2007, the IAF has evaluated and test-flown Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet; Lockheed Martin’s F-16IN Super Viper; Saab’s Gripen NG; RAC-MiG’s MiG-35; Eurofighter GmbH’s Typhoon and Dassault’s Rafale. In April 2011, the first four vendors were told their aircraft had not met IAF requirements. On January 31, 2012, Dassault was informed that its bid was the cheapest.
Since then, Dassault’s clarification of numerous grey areas in its financial bid led Indian negotiators to conclude that Dassault’s bid was significantly costlier than it had first appeared.
With Dassault now awarded an order for 36 Rafale fighters under arbitrarily altered rules, rival vendors could legitimately object, particularly Eurofighter GmbH, which can credibly argue that it would supply 36 fully built fighters cheaper than Dassault.
Dassault has only 180 Rafales on order from the French military, with Egypt expressing interest in buying another 24. By contrast, six nations have ordered 571 Typhoons, allowing Eurofighter to amortise development and infrastructure costs over thrice as many aircraft.
The government has stayed with the Rafale, though IAF chief, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, clarified in Bengaluru in February that any fighter would do. "It is important we have an MMRCA. I would not say Rafale, but we need to have it [MMRCA] in the quickest possible time," Raha said.
Air Vice Marshal (Retired) Nirdosh Tyagi, who oversaw the MMRCA contest, says it is hard to justify buying only a small number of Rafales. It makes little sense to have an air force that already has seven different fighters --- Sukhoi-30MKI, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21, Mirage 2000, Jaguar and Tejas LCA --- create spare part stocks, depots and maintenance infrastructure for just two squadrons of yet another fighter type.
“Thirty-six fighters are neither here nor there. The MMRCA was processed from the start as a 126-fighter contract, with an option for 63 more. Indigenous manufacture through technology transfer is crucial”, Tyagi says.
If India contracts for 36 Rafale fighters, Dassault will be in a commanding position to negotiate favourable terms for the remaining 90 fighters. If India does not agree to Dassault’s terms, it would be left with two squadrons of Rafales, with no indigenization.
Military analyst Bharat Karnad points out that India’s Rafale purchase is essential for Dassault, whose lack of orders has raised questions about its very existence. “What is India getting in return, as the French laugh their way to the bank? HAL’s production plans are in limbo; “Make in India” is uncertain; and we are buying the most expensive plane on offer. Why?” Karnad asks.
Karnad estimates that, with missiles and payload included, each Rafale would cost between $150-200 million. India, therefore, would end up paying $5.4 to $7.2 billion for 36 Rafales, about twice the cost of the indigenized Sukhoi-30MKI.
It remains unclear whether the defence ministry’s “cost negotiation committee” (CNC), which has been deadlocked in negotiations with Dassault for three years now, will continue negotiations for the remaining 90 fighters. The CNC had made it clear that Dassault would have to improve its earlier bid for supply-cum-licence manufacture. Now, the government’s decision to buy 36 fully built Rafale significantly undermines the CNC.
AGAIN NO NEWS ON MMRCA OR 108 TO BE BUILT IN INDIA.
Similar threads
