India to Build 6 Nuclear-Powered Submarines - Navy Chief

[gslv mk3]

THIS is from the official Press Release

By PIB ?

 

[Nilgiri]

WOW .... I just have to hand it to you. Your lucid assumptions take precedence over the Press Release by the Indian Navy and the Govt. of India ? .......... Amazing Hubris.

THIS is from the official Press Release and invitation to Major Newspaper in India when Arihant was Unveiled.

INS Arihant: All you want to know about India’s first nuclear-powered submarine - daily.bhaskar.com

Class & type: Arihant-class submarine
Type: SSBN
Length: 111 m (364 ft)[1]
Beam: 15 m (49 ft)[1]
Draft: 11 m (36 ft)[1]
Propulsion: PWR using 40% enriched uranium fuel (80 MWe );[1] one turbine (47,000 hp/70 MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller (estimated)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (980 ft) (estimated)
Complement: 95–100 officers and men
Sensors and
processing systems: BEL USHUS
Armament: 6 x 533mm torpedoes
12 x Sagarika (missile) SLBM
Or
4 x K-4

That article looks slip-shod to me. Daily bhaskar.com? Never heard of it.

47000 HP does not equal 70 MW.

 

[Providence]

WOW .... I just have to hand it to you. Your lucid assumptions take precedence over the Press Release by the Indian Navy and the Govt. of India ? .......... Amazing Hubris.

THIS is from the official Press Release and invitation to Major Newspaper in India when Arihant was Unveiled.

INS Arihant: All you want to know about India’s first nuclear-powered submarine - daily.bhaskar.com

Class & type: Arihant-class submarine
Type: SSBN
Length: 111 m (364 ft)[1]
Beam: 15 m (49 ft)[1]
Draft: 11 m (36 ft)[1]
Propulsion: PWR using 40% enriched uranium fuel (80 MWe );[1] one turbine (47,000 hp/70 MW); one shaft; one 7-bladed, high-skew propeller (estimated)
Range: unlimited except by food supplies
Test depth: 300 m (980 ft) (estimated)
Complement: 95–100 officers and men
Sensors and
processing systems: BEL USHUS
Armament: 6 x 533mm torpedoes
12 x Sagarika (missile) SLBM
Or
4 x K-4

I admire your sensibilities

Even russians have the humility to accept that they spied out the single crystal technology from UK.

That article looks slip-shod to me. Daily bhaskar.com? Never heard of it.

47000 HP does not equal 70 MW.

What he meant is 70MW translates to 35MW considering 50% efficiency which translates to 47000 hp. His argument is supposedly some power company in india have developed steam turbine with 50% efficiency for commercial power generation so it means in miniaturized nuclear reactors such extrapolations of assumption will hold.

 

[Nilgiri]

Even russians have the humility to accept that they spied out the single crystal technology from UK.

I thought it was just the early alloys at the rolls royce engine factory where they used shoes to pick up filings?

Single crystal tech was known from quite an early stage than one would imagine. Making an efficient manufacturing and QA process was the hard part, the Soviets did eventually gain a solid repertoire for it. But overall their tech is still behind the West by half a generation given their fabrication process methods (but not a real lack of theoretical RnD from what I have seen of their papers), some of which are still relatively archaic and result in noticeably less efficient, lower MTBO engines. Its the main problem when you have lack of funding for the production research side of things.

 

[Providence]

I thought it was just the early alloys at the rolls royce engine factory where they used shoes to pick up filings?

Single crystal tech was known from quite an early stage than one would imagine. Making an efficient manufacturing and QA process was the hard part, the Soviets did eventually gain a solid repertoire for it. But overall their tech is still behind the West by half a generation given their fabrication process methods (but not a real lack of theoretical RnD from what I have seen of their papers), some of which are still relatively archaic and result in noticeably less efficient, lower MTBO engines. Its the main problem when you have lack of funding for the production research side of things.

I am not saying the work by russians was simply a copy but they did get valuable information which gave an altogether new dimension to their research for jet engines.

Russian tech basically is at a level where you can say, "it makes things work". It's far from " wow ! we created some technological marvel here"

 

[Nilgiri]

I am not saying the work by russians was simply a copy but they did get valuable information which have an altogether new dimension to their research for jet engines.

Russian tech basically is at a level where you can say, "it makes things work". It's far from " wow ! we created some technological marvel here"

Oh they did directly copy stuff too early on. The rolls royce nene for one (but the brits handed them over for free as part of a goodwill gesture). Didn't take them long to completely reverse engineer it and put their version of it on the Mig-15 and use em against their former allies in the Korean war.

Till the 60s their early jet engine material RnD needed significant "foreign" input...i.e espionage. Hence the famous shoe filing story (for material to go to analysis). Why test hundreds, even thousands of alloy combinations when you can get a direct idea/answer when the potential future enemy invites you to tour their facility?

But single cystal tech was known as a process since the early 20th century....is all im saying.

Its particular issues in the jet engine industry revolve around manufacturing processes that the Soviets did much by themselves (for once)....though with not so stellar results compared to the west.

 

[sankranti]

That article looks slip-shod to me. Daily bhaskar.com? Never heard of it.

47000 HP does not equal 70 MW.

LOL.....WTF. Its the Dainik Bhaskar group, which is the largest print Media group in India.

Dainik Bhaskar is the 11 most widely read newspaper in the world, published in 14 States and in 4 languages. Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi and English.

It does not get any more real than this.

Now consider this,

47,000 Hp translate to 35 KW.
TWO such Steam Turbines translate to 35KW + 35KW = 70 KW.

The earlier Charlie class Submarine India had leased (the first Chakra I) had a similar design and layout. It had Two Steam Turbines delivering power to a single Shaft.

The Victor class with 6000 Ton displacement has the same design. It has Two 31 KHp steam Turbines attached to a single Shaft.


Either of the two explanation might hold true. What we do know is that the Arihant has a 70 MW Steam Turbine as per data released to the Press.

 

[Nilgiri]

LOL.....WTF. Its the Dainik Bhaskar group, which is the largest print Media group in India.

Dainik Bhaskar is the 11 most widely read newspaper in the world, published in 14 States and in 4 languages. Hindi, Gujarati, Marathi and English.

It does not get any more real than this.

Yah well their article on this is terrible. The PIB source is only for the picture. No info given on where they got the rest of the info from. It looks like they just copied and pasted from somewhere (wiki?) because there is still a legacy source marker "[1]" in the text.

Now consider this,

47,000 Hp translate to 35 KW.
TWO such Steam Turbines translate to 35KW + 35KW = 70 KW.

The earlier Charlie class Submarine India had leased (the first Chakra I) had a similar design and layout. It had Two Steam Turbines delivering power to a single Shaft.

The Victor class with 6000 Ton displacement has the same design. It has Two 31 KHp steam Turbines attached to a single Shaft.

But the sources I have seen all clearly state one turbine, one shaft.

I think we have beaten this issue to death enough, lets wait for more solid numbers to be released. Arihant is still very much a project who's numbers are still hush hush.

 

[sankranti]

I admire your sensibilities

Even russians have the humility to accept that they spied out the single crystal technology from UK.

LOL.... what about US Humility ? You are far too much obsessed about Indian and Russian Humility

 

[Providence]

LOL.... what about US Humility ? You are far too much obsessed about Indian and Russian Humility

What ? That US employed a lot of Nazi era scientists post WW_II ? That is a fact and needs no acceptance or denial !!

 

[oproh]

lmao

 

[sankranti]

Yah well their article on this is terrible. The PIB source is only for the picture. No info given on where they got the rest of the info from. It looks like they just copied and pasted from somewhere (wiki?) because there is still a legacy source marker "[1]" in the text.

That [1] could be the number of units. I have seen RFPs of IN showing the same indication style.

But the sources I have seen all clearly state one turbine, one shaft.

I think we have beaten this issue to death enough, lets wait for more solid numbers to be released. Arihant is still very much a project who's numbers are still hush hush.

All the sources you have seen ALSO mentions 70 KW/47000 HP. ......... so rather than reject it off hand, it is far more sensible to make out what it means.

You are dismissing data just because you cannot decipher it.

What ? That US employed a lot of Nazi era scientists post WW_II ? That is a fact and needs no acceptance or denial !!

When we do that, I will let you know. But for the moment there is clear report that the Indian submarine has Indian Nuclear Reactor made by Indian Scientists and Indian company IN India.

Russians provided consultancy help, the same way UK provided consultancy help to the US build your Aircraft carrier or BAE or RollsRoyce helped you umpteen projects.

 

[Providence]

When we do that, I will let you know. But for the moment there is clear report that the Indian submarine has Indian Nuclear Reactor made by Indian Scientists and Indian company IN India.

Russians provided consultancy help, the same way UK provided consultancy help to the US build your Aircraft carrier or BAE or RollsRoyce helped you umpteen projects.

So you finally agreed in principle ! Cool

 

[Nilgiri]

All the sources you have seen ALSO mentions 70 KW/47000 HP. ......... so rather than reject it off hand, it is far more sensible to make out what it means.

You are dismissing data just because you cannot decipher it.

I am not finding any original source from the Indian Navy or Indian govt establishing a 70 MW steam turbine.

All that is somewhat "officially" established is that the reactor is 83 MW.

A steam turbine is definitely not going to output 70MW from a 83MW thermal feed reactor. If you know the basics of turbomachinery in this scale of operation, you would know why. If its the input power for the Steam Turbine, thats the first time I have ever seen something quoted in this fasion...since we are always only interested in how many horses it outputs.

No one quotes the input, just check any other nuclear submarine page on wiki. The MW and HP are simply equivalent power outputs (in different units) of the steam turbine.

 

[sankranti]

What he meant is 70MW translates to 35MW considering 50% efficiency which translates to 47000 hp. His argument is supposedly some power company in india have developed steam turbine with 50% efficiency for commercial power generation so it means in miniaturized nuclear reactors such extrapolations of assumption will hold.

I am talking about BHEL which is a 6.5 Billion $ company in India which provide Steam Turbines to Indian Navy

They are the most likely one's to provide the Steam Turbines for Arihant and they have Steam Turbines with 50% efficiency as part of their portfolio.

So BHEL not only provide Steam Turbines for COMMERCIAL POWER GENERATION, they have also provide Turbines to the Indian Navy.

I am not finding any original source from the Indian Navy or Indian govt establishing a 70 MW steam turbine.

All that is officially established is that the reactor is 83 MW.

A steam turbine is definitely not going to output 70MW from a 83MW thermal feed reactor. If you know the basics of turbomachinery in this scale of operation, you would know why. If its the input power for the Steam Turbine, thats the first time I have ever seen something quoted in this fasion...since we are always only interested in how many horses it outputs.

No one quotes the input, just check any other nuclear submarine page on wiki. The MW and HP are simply equivalent power outputs (in different units) of the steam turbine.

Where is it official established that it's a 83 MW reactor ?

If you go by Media reports, the same media reports also mention 70 MW Steam Turbine.

You cannot Cherry Pick what is convenient to your prejudice.

When it has been clearly stated that the output of the Turbine is 35 MW then why do you insist of demolishing a Straw-man ?

Considering that the inspiration for the ATV has been Charlie I and since it had a dual Steam Turbine serving 1 Shaft it is also possible that this is the right conclusion.

After all if the Steam Turbine gets damaged in a Nuclear Submarine it is not possible to replace it or even repair it due to Radiation contamination.

SO it is far more likely that a dual turbine arrangement is made to ensure redundancy and to extend life of the system.