India to base first squadron of Rafale fighter jets in Bengal

[Sloth 22]

No matter what you all say IAF is trying to secure Raffay from Pakistani missile strikes. They don't want those $8 billion destroyed on the runway or while standing in the hangers. They don't need Raffy for the Bangali's it not strategical and there can be one more point to this. As of China's presence in south China sea they needed them there but the distance is too long even with mid air refueling, unless they use the only old piece of Air ship carrier they have. but in that case the carrier need to be upgraded and India is not moving on the path of upgrading the carrier so Missiles are the threat they seem to be avoiding from currently.

There are to be 3 dedicated air bases.

Two will be near western borders.

 

[Qutb-ud-din Aybak]

PAL u need to read what you post ..... this second link is a copy paste job of the first link!!!

and the second line -really??? - where is the source!!! NO SOURCE!!!

https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/
Alan Warnes ��@warnesyworld 24 Jun

Reliable sources tell me the Pak AF's new F-16 MLUs consistently beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons during manoeuvres in Taif, RSA in May.

Alan Warnes ��@warnesyworld 25 Jun

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief...

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/#ixzz4V8yH68JN
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
F-6 in PAF Service
By: Alan Warnes

In March 2002, when the Shenyang F-6 was retired, it heralded the end of an aircraft that was held dear by many PAF pilots. It was a fighter brought drama and laughter to the PAF ranks. The Chinese jet had served the PAF since 1966, flew operations with ten squadrons and was a war veteran.

Everyone has a tale or two to tell about the aircraft and the retirement ceremony was tinged with sadness, in seeing a stalwart go. The F-6 is the only aircraft to ever be involved in a collision with a train! A two seat FT-6 hit once, in August, 1993, while it was travelling along the railway line that cuts across the runway and taxiway at PAF Base Peshawar. Luckily the pilots of the two-seater survived but the aircraft was a write off.

In the absence of navigation aids (other than an erratic radio compass) getting lost was all in a day's work for the F-6 pilot! Fortunately, local-lost procedures always came in handy and the PAF was spared any diplomatic fuss because the F-6s always returned to their home bases.

On a more serious matter, the jet was the original 'widow-maker' until Martin Baker seats were introduced in 1975. Its biggest flaw was flicking into a spin at slow speeds, particularly for those uninitiated in the art of slow speed maneuvering. The lack of a dual seater trainer was another drawback, so not too surprisingly, first flights were hazardous. Students were known to take off with full military power (recommended), afterburner (usually for air shows) and even rated power - when scraping the arrester barrier was almost guaranteed! Standardization came a bit later with the advent of FT-6. One former F-6 pilot told the author: "The left throttle was manipulated by the little finger and the right one with the rest of the palm, for this is how the two throttles were shaped! And on take-off, if the little finger wasn't where it was supposed to be, you could find yourself in the woods somewhere to the right of the runway. Pilots flew at high speeds during base turn and final approach to stay clear of stalls, but ended up in the arrestor barrier one time too many. It was commonly said that the safety dictated an addition of 5 km per hour extra if you were married and an additional 5 km per hour for each kid."

However its biggest advantage was easy maintenance and a quick turn-around. It was rugged too, and could take a lot of punishment. It was against this backdrop that the aircraft played a major part in the careers of a large number of PAF fighter pilots - many of whom were in senior positions within the PAF when it was finally laid to rest at Samungali, near Quetta in western Pakistan, on March 27, 2002.

The F-6 marked the beginning of Sino-Pak relationship that has grown in strength over the ensuing years. Pakistan has never forgotten that China offered assistance in its hour of need, when the rest of the world stood by US sanctions.

Immediately after the 1965 war, the US Government had suspended all military aid and sales to both Pakistan and India. While such an embargo would not have meant much to the Indian Air Force at the time, because of its adoption of equipment from the Soviet Union, the PAF faced the possibility of its large US inventory being grounded. The PAF Chief at the time, Air Chief Marshal Nur Khan realized that difficult times would lay ahead if he did not do something and quick. So he turned to China.

With a deal done for the twin-engined Shenyang F-6, the first 13 PAF pilots left for China during the first week of October 1965. Their mission was so secret that they were not allowed to wear uniform during the two months during the two months they spent learning to fly the aircraft. On December 20, 1965, a C-130 Hercules landed at Hotian, with the PAF Chief as well as several ferry pilots on board, who were tasked with flying the 12 F-6s back to Pakistan. The jets were flown back to Sargodha, where they equipped the re-activated 23 Squadron, under the command of Wg Cdr Mian Sadruddin.

Leading the three ship formations on the delivery flight back to Pakistan, alongside the OC, were Sqn Ldr Sharbat Ali Changezi and Sqn Ldr Asghar Ali Randhawa. The other F-6s, which included an air spare, were flown by, Flt Lt S K Kamal, Flt Lt Ansar, Flt Lt Akhtar H Khan, Flt Lt Siraj Chishti, Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, Flt Lt A H Malk, Flt Lt Zaheer, Flt Lt Rehmat, Flt Lt Khalid Iqbal and Flt Lt Khalid Latif. The ferry flight saw all 12 aircraft fly over the Himalayas, routing Hotian (China) - Gilgit - Risalpur - Sargodha.

This dangerous journey, often in terrible flying conditions, was undertaken many times over the 15 years that the F-6s were delivered from China. One pilot, Flt Lt Muhammad Pervaiz, lost his life on May 23 1980, during a ferry flight, when his aircraft, serial no 10112, developed engine trouble and unfortunately, after ejection, he could not survive in the cold barren wastelands of Xinjiang.

The first F-6 pilot, who flew with 23 Squadron, was declared operational during June 1966 and the first F-6 night mission took place the same month. During flying training in China, the Pakistani pilot would have to talk to his instructor in the back by relaying a message via the Air Traffic Control Tower. Hopefully nothing too urgent was required from your instructor!

Having grown up flying British and US aircraft, the PAF soon introduced modifications to the F-6, to suit their operational requirements and safety needs, a situation that still occurs today during development of a Chinese aircraft for the PAF. It is a testimony to the PAF that it was the only air force, outside China and Russia, which successfully operated the MiG-19/F-6.
While PAF pilots gained expertise flying this thrilling but difficult and demanding weapon system, PAF engineers and technicians carried out a number of indigenous modifications and improvements to make F-6 more effective and enhance its air superiority and ground attack roles. The major work centered around the provision of avionics, Martin Baker ejection seats, GAR-8 air-to-air missiles, 68 mm rockets, underbelly 'gondola' fuel tanks and a special auxiliary power unit to instantly start the small fighter's twin engines in order to reduce scramble times.

Initially, the PAF ordered 72 F-6s, however by 1981 the figure had reached 260. Initially, there were no two-seaters, so training proved difficult at times, until the FT-6s arrived. No. 14 Squadron, renowned for its raids on Kalaikunda during the 1965 war, was converted into an Operational Conversion Unit in April 1973, following the delivery of FT-6s.

Soon after the 1965 war, in which the PAF had fought an air force much bigger than itself, the F-6 was inducted as an air superiority fighter. Although difficult to fly, especially during its first decade of service, when the PAF lacked a dual seat trainer version, the pilots adapted and honed their combat skills on the F-6. By the time the 1971 war broke out, the PAF pilots were supremely confident in this agile and powerful fighter. During the 1971 war, the principal role of the F-6 was air defence.

Equipped with three powerful guns and two AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles, the F-6 had enough firepower to fight the most rugged adversary aircraft. It flew combat air patrols as well as going in the battle area. In over 650 air defence sorties, the PAF claim the F-6 shot down eight confirmed kills, including Hunters, Su-7s, MiG-21 and an own goal F-6.

The other role of the F-6 was providing close support to the Pakistan Army. I flew 184 sorties and destroyed numerous enemy bunkers, troop concentrations, vehicles and tanks. In particular, their support in the Shakargarh Sector was considered by the PAF to be most effective employment of air power during the Indo-Pak wars.

As the Air Force Chief during 1979-85, Air Marshal Anwar Shamim (Retd) told me in April, 2008: "During the 70s the Air Force usually battled with the Army over budget funds, so when we eventually opted to acquire further batches, I called my opposite Army number to tell him that we had just spent thousands of dollars on more F-6s, but we were buying them to provide CAS to Army troops on the ground. He was very pleased!"

Air Marshal Qazi Javed was the youngest pilot to score a kill while flying the F-6, his victim being the 'Top Gun' of Indian Air Force Western Air Command. The F-6 will be remembered as a battlefighter too. Strong and sturdy, hard-hitting and relatively easy to maintain , it performed admirably during air combat. It was not too surprising that the PAF considers it as one of their classic war birds, ranking alongside the likes of F-86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighter. It was only when the F-16 arrived that the F-6 met its match in a dog fight - which is no surprise, considering the generation gap.

There are also tales of how the F-6 managed to outfox F-4E Phantoms, F-15A Eagles and F-14 Tomcats during aerial exercises.

Mahmood ‏@KMahmood28 27 Jun
@warnesyworld @estmsm No big deal. I'm witness to PAF F-7PGs beating USN F-18s in air to air manoeuvres in 2004.
________________________________________________________________
Alan Warnes ‏@warnesyworld 28 Jun
@KMahmood28 when I was at samungli in 2002 I heard of an F-6 that beat a USN F-14 a year or so earlier in a 1v1. Now that is impressive!

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/#ixzz4V8yWcHcv

Alan Warnes is a repetitive Defence Journalist. Alan warnes has hinted the same incident in F-6 chapter of his book ' PAF 1998-2008: The new dawn'.


a pakistani f 7p in formation with an american f 14 over pakistan very rare picture

PAL u need to read what you post ..... this second link is a copy paste job of the first link!!!

and the second line -really??? - where is the source!!! NO SOURCE!!!

 

[noksss]

China wont sit idle i think they will provide Pakistan with their latest 7th generation fighter as a retaliation

 

[GuardianRED]

https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/
Alan Warnes ��@warnesyworld 24 Jun

Reliable sources tell me the Pak AF's new F-16 MLUs consistently beat Saudi Eagles and Typhoons during manoeuvres in Taif, RSA in May.

Alan Warnes ��@warnesyworld 25 Jun

According to my sources, PAF were asked to fly Red and Blue Air. The Saudi Typhoon CO was allegedly so hacked off he didn't go to debrief...

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/#ixzz4V8yH68JN
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
F-6 in PAF Service
By: Alan Warnes

In March 2002, when the Shenyang F-6 was retired, it heralded the end of an aircraft that was held dear by many PAF pilots. It was a fighter brought drama and laughter to the PAF ranks. The Chinese jet had served the PAF since 1966, flew operations with ten squadrons and was a war veteran.

Everyone has a tale or two to tell about the aircraft and the retirement ceremony was tinged with sadness, in seeing a stalwart go. The F-6 is the only aircraft to ever be involved in a collision with a train! A two seat FT-6 hit once, in August, 1993, while it was travelling along the railway line that cuts across the runway and taxiway at PAF Base Peshawar. Luckily the pilots of the two-seater survived but the aircraft was a write off.

In the absence of navigation aids (other than an erratic radio compass) getting lost was all in a day's work for the F-6 pilot! Fortunately, local-lost procedures always came in handy and the PAF was spared any diplomatic fuss because the F-6s always returned to their home bases.

On a more serious matter, the jet was the original 'widow-maker' until Martin Baker seats were introduced in 1975. Its biggest flaw was flicking into a spin at slow speeds, particularly for those uninitiated in the art of slow speed maneuvering. The lack of a dual seater trainer was another drawback, so not too surprisingly, first flights were hazardous. Students were known to take off with full military power (recommended), afterburner (usually for air shows) and even rated power - when scraping the arrester barrier was almost guaranteed! Standardization came a bit later with the advent of FT-6. One former F-6 pilot told the author: "The left throttle was manipulated by the little finger and the right one with the rest of the palm, for this is how the two throttles were shaped! And on take-off, if the little finger wasn't where it was supposed to be, you could find yourself in the woods somewhere to the right of the runway. Pilots flew at high speeds during base turn and final approach to stay clear of stalls, but ended up in the arrestor barrier one time too many. It was commonly said that the safety dictated an addition of 5 km per hour extra if you were married and an additional 5 km per hour for each kid."

However its biggest advantage was easy maintenance and a quick turn-around. It was rugged too, and could take a lot of punishment. It was against this backdrop that the aircraft played a major part in the careers of a large number of PAF fighter pilots - many of whom were in senior positions within the PAF when it was finally laid to rest at Samungali, near Quetta in western Pakistan, on March 27, 2002.

The F-6 marked the beginning of Sino-Pak relationship that has grown in strength over the ensuing years. Pakistan has never forgotten that China offered assistance in its hour of need, when the rest of the world stood by US sanctions.

Immediately after the 1965 war, the US Government had suspended all military aid and sales to both Pakistan and India. While such an embargo would not have meant much to the Indian Air Force at the time, because of its adoption of equipment from the Soviet Union, the PAF faced the possibility of its large US inventory being grounded. The PAF Chief at the time, Air Chief Marshal Nur Khan realized that difficult times would lay ahead if he did not do something and quick. So he turned to China.

With a deal done for the twin-engined Shenyang F-6, the first 13 PAF pilots left for China during the first week of October 1965. Their mission was so secret that they were not allowed to wear uniform during the two months during the two months they spent learning to fly the aircraft. On December 20, 1965, a C-130 Hercules landed at Hotian, with the PAF Chief as well as several ferry pilots on board, who were tasked with flying the 12 F-6s back to Pakistan. The jets were flown back to Sargodha, where they equipped the re-activated 23 Squadron, under the command of Wg Cdr Mian Sadruddin.

Leading the three ship formations on the delivery flight back to Pakistan, alongside the OC, were Sqn Ldr Sharbat Ali Changezi and Sqn Ldr Asghar Ali Randhawa. The other F-6s, which included an air spare, were flown by, Flt Lt S K Kamal, Flt Lt Ansar, Flt Lt Akhtar H Khan, Flt Lt Siraj Chishti, Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, Flt Lt A H Malk, Flt Lt Zaheer, Flt Lt Rehmat, Flt Lt Khalid Iqbal and Flt Lt Khalid Latif. The ferry flight saw all 12 aircraft fly over the Himalayas, routing Hotian (China) - Gilgit - Risalpur - Sargodha.

This dangerous journey, often in terrible flying conditions, was undertaken many times over the 15 years that the F-6s were delivered from China. One pilot, Flt Lt Muhammad Pervaiz, lost his life on May 23 1980, during a ferry flight, when his aircraft, serial no 10112, developed engine trouble and unfortunately, after ejection, he could not survive in the cold barren wastelands of Xinjiang.

The first F-6 pilot, who flew with 23 Squadron, was declared operational during June 1966 and the first F-6 night mission took place the same month. During flying training in China, the Pakistani pilot would have to talk to his instructor in the back by relaying a message via the Air Traffic Control Tower. Hopefully nothing too urgent was required from your instructor!

Having grown up flying British and US aircraft, the PAF soon introduced modifications to the F-6, to suit their operational requirements and safety needs, a situation that still occurs today during development of a Chinese aircraft for the PAF. It is a testimony to the PAF that it was the only air force, outside China and Russia, which successfully operated the MiG-19/F-6.
While PAF pilots gained expertise flying this thrilling but difficult and demanding weapon system, PAF engineers and technicians carried out a number of indigenous modifications and improvements to make F-6 more effective and enhance its air superiority and ground attack roles. The major work centered around the provision of avionics, Martin Baker ejection seats, GAR-8 air-to-air missiles, 68 mm rockets, underbelly 'gondola' fuel tanks and a special auxiliary power unit to instantly start the small fighter's twin engines in order to reduce scramble times.

Initially, the PAF ordered 72 F-6s, however by 1981 the figure had reached 260. Initially, there were no two-seaters, so training proved difficult at times, until the FT-6s arrived. No. 14 Squadron, renowned for its raids on Kalaikunda during the 1965 war, was converted into an Operational Conversion Unit in April 1973, following the delivery of FT-6s.

Soon after the 1965 war, in which the PAF had fought an air force much bigger than itself, the F-6 was inducted as an air superiority fighter. Although difficult to fly, especially during its first decade of service, when the PAF lacked a dual seat trainer version, the pilots adapted and honed their combat skills on the F-6. By the time the 1971 war broke out, the PAF pilots were supremely confident in this agile and powerful fighter. During the 1971 war, the principal role of the F-6 was air defence.

Equipped with three powerful guns and two AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles, the F-6 had enough firepower to fight the most rugged adversary aircraft. It flew combat air patrols as well as going in the battle area. In over 650 air defence sorties, the PAF claim the F-6 shot down eight confirmed kills, including Hunters, Su-7s, MiG-21 and an own goal F-6.

The other role of the F-6 was providing close support to the Pakistan Army. I flew 184 sorties and destroyed numerous enemy bunkers, troop concentrations, vehicles and tanks. In particular, their support in the Shakargarh Sector was considered by the PAF to be most effective employment of air power during the Indo-Pak wars.

As the Air Force Chief during 1979-85, Air Marshal Anwar Shamim (Retd) told me in April, 2008: "During the 70s the Air Force usually battled with the Army over budget funds, so when we eventually opted to acquire further batches, I called my opposite Army number to tell him that we had just spent thousands of dollars on more F-6s, but we were buying them to provide CAS to Army troops on the ground. He was very pleased!"

Air Marshal Qazi Javed was the youngest pilot to score a kill while flying the F-6, his victim being the 'Top Gun' of Indian Air Force Western Air Command. The F-6 will be remembered as a battlefighter too. Strong and sturdy, hard-hitting and relatively easy to maintain , it performed admirably during air combat. It was not too surprising that the PAF considers it as one of their classic war birds, ranking alongside the likes of F-86 Sabre and F-104 Starfighter. It was only when the F-16 arrived that the F-6 met its match in a dog fight - which is no surprise, considering the generation gap.

There are also tales of how the F-6 managed to outfox F-4E Phantoms, F-15A Eagles and F-14 Tomcats during aerial exercises.

Mahmood ‏@KMahmood28 27 Jun
@warnesyworld @estmsm No big deal. I'm witness to PAF F-7PGs beating USN F-18s in air to air manoeuvres in 2004.
________________________________________________________________
Alan Warnes ‏@warnesyworld 28 Jun
@KMahmood28 when I was at samungli in 2002 I heard of an F-6 that beat a USN F-14 a year or so earlier in a 1v1. Now that is impressive!

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/paf-f-6-beat-f-14-tomcat.266193/#ixzz4V8yWcHcv

Alan Warnes is a repetitive Defence Journalist. Alan warnes has hinted the same incident in F-6 chapter of his book ' PAF 1998-2008: The new dawn'.


a pakistani f 7p in formation with an american f 14 over pakistan very rare picture

Where to begin

First you mention vs USAF F15, then vs RAF typhoon Now its vs Saudi F15 /Typhoons then the LOoooong post abt Alan warnes about F6 where only a ONE line and hints abt the some exercise vs F14s and then Posting a F7 and F14 and finally the JF17 !!!???

talk about changing the goal post every single time! and the source - hearsay from some pilot/officer ??!!!

Pal. im not trying to downplay anything, if you believe, who am i?

Good Day!

 

[Hamza913]

Well Rafales are overkill for PAF....Mig-29s, few MKIs and Tejas will be enough there....

Your poorly trained pilots need all the help they can get, as their high crash rate and past experiences have shown.

 

[egodoc222]

The reality is, you got ripped off.

You guys love to piggyback something that happened 40 years, I have said it before, I'll say it again (although I'm sure idiots like you won't listen). Those troops were outnumbered 13:1 and running out of supplies, there is no way they could have survived. Surrender was logical.

Also, that doesn't prove the IAF was powerful at all. In fact, it doesn't say a single thing about the IAF.

Right word is they we're abandoned by your military.....!
As far the troop ratio is concerned we always had the numerical superiority then and now....that didn't stop you from starting 3 wars.....why cry about it when you lose then?
Only logical move would have been not to start a war in first place

 

[ravi gupta]

It's not hatred, it's fact. The IAF has the highest crash rate in the world among Air Forces.

You can make as many excuses as you want, India got ripped off.





You just bought the damn things where as we know our F-16's like the back of our hands. Secondly, your Air Force is poorly trained and has displayed this with it's highest crash rate among Air Forces and less than stellar performance in conflicts. So no, your Rafales won't wipe the floor with our F-16's.

Our Air Force is more than capable of defending itself from the likes of a poorly trained Air Force like the IAF.

Whatever helps you sleep better man.

 

[Chanakyaa]

Your poorly trained pilots need all the help they can get, as their high crash rate and past experiences have shown.

I guess then PAF must relax, as in all probability before PAF even fires the first shot, IAF pilots will crash all their Mirages, MKIs , UBs and Rafales ! ( I missed the Navy's 40 odd Ks )

There is however one point to consider.

PAF dont have any Idea of an MKI ( Su 27 / 30 <> MKI , just like there is a huge difference between Block 30 and Block 60 , Hint : Avionics ) , Wjile India ( the poorly trained IAF ) have the luxury to train regularly with the PERMANENTLY stationed Singaporean Latest Blk 52s.

 

[AMCA]

Actually it is difficult to take out SU than Rafale but any how it all matters on who is sitting inside the jet and that is what makes a big difference, a key area where India lacks a lot.

You may hope and pray for that. That's probably the best you could do with the size of budget and economy you got.

Well, with the limited capability that you got, taking out a Mig might require a tough fight too, but on a general perspective, how do you think Su-30 is difficult to engage than a Rafale?

 

[The_Sidewinder]

Yesterday visited chabua town and watched many mki sorties and Il76 mki and An32 too. Hope hashimara will soon get rafale and I get to see it.

You should have called me. I live nearby.
And yes, watching the take off of Sukhois is an heavenly experience.

 

[BHarwana]

You may hope and pray for that. That's probably the best you could do with the size of budget and economy you got.

Well, with the limited capability that you got, taking out a Mig might require a tough fight too, but on a general perspective, how do you think Su-30 is difficult to engage than a Rafale?

Dear friend wars are not just won by budget but by strategy and courage. You seem to forget one thing, lets put the nukes aside of once and talk about conventional warfare, Pakistan missile program is more advanced than India, the missile accuracy is better more speedy and effective and the more India spends on Air force it gives better advantage to Pakistan. USA and Russia need Airforce because they are so way apart and reach between them is difficult. In case of India and Pakistan we are neighbors Pakistan has no need of SU or Raffy or any twin engine for attacking India. Pakistan has JF17 for the ground attack job. We will sam you out of the sky F 16s are enough for front line defence and with our missile program more advance than your only thing left to do is to rain hell on Delhi with missiles, cruise missiles and artelry on you front line. With those Raffys India is just catching up on Pakistan in the end it will an soldier to soldier battle for india and Pakistan always remember that and that is the place where Indian investment is still minimum and it is a big border between us so there is the situation.

 

[GuardianRED]

Dear friend wars are not just won by budget but by strategy and courage. You seem to forget one thing, lets put the nukes aside of once and talk about conventional warfare, Pakistan missile program is more advanced than India, the missile accuracy is better more speedy and effective and the more India spends on Air force it gives better advantage to Pakistan. USA and Russia need Airforce because they are so way apart and reach between them is difficult. In case of India and Pakistan we are neighbors Pakistan has no need of SU or Raffy or any twin engine for attacking India. Pakistan has JF17 for the ground attack job. We will sam you out of the sky F 16s are enough for front line defence and with our missile program more advance than your only thing left to do is to rain hell on Delhi with missiles, cruise missiles and artelry on you front line. With those Raffys India is just catching up on Pakistan in the end it will an soldier to soldier battle for india and Pakistan always remember that and that is the place where Indian investment is still minimum and it is a big border between us so there is the situation.

there is more to warfare than a fan boy answer post!

 

[Hamza913]

PAF dont have any Idea of an MKI ( Su 27 / 30 <> MKI , just like there is a huge difference between Block 30 and Block 60 , Hint : Avionics ) , Wjile India ( the poorly trained IAF ) have the luxury to train regularly with the PERMANENTLY stationed Singaporean Latest Blk 52s.

PAF has trained with PLAAF who operate Flankers, so yes we have a good idea. Besides, it doesn't change a thing that your pilots are poorly trained.

Whatever helps you sleep better man.

The truth is what helps me sleep better.

Right word is they we're abandoned by your military.....!
As far the troop ratio is concerned we always had the numerical superiority then and now....that didn't stop you from starting 3 wars.....why cry about it when you lose then?
Only logical move would have been not to start a war in first place

Thw only war we lost was in 1971, and India started that one.

 

[BHarwana]

there is more to warfare than a fan boy answer post!

When they run out of an argument they will go for a poetic statement of criticism LOL

 

[ranadd]

Pakistan, Please win one war or engagement with India. Then comment all you want.

Besides, it doesn't change a thing that your pilots are poorly trained.
.

Yes. IAF is poorly trained.

I would say not trained at all. I am sure that's what you meant to say.