India to Acquire Fresh 40 Su-30MKIs

[blain2]

The numerical superiority would stay the same whereas the technological superiority would increase even more!

Why do you say that? I think I was discussing the same aspect. In my opinion, the technological gap reduces between the two airforces.

 

[EagleEyes]

Webby they are trying to reduce the gap, with this agreement India is making sure nothing changes.

For the 40 odd F-16s you are getting we are buying 40 MKI outright.
For the 50 off upgraded F-16s we are upgrading our entire Mig 29 squadrons ( 57 nos) and also the 49 mirage 2000s.
And for the 200 Jf -17 we have the 196 MRCA deal.

Good for you.

 

[EagleEyes]

Why do you say that? I think I was discussing the same aspect. In my opinion, the technological gap reduces between the two airforces.

I think it will further reduce when we will get the J-10s, the review by the Pakistani pilot, Kaiser Tufail, makes it seems that it meets the requirements of Pakistan Air Force with the French avionics. Last i heard that Pakistan is interested in 36 aircrafts but now the number can be way up to 50 aircrafts. Pakistan Air Force is becoming a modern force for the future and that is what seems to be all planned with the Navy to cover up the strategic areas in the south.

 

[blain2]

I think it will further reduce when we will get the J-10s, the review by the Pakistani pilot, Kaiser Tufail, makes it seems that it meets the requirements of Pakistan Air Force with the French avionics. Last i heard that Pakistan is interested in 36 aircrafts but now the number can be way up to 50 aircrafts. Pakistan Air Force is becoming a modern force for the future and that is what seems to be all planned with the Navy to cover up the strategic areas in the south.

Where is the review of J-10 by Air Cdre Kaiser Tufail? Is it posted anywhere here?

Thanks

 

[EagleEyes]

I saw him in the picture with the Chinese pilot.

http://www.anyboard.net/gov/mil/anyboard/uploads/J-10-pak--8-1168341100.jpg

Review is here.

https://defence.pk/forums/showpost.php?p=42331&postcount=8

 

[PakSniper]

I think it will further reduce when we will get the J-10s, the review by the Pakistani pilot, Kaiser Tufail, makes it seems that it meets the requirements of Pakistan Air Force with the French avionics. Last i heard that Pakistan is interested in 36 aircrafts but now the number can be way up to 50 aircrafts. Pakistan Air Force is becoming a modern force for the future and that is what seems to be all planned with the Navy to cover up the strategic areas in the south.

Your right their was a report out back that I read that 50 are being negotiated right now with China, up from 36 the report was about a month old somewhere on PDF from a Chinese source, I would have to say that J-10 according to the translation site you provided the pilot said the range is almost near that of the F-16 it is a promising fight, and with AWACS and BVR, etc it can take Su-30 head on but a little more avionic and radar it can take on Su-30MKI soon. JF-17 will deal with the rest. Pakistan is looking towards Britian for a radar aswell now S-7 is still the option but lets' see what brits decide., also from this article India is really sad still trying to tell Russia not to provide engines they should be worried about tech not engines, lol, soon the chinese version will be ready for us and we don't need Russia anymore.

 

[Contrarian]

Why do you say that? I think I was discussing the same aspect. In my opinion, the technological gap reduces between the two airforces.

See mate, start comparing. Till now PAF ALWAYS had the technological edge, becase US never sold India stuff, we always had Russian stuff, some of it was good, but others was bad.

Think about this For the 95 F-16 blk 52's total, there's an outright 230 Su-30MKI.

For the 200 JF-17's there's going to be the MRCA, which is going to be BETTER than even the Su-30MKI. And JF-17 is no match for Su-30, you know that, JF-17 is a medium tech plane, Su-30 is heavy plane, different purposes.

Add to that the MiG 29 MLu'd AND 50 Mirage 2005 with many elements from Rafale. Hell the Mirage upgrade cost wayy more than buying Su-30MKI's OUTRIGHT!!

Now, as per the plan, the MRCA's will have AESA. And the Su-30MKI has a planned upgrade to AESA in its MLU. Plus, not all the MKi's are same, there's MkI, II and III and greater i believe. So all of them will be converted to the best.

Add the fact that India is going to go with the Russia's 5th gen fighter. whereas J-XX is still on paper, and would not be as good as the PAK FA and u know it.

No point talking about old planes like MiG 27's, Jags (even though both have been upgraded considerably now) and MiG 21's or those in PAF inventory.

Now compare the above with the difference's PAF has always had, PAF always had tech to counter the numbers in IAF. But now things are different. We buy what we deem is best, no choice limitations like earlier. Like this time im fairly confident that we'r going to buy F/A-18E/F. Do you know that this plane was based on stealth. Its RCS is the same as that of Rafale.

 

[Bull]

Bull,
The difference here is that PAF is going up in terms of technology and there is nothing that IAF can do about that aspect.

What technology are you speaking about?

So now instead of having 32 or so F-16 blk 15s, IAF has to contend with about 96 or so F-16s with blk 50/52 avionics, ECM and weapons package which is a drastic infusion of high tech.

India is upgrading the 56 Mirage Vajra fighters to the Mirage 2000V5 Mk2 standard, the 57 Mig 29 are being upgraded to the Mig29SMT standard.

Does that take care of the upgradation of 32 or so F-16s to Blk 53 status.

Secondly, we get rid of all of our A-5s, F-7s etc., as the JF-17s come on line and there too, the technology boost is undeniable.

Jf-17s...how many are you getting 200? Well India would also be getting 196 under the MRCA deal which could be any of the following Mig29OVT/F-18/Grippen/Rafale/F-16.

So now that does take care of the JF -17.

And on top of all these we are inducting 150+40 MKIs, 40 MKIs are to outright purchase from Russia.

And we also would be flying the Mig 21 Bisons, Jaguars and the Hariers for another 10-15 years.

So definitly we will have the tech as well as the numerical advantage.

 

[PakSniper]

Fact that India is going to go with the Russia's 5th gen fighter. whereas J-XX is still on paper, and would not be as good as the PAK FA and u know it.

Your PAK FA is still on paper aswell.

Also., about JF-17 It is medium tech, but know that pakistan is looking at western avionics now since the embargo is lifted, and don't forget the J-10 which beat the SU-27, and J-10 still have potential to grow out to be a better plane,.. with the F-16s and the upgrades and the planes mentioned above with AWACS should be a formidable airforce,. and now were waiting to see what High-tech SAM pakistan will be getting soon (with ToT).

 

[Contrarian]

Your PAK FA is still on paper aswell.

DUDE!! If you think the PAK-FA/T-50 is still on paper, then u need a reality check. They expect a full flying machine for testing by the next year. The Russians are going head over heels to try and get India to partner it, but India wanted to go with the MiG 5th gen Light fighter, cuz the T-50 had its designs etc frozen and was in a very advanced phase, so India could not make its requirements fit in it. So they wanted MiG.

Anyways, when Russian Def Min and Putin come here in a week or so, things would be clearer.

Also., about JF-17 It is medium tech, but know that pakistan is looking at western avionics now since the embargo is lifted,

It isnt lifted on China. And JF-17 is going for serial production, only in its MLU's or some planned upgrades can new things be put in it. As of now, nothing else can be put in it. Its Chinese with a few french components i believe.

and don't forget the J-10 which beat the SU-27, and J-10 still have potential to grow out to be a better plane,..

Is there are confirmation that the J-10 beat the Su-27?? The only thing that was said is that the J-10 beat a 3rd gen plane. Why do you assume it was the Su-27? China has other planes in the same gen too.

Yeah, the J-10 does have the potential to grow. But we'r not counting potential right now mate.

with the F-16s and the upgrades and the planes mentioned above with AWACS should be a formidable airforce,.

India too would have AWACS. I mentioned all the upgrades in my previous post.

and now were waiting to see what High-tech SAM pakistan will be getting soon (with ToT).

Yeah, lets wait to see which SAM Pakistan gets. As of now you know the SAMs that India has.

 

[vnomad]

Your PAK FA is still on paper aswell.

No its not. Its far from production but certainly not a paper project. The first prototype is expected to be airborne this year. Even if that doesn't happen we know that its not on paper.

Its also unfair to say Jxx is still on paper. Its progress is just unknown.

 

[joey]

blain the post you made on previous page about tech gap, i an cross it everyway even right now you dont have any idea what kind of tech is being developed with LCA and will go to LCA.

We are already moving from FBW to FBO, heard about solid state management system, Levcons...etc etc.

PAF needs J10 with good radar.

 

[blain2]

See mate, start comparing. Till now PAF ALWAYS had the technological edge, becase US never sold India stuff, we always had Russian stuff, some of it was good, but others was bad.

Think about this For the 95 F-16 blk 52's total, there's an outright 230 Su-30MKI.

For the 200 JF-17's there's going to be the MRCA, which is going to be BETTER than even the Su-30MKI. And JF-17 is no match for Su-30, you know that, JF-17 is a medium tech plane, Su-30 is heavy plane, different purposes.

Add to that the MiG 29 MLu'd AND 50 Mirage 2005 with many elements from Rafale. Hell the Mirage upgrade cost wayy more than buying Su-30MKI's OUTRIGHT!!

Now, as per the plan, the MRCA's will have AESA. And the Su-30MKI has a planned upgrade to AESA in its MLU. Plus, not all the MKi's are same, there's MkI, II and III and greater i believe. So all of them will be converted to the best.

Add the fact that India is going to go with the Russia's 5th gen fighter. whereas J-XX is still on paper, and would not be as good as the PAK FA and u know it.

No point talking about old planes like MiG 27's, Jags (even though both have been upgraded considerably now) and MiG 21's or those in PAF inventory.

Now compare the above with the difference's PAF has always had, PAF always had tech to counter the numbers in IAF. But now things are different. We buy what we deem is best, no choice limitations like earlier. Like this time im fairly confident that we'r going to buy F/A-18E/F. Do you know that this plane was based on stealth. Its RCS is the same as that of Rafale.

So the problem that I see with typical counters like this is that people start comparing aircraft for an aircraft. Now if I have better SA available to me via platforms (like Erieye) that far exceed the performance of any fighter aircraft based radar like AESA etc., then the whole point of debating 1-for-1 is moot.

What matters more is what kind of weapons the aircraft are carying and even more importantly how these aircraft are employed. A better employment or equally good employment of JF-17s against ingressing MKIs means that JF-17s are more than capable of countering the threat.

The idea behind having an amazing Air-Intercept (AI) radar like AESA etc. is extremely helpful for countries that do not have AEW assets with extended OTH ranges. This allows for longer detection against an adversary that has a limited range of radars and no significant AEW capability. Pakistan would not be at a disadvantage with Erieyes that far exceed the capability of an AESA based AI radar like the one IAF would get on its aircraft. Also AESA is not out of the reach of PAF either. While it make look like its difficult to nail down one for now, there are many AESA radars in development that would be available to PAF in the future if it was interested in it.

In terms of weapons for the assets in the air, there is nothing available to the IAF that drastically outclasses the PAF. ECM, BVR, WVRAAMs, AEW, PGMs, DL etc. are all arenas where PAF would be at Parity with the IAF even after you induct 240 MKIs and 190 MRCAs. What hurts an AirForce is an utter lack of a significant capability like BVRAAM (If I dont have it, I can't engage you at standoff ranges), AEW capability (If I do not see you farther out, I can't plan my counter tactics and employment of weapons at their optimum), EW (If I do not have electronic warfare capability, I cannot blind you and conduct OAO against you). However in the case of PAF's force modernization, all of these aspects are being catered to.

For IAF, the problem becomes greater because now PAF has increased the deterrance by quite a few notches...its harder to get through Pakistani defences and the weapon systems arrayed against the IAF are also more accurate (so as you can probably see, PAF does not need to match a purchase one for one).

In reality we need to look at both Airforces as systems and not look at their specific components and assume that since certain components are better on one side, the other side is outclassed. When an airforce is used as a combat system on the whole, then you see the success....a war is not won on the basis of one aircraft type, its the whole AF which plays a part. (in the case of PAF, winning a war is basically denying IAF air superiority over Pakistan or specific theaters which require the support of PAF...this task is much easily achieved with the force modernization being undertaken now...for IAF, the mission to push through Pakistani defences gets harder).

Based on the systematic upgradation of PAF, there is no doubt in my mind that PAF would not be outclassed in any specific spheres aside from the quantitative one.

 

[blain2]

blain the post you made on previous page about tech gap, i an cross it everyway even right now you dont have any idea what kind of tech is being developed with LCA and will go to LCA.

We are already moving from FBW to FBO, heard about solid state management system, Levcons...etc etc.

PAF needs J10 with good radar.

Yes I am sure I have no idea. When the LCA becomes fully operational and is employed against the PAF then we will discuss it...until then lets table it and talk about what is coming down the pike in the next 5 years or so.

I do not want to turn this into I know more than you sort of a thread so cross my post and I will respond and then we will see how the thread pans out.

 

[blain2]

What technology are you speaking about?


India is upgrading the 56 Mirage Vajra fighters to the Mirage 2000V5 Mk2 standard, the 57 Mig 29 are being upgraded to the Mig29SMT standard.

Does that take care of the upgradation of 32 or so F-16s to Blk 53 status.



Jf-17s...how many are you getting 200? Well India would also be getting 196 under the MRCA deal which could be any of the following Mig29OVT/F-18/Grippen/Rafale/F-16.

So now that does take care of the JF -17.

And on top of all these we are inducting 150+40 MKIs, 40 MKIs are to outright purchase from Russia.

And we also would be flying the Mig 21 Bisons, Jaguars and the Hariers for another 10-15 years.

So definitly we will have the tech as well as the numerical advantage.

read my post above. Also Pakistan would not have 32 or so F-16s of blk 52 standard...in terms of avionics, it would have 96 airframes with this capability.

Comparing platform to platform is a waste....as long as the aircraft have capabilities that are generally in the same class, what matters more is the weapons, employment and tactics.