India starts working on its own Seaplane

[INDIAPOSITIVE]

As a deal to acquire amphibious plane US-2 from Japan seems to have stuck in a whirlpool, India has quietly started working to build its own Seaplane.

Government-owned HAL has taken a lead to design and develop the amphibian aircraft around its multi-role Do-228 aircraft which is considered the backbone of the Macy’s transport fleet.

The HAL has floated an RFI (Request For Information) seeking partnership for design and development of such an aircraft.

“Under Make in India initiative, HAL intends to design and develop a Seaplane version of HAL built Do-228 aircraft. Towards this, HAL-TAD Kanpur invites information, from reputed design agencies or manufacturers only, for consultancy or to partner in design and development of an HAL built Do-228 aircraft to a Seaplane version,” the RFI said.

“The HAL started working on the project in October 2015 ? a year after India and Japan announced negotiations on the US-2 ? when HAL quietly called the attention of global airframers and design houses,” defence news blog Livefist quoted sources in the company as saying.

Three aeronautical engineers from HAL’s Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) in Bengaluru presented a paper at the Aero India Seminar month titled ‘Conceptual Design of Amphibious Aircraft’.

The paper, offered what HAL described as ‘An optimized design approach addressing key features like hydrostatic stability, dynamic stability, wave handling, and water performance is conceptualised with due care for aerodynamic characteristics and overall performance figures, the report said.

A fleet of over 100 Do-228 aircraft currently fly with the Indian Navy, Indian Air Force and Indian Coast Guard, with more on order. HAL is also set to unveil a civilian version of the aircraft later this year.

The disclosure about the project comes at time when the deal for US-2 amphibians is no where near to conclusion due to several issues, including the cost of the aircraft.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India-starts-working-on-its-own-Seaplane-250650

 

[Blue Marlin]

i honestly dont know what to say.
first they choose to go for the u2 but want to build it india, but they cant as they have not ordered enough. so they choose to develop a sea plane based of a land based plane (do-228) to replace the u2, but its at a fraction of the size of the u2?

i think the do-228 line is coming to an end and they want to keep it open.

honestly stop trying to reinvent the wheel here.

if the u2 is too big of a plane and the japanese are too weird awkward to sell it.........

just go for the dh-6 sea plane.........

 

[Abingdonboy]

i honestly dont know what to say.
first they choose to go for the u2 but want to build it india, but they cant as they have not ordered enough. so they choose to develop a sea plane based of a land based plane (do-228) to replace the u2, but its at a fraction of the size of the u2?

i think the do-228 line is coming to an end and they want to keep it open.

honestly stop trying to reinvent the wheel here.

if the u2 is too big of a plane and the japanese are too weird awkward to sell it.....

The US-2 deal has NOTHING to do with this sea plane from HAL, it is their own seperate project. The media is just needlessly conflating the issue.


The US-2 deal is going to happen at some point but for now the IN is prioritising their spending on more important near term objectives (subs, ASW assets, helos, frigates, missile vessels etc etc). The US-2 that will be unarmed and has the greatest utility only in the long range SAR role is not an urgent requirement for the IN and thus they are going slow.

 

[Blue Marlin]

The US-2 deal has NOTHING to do with this sea plane from HAL, it is their own seperate project. The media is just needlessly conflating the issue.


The US-2 deal is going to happen at some point but for now the IN is prioritising their spending on more important near term objectives (subs, ASW assets, helos, frigates, missile vessels etc etc). The US-2 that will be unarmed and has the greatest utility only in the long range SAR role is not an urgent requirement for the IN and thus they are going slow.

well i find india's procurement methods extremely slow.

india already has subs (scorpene) being built

p75i not insight.....
same applies to the talwar frigates with 3 more being delivered, minus the engines.

p8 asw/mpa.

but choppers and missile vessels.......... not really. i have not heard a thing on the s70.

and now the u2..................

sorry pal..... i dont buy it not one bit and if they want to convert the do-228 into an amphibious plane, then god help india. not to sound rude but they remind me of certain arab countries.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Do-228 and U2 are different class. I doubt India will wait for HAL to complete design and manufacture.

 

[Abingdonboy]

well i find india's procurement methods extremely slow.

Historically yes and this is being actively worked on. In th enext 3-5 years you will see a dramatic uptake in this regard.

p75i not insight.....

Under the P-75 (Scorpenes) the IN is looking at getting another 3-6, the P-75(I) is being put on the back foot as a result and the IN are looking looking at SSNs now, there isn't a huge demand for SSKs by them anymore.

p8 asw/mpa.

Yup, 4 more have just been ordered and the IN will keep ordering batches for the next decade or so. Total fleet size will be >30+

but choppers and missile vessels.......... not really. i have not heard a thing on the s70.

S70B deal is an outlier and doesn't seem to be going anywhere but it is for just 16 units, none of which will be made in India. The IN is looking elsewhere to meet their 120+ NMRH requirement (to be made in India).

As for missile vessels,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Missile_Vessels
http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story.asp?mid=44&id=6




On top of that the IN has sanctioned 7 P-17A frigates, each of which will cost around $1BN USD:

sorry pal..... i dont buy it not one bit and if they want to convert the do-228 into an amphibious plane, then god help india. not to sound rude but they remind me of certain arab countries.

Not sure what you mean by that, all in all India is still one of the most powerful nations on earth and its military is in another league when compared to Arab nations.



The IN has a fully thought out 15 year Maritime Capability Perspective Plan and the US-2s form a tiny and pretty insignifcant part of it, there are other priorities for now. There are much more pressing projects to get off the ground before the US-2 is procured.

 

[anniyan]

As a deal to acquire amphibious plane US-2 from Japan seems to have stuck in a whirlpool, India has quietly started working to build its own Seaplane.

Government-owned HAL has taken a lead to design and develop the amphibian aircraft around its multi-role Do-228 aircraft which is considered the backbone of the Macy’s transport fleet.

The HAL has floated an RFI (Request For Information) seeking partnership for design and development of such an aircraft.

“Under Make in India initiative, HAL intends to design and develop a Seaplane version of HAL built Do-228 aircraft. Towards this, HAL-TAD Kanpur invites information, from reputed design agencies or manufacturers only, for consultancy or to partner in design and development of an HAL built Do-228 aircraft to a Seaplane version,” the RFI said.

“The HAL started working on the project in October 2015 ? a year after India and Japan announced negotiations on the US-2 ? when HAL quietly called the attention of global airframers and design houses,” defence news blog Livefist quoted sources in the company as saying.

Three aeronautical engineers from HAL’s Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) in Bengaluru presented a paper at the Aero India Seminar month titled ‘Conceptual Design of Amphibious Aircraft’.

The paper, offered what HAL described as ‘An optimized design approach addressing key features like hydrostatic stability, dynamic stability, wave handling, and water performance is conceptualised with due care for aerodynamic characteristics and overall performance figures, the report said.

A fleet of over 100 Do-228 aircraft currently fly with the Indian Navy, Indian Air Force and Indian Coast Guard, with more on order. HAL is also set to unveil a civilian version of the aircraft later this year.

The disclosure about the project comes at time when the deal for US-2 amphibians is no where near to conclusion due to several issues, including the cost of the aircraft.

http://www.defencenews.in/article/India-starts-working-on-its-own-Seaplane-250650

Hal's tender for Seaplane

http://www.hal-india.com/Common/Uploads/TenderDoc/3386_TenderPDF1_RFI.pdf

 

[Blue Marlin]

Historically yes and this is being actively worked on. In th enext 3-5 years you will see a dramatic uptake in this regard.

i dont buy it, theres been no change what so ever and in 3-5 years time coincides with 2019 which is indias elections take place and god knows what will happen between then.

Under the P-75 (Scorpenes) the IN is looking at getting another 3-6, the P-75(I) is being put on the back foot as a result and the IN are looking looking at SSNs now, there isn't a huge demand for SSKs by them anymore.

theres been no traction the the ssn only the ssbn. the p75-scorpene is gaining traction and has began to achieve its 9 month turnarounds. the p75i is nothing but mearly and idea on a piece of paper.

Yup, 4 more have just been ordered and the IN will keep ordering batches for the next decade or so. Total fleet size will be >30+

indeed 8 being ordered at first and later ordered 4 (down from 12).

S70B deal is an outlier and doesn't seem to be going anywhere but it is for just 16 units, none of which will be made in India. The IN is looking elsewhere to meet their 120+ NMRH requirement (to be made in India).

As for missile vessels,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Generation_Missile_Vessels
http://www.spsnavalforces.com/story.asp?mid=44&id=6

so thats bye bye s70 then eh.......... no one will allow india to build just 12 choppers. you might as well try convert the ka226t as an asw chopper.
also i never bothered mentioning the ngmv as theres no update on it.

On top of that the IN has sanctioned 7 P-17A frigates, each of which will cost around $1BN USD:

yes theres the p17 its was supposed to begin construction by mid feb the latest it pperes thats not the case.
what type of radar/s does it have?

Not sure what you mean by that, all in all India is still one of the most powerful nations on earth and its military is in another league when compared to Arab nations.



The IN has a fully thought out 15 year Maritime Capability Perspective Plan and the US-2s form a tiny and pretty insignifcant part of it, there are other priorities for now. There are much more pressing projects to get off the ground before the US-2 is procured.

power is a such a vague word. and no i dont mean by power. but i mean by planing and sense. right now im a bit busy so i shall go into more detail later.

i would have imagined the u2's being more the andoman and nicobar islands

 

[Abingdonboy]

i dont buy it, theres been no change what so ever and in 3-5 years time coincides with 2019 which is indias elections take place and god knows what will happen between then.

the steps have already been taken but they won't show the benefits for a while, it is not a quick fix. Much of what this govt is dealing with is still the mess left by the last one, their agenda is still yet to be fully implemented.

theres been no traction the the ssn only the ssbn.

SSN has been sanctioned but that is all we will know until it they are in the water, the IN/GoI/MoD does not give updates on strategic projects.

the p75i is nothing but mearly and idea on a piece of paper.

And it will remain so for the reasons I have outlined (there is no real need for them).

indeed 8 being ordered at first and later ordered 4 (down from 12).

Down from 12? No, the orginal deal was for 8 (all delivered now) with an option for 4 additional units, this has now been fully exercised. Post 2019 the IN will be placing more orders and will continue to do so until their final requirements are met (>30+), there is no rush on that front, the production line will keep humming along for a decade yet.

so thats bye bye s70 then eh.......... no one will allow india to build just 12 choppers.

The orginal S-70B deal had no make in India componant and this is perhaps why the IN/GoI are not showing it much love, it may be ditched in favour of a larger made in India deal, it may not.

yes theres the p17 its was supposed to begin construction by mid feb the latest it pperes thats not the case.

It will begin sometime in the first half of 2017.

what type of radar/s does it have?

EL/M-2248 MF STAR and an, as of yet undisclosed, new generation VSR (maybe SMART-L).

 

[Blue Marlin]

the steps have already been taken but they won't show the benefits for a while, it is not a quick fix. Much of what this govt is dealing with is still the mess left by the last one, their agenda is still yet to be fully implemented.

well yes they clearing up mess but i would have expected a overhaul in india's procurement process but that does not seem to be the case. just compare india to its western neighour for speed of induction.

SSN has been sanctioned but that is all we will know until it they are in the water, the IN/GoI/MoD does not give updates on strategic projects.

im sceptical on it but who knows right?

Down from 12? No, the orginal deal was for 8 (all delivered now) with an option for 4 additional units, this has now been fully exercised. Post 2019 the IN will be placing more orders and will continue to do so until their final requirements are met (>30+), there is no rush on that front, the production line will keep humming along for a decade yet.

they ordered 8 at first but then was supposed to order 12 more but the order was reduced to 4. they p8 line has a long way to go. they are still making p8 for the usa and now for norway and us lot too.

The orginal S-70B deal had no make in India componant and this is perhaps why the IN/GoI are not showing it much love, it may be ditched in favour of a larger made in India deal, it may not.

i dont it happening you either compromise or find a product india builds and convert it for asw/sar. ka226t anyone???

It will begin sometime in the first half of 2017.

so its already delayed

EL/M-2248 MF STAR and an, as of yet undisclosed, new generation VSR (maybe SMART-L).

so the same mid range radar as moder indian ships but what im interested in is the long range radar. lets see.......

 

[Abingdonboy]

well yes they clearing up mess but i would have expected a overhaul in india's procurement process but that does not seem to be the case.

If you follow these matters you will see that this GoI has made a SERIOUS dent in the long list of backlogged deals they inherited (>90% are signed now), they haven't even really started looking at their own procurement plans- when they do things will get very interesting.

As for the process as a whole, numerous steps have been taken (increased discretion powers to local commanders, service cheifs, the Def Min and Fin Min as well as a new DPP). Again, it will be a while to see the real benefits of such steps.

just compare india to its western neighour for speed of induction.

Utterly silly to compare the two nations:

1) There is ZERO accountability in the Pakistani system, the Military runs the show- they get what they want. In India there are countless checks and balances for all defence deals- it will take a lot longer as a result. The military has no powers to procure equipment.
2) Pakistan's deals are of relatively low value and little complexity, there is no requirement for local production or high level offsets.

im sceptical on it but who knows right?

they ordered 8 at first but then was supposed to order 12 more but the order was reduced to 4.

Totally untrue mate, the deal was for 12 TOTAL (8+ 4 options), nothing has been reduced.

In January 2009, Boeing was selected by the Indian Government to supply eight P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the Indian Navy. The contract also includes an option for four P-8I aircraft. The Indian Navy is the first export customer for the aircraft.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/p-8i-maritime-patrol-aircraft-india/


Exercising the option for four more P-8s in addition to the eight that were purchased under a 2009 $2.1 billion deal
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-to-buy-four-additional-p-8is-414678/


So 12 units by early 2020s, from 2020-2030 the IN will induct more (likely in batch orders) to meet their ultimate goal of >30 units.

Perhaps you were thinking about this news:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...-24-boeing-p-8i-maritime-patrol-aircraft.html

But this is on top of this current 12 unit (8+4) order, +12=24. There is no news right now on the numbers post the current 12 though but certainly the IN has not scaled down their plans, if anything they have scaled them up (as seen by their deployment pattern). The addtional 4 units was part of the orginal contract clause so of course the IN would exercise it first before looking to larger batches at a later date.

i dont it happening you either compromise or find a product india builds and convert it for asw/sar. ka226t anyone???

Totally inadequte. The Ka-226 is around 3 tons, the IN's ASW NMRH will be in the 10 and 12 ton. In the Ka-226 class they have a seperate N-LUH procurement going on for 50-100 units.

so its already delayed

No, it is still early in 2017, work will begin in the next few weeks/months.

so the same mid range radar as moder indian ships but what im interested in is the long range radar. lets see.......

Such new systems will come on the next generation of navy destroyers (Project 18) in the middle of the next decade. The EL/M-2248 is still easily one of the finest radars available today and suited to what the P-17A frigates will be used for, they are no cruisers/BMD vessels.

 

[trumphdonald3]

HAL and DRDO guys

 

[Blue Marlin]

If you follow these matters you will see that this GoI has made a SERIOUS dent in the long list of backlogged deals they inherited (>90% are signed now), they haven't even really started looking at their own procurement plans- when they do things will get very interesting.

As for the process as a whole, numerous steps have been taken (increased discretion powers to local commanders, service cheifs, the Def Min and Fin Min as well as a new DPP). Again, it will be a while to see the real benefits of such steps.

really........... >90% signed??????????

Utterly silly to compare the two nations:

1) There is ZERO accountability in the Pakistani system, the Military runs the show- they get what they want. In India there are countless checks and balances for all defence deals- it will take a lot longer as a result. The military has no powers to procure equipment.
2) Pakistan's deals are of relatively low value and little complexity, there is no requirement for local production or high level offsets.

they do near enough the same thing india does...... they have tenders and trails and picks whats best.
from what i read last year (from their modp) all of pakistans new purchases would require a 35% tot and local production from imports does not count.

right now there looking to buy 500 sph either the b-52 nora or a south africain type. 100 imported and 400 to be built locally.
if i were to say who would buy 500 sph's quicker, india or pakistan? the pakistanis would have them way before india. as my friend told me its done in ist (indian standard time)

Totally untrue mate, the deal was for 12 TOTAL (8+ 4 options), nothing has been reduced.

In January 2009, Boeing was selected by the Indian Government to supply eight P-8I maritime reconnaissance aircraft to the Indian Navy. The contract also includes an option for four P-8I aircraft. The Indian Navy is the first export customer for the aircraft.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/p-8i-maritime-patrol-aircraft-india/


Exercising the option for four more P-8s in addition to the eight that were purchased under a 2009 $2.1 billion deal
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-to-buy-four-additional-p-8is-414678/


So 12 units by early 2020s, from 2020-2030 the IN will induct more (likely in batch orders) to meet their ultimate goal of >30 units.

Perhaps you were thinking about this news:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/inde...-24-boeing-p-8i-maritime-patrol-aircraft.html

But this is on top of this current 12 unit (8+4) order, +12=24. There is no news right now on the numbers post the current 12 though but certainly the IN has not scaled down their plans, if anything they have scaled them up (as seen by their deployment pattern). The addtional 4 units was part of the orginal contract clause so of course the IN would exercise it first before looking to larger batches at a later date.

mmmmmm ok thanks.

Totally inadequte. The Ka-226 is around 3 tons, the IN's ASW NMRH will be in the 10 and 12 ton. In the Ka-226 class they have a seperate N-LUH procurement going on for 50-100 units.

its an idea, other wise india is left with the seakings you either need budge on make in india or wait for some bad to happen to force goi to buy them of the shelf. or even force the navy to buy versions of the dhruv and convert them, which they said is unsuitable.

No, it is still early in 2017, work will begin in the next few weeks/months.


Such new systems will come on the next generation of navy destroyers (Project 18) in the middle of the next decade. The EL/M-2248 is still easily one of the finest radars available today and suited to what the P-17A frigates will be used for, they are no cruisers/BMD vessels.

thats not what i was told ,was supposed be begin construction late jan early feb.


-----------------------------------------

ok were deviating from the topic here big time (my fault). lets not get bogged down with who's buying what and when and who faster than the other.

anyway seaplanes...........
i think they want to convert the do-228 into a seaplane because there are running out of orders quiet soon and would want to work on its conversion quiet soon.

personally i think it's a crazy idea. but it depends on the requirements. if they need quiet a lot which i find hard to imagine then it may by viable but a lot of work would need to be dont to the landing gear at it's protruding from the main body as shown below

where as the twin otter has a flush fusalage with modular landing gears
you have have it with floats

you can it for solely land use

or you can have both.

heck even ski's too.......

 

[Callsign Chaos]

so its already delayed

Mazagon Dockyard will do keel laying on March, 27.

 

[Blue Marlin]

Mazagon Dockyard will do keel laying on March, 27.

bloody hell so they scraped it to the very end. early 2017 or q1 2017. i heard the latter but they can still claim to lay the keel in early 2017.