India spanks USA over diplomat arrest issue !

[Bang Galore]

It's not like she was strip-searched in public at airport security like one of my relatives, or photographed confused and in handcuffs like Dominique Strauss-Kahn. Khobragade was treated with discretion: we only have her word for it that she was humiliated. Certainly her search was neither public nor invasive. How much "consideration" this woman merits may be a subjective judgment but it appears the U.S. met the legal standard - certainly a greater amount of discretion than was shown in the Strauss-Kahn case.

That's silly. Do you want American diplomats to be dealt with by other countries in "standard operating procedures" of that country's police force what ever that might be? I'm sure U.S. diplomats would be wetting their pants if that were the operating norm. The person arrested by U.S. authorities was a diplomat representing India, not a private citizen. Her treatment is seen as an insult to the state, not just as one of an individual. If you are unable to understand the basic grounds of Indian dissatisfaction, you are unlikely to ever be able to resolve these types of matters.

In any case, the message is probably well understood. Forget what is going to happen with this case(diplomat will have immunity, charges may stay or not), the U.S. wouldn't be forgetting this in a hurry when any other request for action against Indian diplomats crops up. Nor will most others in the world. The Indian reaction has served its purpose. (Btw, there are a whole bunch of spouses of U.S. diplomats who are in technical violation of Indian visa rules for working without the requisite work permits, visa fraud anyone?)

When was the last time evidence existed to accuse a U.S. diplomat of human trafficking?

Well, there is this report:

One Tokyo embassy U.S. diplomat identified here as Thurmond Borden, had domestic troubles. The story is that in 1993, 40 year-old Lucia Martel was working as a domestic in Manila. In March of that same year, Mr. Borden was visiting the Philippines on vacation with his Filipino wife, and the couple was looking for a woman. Mr. and Mrs. Borden offered Lucia a monthly wage of about Y30,000 (USD300). To comply with the Japanese immigration regulations, a written contract was signed that contained very different language. The contract stated her working conditions as six days/week, eight hours/day, a monthly salary of Y150,000 (USD1500), and an overtime pay of 125%. The contract papers were submitted both to the U.S. Embassy and to the Japanese Immigration Bureau.
Lucia started working at Borden’s residence October 16, 1993. Despite her contract, she was forced to work from six in the morning to ten in the evening, and was not allowed to rest even on Christmas and New Years according to reports.

On May 22, 1994, reports were that Lucia complained to Mrs. Borden and the latter confiscated Lucia’s original contract, return air-ticket and Alien Registration Certificate. This Certificate is very important for expatriates in Japan. It must be carried at all times and if caught without it, one may end up being taken into custody by the police. Lucia went to the Naka-ward municipal office to have a new card issued. The shocked office staff who heard her story contacted the police. A Japanese cop visited the Borden’s residence to take Lucia’s Registration Certificate back from Mrs. Borden. Mr. Borden, returning from his work, was said to have become enraged. He allegedly shouted, “Go back to the Philippines!” to Lucia. Lucia feared that she might be assaulted. She fled the residence taking none of her belongings except the clothes she was wearing.

Lucia eventually tried to sue the Borden’s, and organized protest marches outside the U.S. embassy. The State Department, however, claimed diplomatic immunity on Borden’s behalf and the Japanese legal system dropped the case. State Department records list Borden now as the head of the Consular Section in Jakarta where, among other tasks, he has responsibility for issuing maid visas to U.S. diplomats’ domestic help bound for the U.S.

Diplomatic Abuse of Servants: Not Just for Indians | The Dissenter

 

[Beidou2020]

at no point did I defend the " criminal" , unlike you do of the massage parlors you chinese export to every country, dum Lee

lol dude, you of all people should not be hating on massage parlours. A guy like you probably never experienced kissing a woman let alone getting laid. Massage parlours is probably the closest you will ever get.

I'd rather we export massage parlours than exporting dairy shops and curry smelling taxi drivers.

 

[idune]

The Justice department and NY prosecutors mean business, but the State department is looking for a way out. They have different priorities; the DOJ is concerned with domestic law enforcement, State is concerned with forging international relations to serve US interests.

All this blustering is for the US media because the State department can't be seen to undermine justice and contradict other parts of the government. Once the spotlight is off, the State department will find a way to soothe India.

US DOS informed indian govt about the violation in Sep and india did not take any action. DOJ did not take any action until green light from DOS. You can fall for DOJ and DOS differences but fact remains both department reports to same boss. And boss completely ignored indian tamper tantrum.

The US needs India as part of its Asian strategy.
And India knows it.

Fact is US has been running its strategy without india so far. Besides, indian subversion in Afghanistan and elsewhere hut US interest. What US knows is india is not reliable partner for its strategy. India had been slipping and sliding on responsibility that comes with "strategic partner" title. And this incident will further clarify US understanding about india.

 

[sincity]

US DOS informed indian govt about the violation in Sep and india did not take any action. DOJ did not take any action until green light from DOS. You can fall for DOJ and DOS differences but fact remains both department reports to same boss. And boss completely ignored indian tamper tantrum.



Fact is US has been running its strategy without india so far. Besides, indian subversion in Afghanistan and elsewhere hut US interest. What US knows is india is not reliable partner for its strategy. India had been slipping and sliding on responsibility that comes with "strategic partner" title. And this incident will further clarify US understanding about india.

India want to partner with US to contain China, not the other way around. India want to be a regional power and they view China infringe on their area of sphere of influence in South Asia. Can India effective push off China from partner with South Asia? the answer simply no if India try without the strategic partnership of the US in the region. Delusional to think US desperate needed India to deal with China.

 

[Sashan]

That's silly. Do you want American diplomats to be dealt with by other countries in "standard operating procedures" of that country's police force what ever that might be? I'm sure U.S. diplomats would be wetting their pants if that were the operating norm. The person arrested by U.S. authorities was a diplomat representing India, not a private citizen. Her treatment is seen as an insult to the state, not just as one of an individual. If you are unable to understand the basic grounds of Indian dissatisfaction, you are unlikely to ever be able to resolve these types of matters.

In any case, the message is probably well understood. Forget what is going to happen with this case(diplomat will have immunity, charges may stay or not), the U.S. wouldn't be forgetting this in a hurry when any other request for action against Indian diplomats crops up. Nor will most others in the world. The Indian reaction has served its purpose. (Btw, there are a whole bunch of spouses of U.S. diplomats who are in technical violation of Indian visa rules for working without the requisite work permits, visa fraud anyone?)



Well, there is this report:

The fallout of this episode -

1. Not just U.S, other countries which would want a relationship will be cautious in future in dealing with Indian IFS officials(I am not using the word diplomats) in their country including things about their personal affairs.
2. Indian IFS officials will be a law unto themselves in foreign countries and will abuse a range of personal privileges, the first shield by their IFS fraternity and the second major shield by the patriotic outage from India. Local laws then will be for the locals and the other Indians while it is not for them, the IFS fraternity. They can even get away with murder involving their personal business.
3. While common man living abroad including other Indians who would earn lot more than these officials will not be able to afford a maid, these elite tribe will bring in maid for a pittance creating an oasis of feudal society among the Indian diplomatic fraternity of that country. In short the maids will not be paid anything(forget about the on par salary abroad) while the IFS fraternity will have the best of both worlds - compensation for cost of living and maid service, a luxury even for people who earn twice as much as these IFS officials.
4. Some psycho of an IFS official will torture and injure the maid and even if the maid wants to go back, if he/she withholds the passport, the uneducated maid will not be able to do anything nor the local law enforcement officials. And the IFS official will continue any mistreatment of that maid with impunity, paying less than even the $3 and change what the indirect contract would say and the Indians would have indirectly condoned and underwritten their support for that IFS official.

Bravo.....

 

[faithfulguy]

lol dude, you of all people should not be hating on massage parlours. A guy like you probably never experienced kissing a woman let alone getting laid. Massage parlours is probably the closest you will ever get.

I'd rather we export massage parlours than exporting dairy shops and curry smelling taxi drivers.

Just curious, who are you responding to?

 

[Beidou2020]

Just curious, who are you responding to?

To mr Apu

 

[Guynextdoor2]

It's not like she was strip-searched in public at airport security like one of my relatives, or photographed confused and in handcuffs like Dominique Strauss-Kahn. Khobragade was treated with discretion: we only have her word for it that she was humiliated. Certainly her search was neither public nor invasive. How much "consideration" this woman merits may be a subjective judgment but it appears the U.S. met the legal standard - certainly a greater amount of discretion than was shown in the Strauss-Kahn case.

A difficult situation resolved following Pakistani legal practice and in accord with the relevant Conventions - and it had nothing to do with human trafficking. The End.

Oy, vey!

Maybe some day I'll get a Pakistani girlfriend...Jewish, of course -

Do I see Solomon the wise baulk in a sophisticated manner? It only had a murder involved in it- just as serious an offence. 'Diffucult situation'....hmm...this one was a 'difficult situation' too

Just curious, who are you responding to?

Doesn't matter. 50 cent no matter who it is .

 

[cyphercide]

If this happened to a Pakistani diplomat, Express Tribune would be the first to stab Pakistan in the back. ET and the usual obsequious sycophants in Pakistan would be lining up to suck up to the US and portray Pakistanis as terrorists, brainwashed mullahs, and uneducated fools.

Whether India 'wins' or loses this tussle with the US, the fact remains that India has shown time and again the willingness to stand firm when its national interests are challenged. (Note: this is not about Devyani as a person; it's about American respect for India's concerns.)

Whatever happens, the US will have more respect for India as a country and will tread carefully next time. India has made it clear that 'times have changed' and the US will take note, as Italy did.

Perhaps you speak from personal experience but I don't particularly see such critiques as non-constructive or even apologetic in their tone. Both sides of the Khobragade gate have been fairly represented in the Indian media without any of them being called out as biased propaganda. I'd rather choose to perceive it as a clarion call to the Pakistani administration to seek equity in their relations with Washington. This becomes more prominent when you consider that India is a nation that has undermined and vociferously opposed American foreign policy numerous times whereas Pakistan is, at least on paper, an ally that has served US interests for decades.

One can only be amused by all this because nothing like this would ever happen with us. We dare not retaliate. We have blocked off our whole diplomatic enclave to cater to our foreign guests.

In Karachi, for five years we did not allow the road in front of the US Consulate to be opened for general traffic. We even built a road across one of the city’s parks so that the consul general could get home from work without having to go through traffic lights.

Our diplomats in the US remain under pressure. Even when diplomats are questioned by the US authorities, their only reaction is to keep quiet. In many instances, the Pakistanis are in the wrong but their immunity status is not respected. This is in clear contrast to the Raymond Davis affair when a person with questionable status still managed to claim it.

There can be two reasons for the subservient attitude of the Pakistanis. Our government would never consider going into tit for tat reprisals. It would cost us dearly. And second, many Pakistani diplomats in the US have applied for or are in the process of applying for green cards.

Every time we try to raise our heads, we are told in clear terms where we stand. Take for example the efforts to block the route of NATO trucks through Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. US Defence Secretary Chuck Hagel is believed to have told the Pakistan government if it did not resolve protests stalling military shipments across the border into Afghanistan, it could be difficult to maintain political support in Washington for an aid programme that has sent billions of dollars to Islamabad.

Check Mate – The Express Tribune

While I agree with you that the reverberations of this particular case will last long after Devyani gets released, My set of expectations from the Indian government and its legal system would be different as and when she does walk free:

The Indian government has asked for salary and worker compensation details from the American embassy. As things stand, the American side have requested(and received) an extension to furnish these details. Will India pursue and charge guilty parties even in the event of Devyani's case being resolved amicably?

Will India pursue the charges of "aiding immigration fraud" by US authorities? What about the injunction issued by the Delhi High Court? Will a follow up be carried out?

Will the allegations of harassment of Mrs. Richard's family be investigated?

Considering there is a history of such cases concerning diplomats and domestic help, why has the government not issued guidelines on the matter till date?

 

[Guynextdoor2]

The fallout of this episode -

1. Not just U.S, other countries which would want a relationship will be cautious in future in dealing with Indian IFS officials(I am not using the word diplomats) in their country including things about their personal affairs.
2. Indian IFS officials will be a law unto themselves in foreign countries and will abuse a range of personal privileges, the first shield by their IFS fraternity and the second major shield by the patriotic outage from India. Local laws then will be for the locals and the other Indians while it is not for them, the IFS fraternity. They can even get away with murder involving their personal business.
3. While common man living abroad including other Indians who would earn lot more than these officials will not be able to afford a maid, these elite tribe will bring in maid for a pittance creating an oasis of feudal society among the Indian diplomatic fraternity of that country. In short the maids will not be paid anything(forgot about the on par salary abroad) while the IFS fraternity will have the best of both worlds - compensation for cost of living and maid service, a luxury even for people who earn twice as much as these IFS officials.
4. Some psycho of an IFS official will torture and injure the maid and even if the maid wants to go back, if he/she withholds the passport, the uneducated maid will not be able to do anything nor the local law enforcement officials. And the IFS official will continue any mistreatment of that maid with impunity, paying less than even the $3 and change what the indirect contract would say and the Indians would have indirectly condoned and underwritten their support for that IFS official.

Bravo.....

What's your problem man? That we aren't cheering you as you present a picture of 'justice denied' n the US system?

 

[Developereo]

Perhaps you speak from personal experience but I don't particularly see such critiques as non-constructive or even apologetic in their tone.

You missed my point entirely.

The ET tirade purportedly admonishes Pakistani administration to be more assertive against the US. In reality, ET is the band leader for the suck-ups in Pakistan who shout "Islamist" and "terrorist" at anyone who dares criticize the US for anything. These are the same people who blabber endlessly about Pakistan needing to improve relations with the West -- with no context of reciprocity. What they are really saying is that they will gladly sell their own grandmother to make a buck and how dare any Pakistani resist American pressure against Pakistan's national interests.

We have quite a few examples in this forum itself.

 

[Developereo]

US DOS informed indian govt about the violation in Sep and india did not take any action. DOJ did not take any action until green light from DOS. You can fall for DOJ and DOS differences but fact remains both department reports to same boss. And boss completely ignored indian tamper tantrum.

It's complicated.

From what I gather, State gave the go-ahead, months back, for the case to proceed, but top officials at the State dept. were not informed about the arrest itself. The arrest seems to have caught them off guard as well.

It's not clear what strategy the State dept. was pursuing, but it seems they are not happy at the current turn of events.

P.S. I don't believe any of the conspiracy theories being floated by Indians involving the CIA or retaliation for Indian FM's alleged obstinacy or whatever.

 

[Sashan]

What's your problem man? That we aren't cheering you as you present a picture of 'justice denied' n the US system?

- And as I mentioned before, please take your wisdom elsewhere to have discussions with fellow members of your caliber.

 

[cyphercide]

You missed my point entirely.

The ET tirade purportedly admonishes Pakistani administration to be more assertive against the US. In reality, ET is the band leader for the suck-ups in Pakistan who shout "Islamist" and "terrorist" at anyone who dares criticize the US for anything. These are the same people who blabber endlessly about Pakistan needing to improve relations with the West -- with no context of reciprocity. What they are really saying is that they will gladly sell their own grandmother to make a buck and how dare any Pakistani resist American pressure against Pakistan's national interests.

We have quite a few examples in this forum itself.

Which is why I specified that perhaps you speak from personal experience. I am a fairly new reader of the Express Tribune and I'm yet to pick up that vibe. Which Pakistani paper/magazine would you recommend instead?

 

[Developereo]

Which is why I specified that perhaps you speak from personal experience. I am a fairly new reader of the Express Tribune and I'm yet to pick up that vibe. Which Pakistani paper/magazine would you recommend instead?

I honestly wouldn't know what to recommend. I mostly read DAWN and it is quite good and balanced, especially on domestic issues, although, for my tastes, it could do with a dash of strong nationalism.