India slams Israeli attack on Gaza aid flotilla

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Don't confuse the ability to influence the people in another country ( the best example of a proxy would have been the pre 2001Taliban) with your own countrymen running amok in someone else's country. That would be terrorism without even a fig leaf of an excuse.

Why do you think I am confusing anything? Did I suggest that those who committed the Mumbai attacks or the Marriot bombing or attacks on various mosques in Pakistan are not terrorists? Again, this is just you creating strawman after strawman to avoid actually addressing the points I raise. Proxies are not automatically terrorists, and there is no evidence Pakistan has deliberately supported terrorists (as defined by groups or individuals with policies to deliberately attack civilians) or terrorism.

So too have we. While your examples of "Indian hate" is restricted to angry words, the hatred that some of your countrymen express towards us manifests itself through acts of butchery in numerous dead bodies of my countrymen & women. Even if, as you argue the state is not culpable, the hatred felt & expressed by many of those masquerading as "non state actors" is simply not comparable to angry opinions expressed by any number of Indians, on any parameter.

Unlike you, I have no need for any other type of evidence to make my point.

That 'hate expressed by non-state actors acting violently against Indian civilians' remains confined to an extremely small minority, so while you have 'evidence', it is evidence that only illustrates what that extremely small minority believe, whereas the 'evidence' related to rather hateful and bigoted Indian attitudes and opinions is comprised of tens of thousands of opinions and comments on mainstream Indian news sites such as ToI, HT, etc. and blogs and forums, not to mention Western News sites and blogs as well - you shoudl really check out the views of your countrymen on the WSJ, WaPo, NYT and other Western fora on terrorist attacks in Pakistan especially, but any Pakistan related issue in general, to understand what this 'bigotry and hatred' that celebrates even the massacres of innocents is all about.

You won't find that kind of appalling attitude on mainstream Pakistani news sites, blogs and forums.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thanks for clarifying that domestic issues are none of others bussines...

I hope the domestic issues of India like Gujarat issues were not raised by Pakistanis and your domestic problems like your Ahmedis problem is not raised by Indians in retaliation... after all they are internal issues and just based on religion/in name of championing humanitarion cause nobody interferes...

Domestic issues, especially issues related to communal tensions, are not the business of other States, especially when secessionist sentiment might be at play - please don't distort my comments on that issue - they related to States, not individuals.

It is however completely appropriate for people to comment on any issue, as is the case on this forum and elsewhere.

 

[Rocketsingh]

I don't view the GoI's condemnation of this incident as any different than their new found interest in the IPI, undersea pipeline from Iran, and opposition to sanctions on Iran (which India has no influence over) - its just PR diplomacy to try and win influence and support for the Indian position in Afghanistan in the aftermath of a perceived US withdrawal.

The same government voted against Iran when it did have influence through a vote, and the same government wanted nothing to do with buying gas from Iran when the GoI saw India as ascendant in Afghanistan with Bush in charge and it was obtaining an NSG waiver.

This 'condemnation' plays into that PR, of appealing to the Iranian right wing as well as the Arabs who might get involved in Afghanistan and may still retain influence and be working behind the scenes to facilitate the 'Taliban reintegration/reconciliation' plan by Karzai.

In terms of actual effect - India will continue buying weapons from Israel and continuing to collaborate on the military, intelligence and diplomatic fronts.

yeah u r right to say this

1)it will give muslim votes in front channel

2)in back end,it will give weapons etc

as israeli amb'r said that many countries including india silently supports israel

but as ur talking abt voting against iran,u can iran how much time they have voted against india in muslim countries organization for kashmir

 

[PlanetWarrior]

Weoww :/

10char

The journalist who snapped this photo committed suicide a few weeks later after witnessing the vulture perched there waiting for the malnourished child to die. The child in the pic by the way was about 7 years old. I can't discuss the Gaza situation since I haven't been to the mid-east and have not kept abreast with the issues out there but IMO the access to basic nutrition which ensures that we are kept alive including access to water is often wasted by many of us who have no idea of the reality in certain parts of the world.

Gaza must be affected by the blockade since the Israelis would not waste the resources and manpower to blockade the area if the sole result would be negative publicity for Israel. Hopefully the impasse can be resolved with both Hamas and Israel committing to dialogue

 

[notsuperstitious]

.

You won't find that kind of appalling attitude on mainstream Pakistani news sites, blogs and forums.

Thats your OPINION and we don't agree, simple. We think there's tremendous burning hate on mainstread pakistani media / newspapers / blogs (check some examples i gave) and forums too. Infact the hate peddled there is not only political ,its racial, religious and supremacist hatred. Look at the extremely bigoted racist posts by even elite members right here about our color, smell and what not! How ypur national cricketer goes on TV and makes religiously bigoted comments and how the popular host cheers him on is not lost on us. The tremendous popularity of people like zaid hamid (which only took a beating when he messed with mullahs) who call us all sorts of racist dirty things and gets cheered, his shows in best of pakistani universities are not lost on us and the cheering he gets for his threats to kill us all when he conquers us are indeed as mainstread as they get as they happen right on your tv, in your universities and his every single comment / article is posted here with much admiration.

And we have reasons to believe the complicity of the state in these too, given the papers by nayyar on what stuff is taught to kids by the GOVT, the GOVT that supported JUD (name plate changed LET) the close industry scale ties with these 'freedom fighter'org with the pakistani STATE are all for us to see.

So we don't at all agree that such bigoted racist intolerant religious supremacist attitudes are not there in pakistan, infact they are there in many many times more magnitude than india.

 

[notsuperstitious]

The journalist who snapped this photo committed suicide a few weeks later after witnessing the vulture perched there waiting for the malnourished child to die. The child in the pic by the way was about 7 years old. I can't discuss the Gaza situation since I haven't been to the mid-east and have not kept abreast with the issues out there but IMO the access to basic nutrition which ensures that we are kept alive including access to water is often wasted by many of us who have no idea of the reality in certain parts of the world.

Gaza must be affected by the blockade since the Israelis would not waste the resources and manpower to blockade the area if the sole result would be negative publicity for Israel. Hopefully the impasse can be resolved with both Hamas and Israel committing to dialogue

Isn't China a strong backer of Sudan govt? What no rants here against China?

I wonder what would have made peoples'attitude so hypocritical that when india says something it's a lie but when other 'brothers' DO something its awwrighteee?

 

[Indiarox]

Isn't China a strong backer of Sudan govt? What no rants here against China?

I wonder what would have made peoples'attitude so hypocritical that when india says something it's a lie but when other 'brothers' DO something its awwrighteee?

In simple terms its called double standards
Like in the case of the Uyghur's a mandate of the U.N is needed(which china can conveniently block )
But the same U.N which declares JUD a terrorist organisation and its mandate is not applied.

 

[Bang Galore]

Why do you think I am confusing anything? Did I suggest that those who committed the Mumbai attacks or the Marriot bombing or attacks on various mosques in Pakistan are not terrorists? Again, this is just you creating strawman after strawman to avoid actually addressing the points I raise. Proxies are not automatically terrorists, and there is no evidence Pakistan has deliberately supported terrorists (as defined by groups or individuals with policies to deliberately attack civilians) or terrorism.

You are the one who claimed that proxies are not terrorists( I saw your clarification about "necessarily") in reply to this comment.

Originally Posted by Spitfighter
By that measure wouldn't Pakistan be considered a state sponsor of terror, since the LeT/JuD is banned yet most (even folks here) Pakistanis openly support using proxies against India in Kashmir and otherwise?

There is a clear reference to LeT/JuD in the statement that you quoted from. How should I read it? If the connection was not intended, say so & we will move on.

That 'hate expressed by non-state actors acting violently against Indian civilians' remains confined to an extremely small minority, so while you have 'evidence', it is evidence that only illustrates what that extremely small minority believe, whereas the 'evidence' related to rather hateful and bigoted Indian attitudes and opinions is comprised of tens of thousands of opinions and comments on mainstream Indian news sites such as ToI, HT, etc. and blogs and forums, not to mention Western News sites and blogs as well - you shoudl really check out the views of your countrymen on the WSJ, WaPo, NYT and other Western fora on terrorist attacks in Pakistan especially, but any Pakistan related issue in general, toT understand what this 'bigotry and hatred' that celebrates even the massacres of innocents is all about.

You won't find that kind of appalling attitude on mainstream Pakistani news sites, blogs and forums.

Have no idea as to how you would define the size of this "extremely small minority". Regardless of their size, they seem to attract much support which also involves looking the other way when attempts are made by India to book them. Hafeez Saeed has been described as a person who is only involved in charity while he is busy with hate speeches against India. Politicians from all parties routinely share a dais with him.Who can forget as Fateh points out, college students cheering Zaid Hamid when he rails against India & Hindus? A member on this forum said that what he wished for his new born son was to participate in Ghazwa e Hind when he grows up. Don't even have to look that far; you have never condemned HS as far as I remember. You have used your considerable debating skills to obfuscate the issue talking about a perceived absence of evidence when you seem to make no similar distinctions with those who are thought of as Pakistan's enemies.

The "small minority" that you refer to cannot exist without the silent or active support of a much larger group. There can be no justification that would be accepted if someone said that he funds Al Qaeda's charity organisation, such an excuse must not be accepted when the organisation in question is JuD . Yet we see much support for such funding.

No Indian public figure could ever get away denigrating someone's religion as they do so openly in Pakistan. There are umpteen references to "bagal me churi, muh me Ram Ram" and "bania" in this forum to denigrate Indians. I'm not even starting on the colour and ugliness comments. Dravidian is used almost as a degrading term.Fateh has provided a far more exhaustive list in his post.

I second Fateh when he says that your remarks reflect your own opinion & nothing more. Would gladly revisit when you see & recognise the "appalling attitude" of quite a few Pakistanis that we see so routinely on this forum & elsewhere.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thats your OPINION and we don't agree, simple. We think there's tremendous burning hate on mainstread pakistani media / newspapers / blogs (check some examples i gave) and forums too.

Please point out where a majority of Pakistani posters/opinions on mainstream media outlets such as Dawn, Daily Times, The News etc. were celebrating terrorist attacks on Indians or anyone else, as has been the case almost every single time a terrorist attack or negative event in Pakistan has been reported in the Indian media.

Infact the hate peddled there is not only political ,its racial, religious and supremacist hatred. Look at the extremely bigoted racist posts by even elite members right here about our color, smell and what not! How ypur national cricketer goes on TV and makes religiously bigoted comments and how the popular host cheers him on is not lost on us. The tremendous popularity of people like zaid hamid (which only took a beating when he messed with mullahs) who call us all sorts of racist dirty things and gets cheered, his shows in best of pakistani universities are not lost on us and the cheering he gets for his threats to kill us all when he conquers us are indeed as mainstread as they get as they happen right on your tv, in your universities and his every single comment / article is posted here with much admiration.

And those comments remain confined to a handful of the total Pakistani members on this site, unlike the majority of the posters on Indian forums such as BR (where the management condones and engages in such bigotry and hate-mongering against Pakistanis) and unlike the majority of Indians posting on mainstream Indian media sites such as ToI and HT (do check out Pakistani comments on Dawn's blogs etc.)

Zaid Hamid gets cheered because of his brand of 'Islamic Nationalism' intertwined with his 'Pakistani nationalism', and his fall from grace was not just because of his tangle with the Mullah's, but also because the Pakistani liberals and moderates took him to task in the mainstream media quite viciously over his 'extremist' comments. He got pummeled from Left and Right, and in that 'pummeling' is present something absent from Indian discourse, rational voices arguing against the omnipresent anti-Pakistan bigotry in India. On this forum the only individual I can see that makes an effort to combat such views is EylessInGaza, and I have yet to find people, barring Arundhati Roy who is vilified by Indians every time she utters a peep, who have been able to shift the discourse in their favor.

And we have reasons to believe the complicity of the state in these too, given the papers by nayyar on what stuff is taught to kids by the GOVT, the GOVT that supported JUD (name plate changed LET) the close industry scale ties with these 'freedom fighter'org with the pakistani STATE are all for us to see.

Where does the State teach Pakistanis that Indians are 'smelly, dark skinny creatures'?

So we don't at all agree that such bigoted racist intolerant religious supremacist attitudes are not there in pakistan, infact they are there in many many times more magnitude than india.

Absolutely bigoted attitudes exist in Pakistan, it is a strawman to say I suggested otherwise, especially given my comments on the Ahmadi thread, but given the prevalence of hateful Indian views on the web over the years, celebratory even in the massacres of innocents in Pakistan, and exulting in anything negative about Pakistan, the evidence is clearly in favor of such bigoted opinions being far more prevalent in India than Pakistan.

 

[johnny boy]

Apparently an Indian Muslim starts this topic to do some damage control to redeem Indian image in front of the world--Indian bloggers are almost uniquely supportive of Israeli criminality of supporting the Israeli raid of the Gaza Flotilla.

But we can count on @Sraja to keep damaging India's interests! Good job, dude. Firstly, these videos may have been pre-2007 era. Secondly, even if there are isolated cases of shops being filled with goods, neutral UN and Red Cross sources say that Gaza is getting only about 1/4th of their required amount of supplies. Even in today's Zimbabwe or Afghanistan you will find some pockets of 'prosperity'; but that does not make the larger picture.

@Sraja, keep doing the great work for India!

As to Indian support for the Palestinians, well, historically Indian govt. may have been but that all changed starting sometime early 90s. These statements of solidarity with the Palestinians are hollow words echoing some 'routine' foreign policy statements while deep down, as Indian bloggers here say, Indians are firmly with Israel.

Pathetic!

attack on aid ship was absolutely justified!!!!!!!!damn u sraja.long live india israel

 

[anathema]

Deleted the message.

 

[M8R]

I think the argument that the activists attacked commandos when they entered the ship and therefore commandos retaliated is totally retarded statementThe ship was in international borders as such Israel Army did not have jurisdiction on the ship.In legal terms, it would be an act of piracy so the the ship passengers would have the authority to defend themselves.It's like Pakistan Army Commandos boarding a Indian Merchant Ship out of Pakistan's territorial waters.

 

[notsuperstitious]

Please point out where a majority of Pakistani posters/opinions on mainstream media outlets such as Dawn, Daily Times, The News etc. were celebrating terrorist attacks on Indians or anyone else, as has been the case almost every single time a terrorist attack or negative event in Pakistan has been reported in the Indian media.


And those comments remain confined to a handful of the total Pakistani members on this site, unlike the majority of the posters on Indian forums such as BR (where the management condones and engages in such bigotry and hate-mongering against Pakistanis) and unlike the majority of Indians posting on mainstream Indian media sites such as ToI and HT (do check out Pakistani comments on Dawn's blogs etc.)

Zaid Hamid gets cheered because of his brand of 'Islamic Nationalism' intertwined with his 'Pakistani nationalism', and his fall from grace was not just because of his tangle with the Mullah's, but also because the Pakistani liberals and moderates took him to task in the mainstream media quite viciously over his 'extremist' comments. He got pummeled from Left and Right, and in that 'pummeling' is present something absent from Indian discourse, rational voices arguing against the omnipresent anti-Pakistan bigotry in India. On this forum the only individual I can see that makes an effort to combat such views is EylessInGaza, and I have yet to find people, barring Arundhati Roy who is vilified by Indians every time she utters a peep, who have been able to shift the discourse in their favor.

Where does the State teach Pakistanis that Indians are 'smelly, dark skinny creatures'?

Absolutely bigoted attitudes exist in Pakistan, it is a strawman to say I suggested otherwise, especially given my comments on the Ahmadi thread, but given the prevalence of hateful Indian views on the web over the years, celebratory even in the massacres of innocents in Pakistan, and exulting in anything negative about Pakistan, the evidence is clearly in favor of such bigoted opinions being far more prevalent in India than Pakistan.

AM, I'll keep it short, there are absolutrely brilliant, liberal, humanist, pacifist, respectable voices on Pakistani side and I much respect it, despite the presence of absolutely crazy bigoted voices and I treat them on merit.

I expect the same from you and I refuse to be held hostage to some (not necessarily ur) weird claims about India's pragmatism to be called hypocracy. What we did was in the open, our deals with Israel are open and our support for palestinians is open too, historically, and our material help to the palestinians REAL.

So lets not pass moral judgements when we all follow pragmatic approaches in foreign policy, ex - ur relations with China. The thread is abt India's condemnation of Israeli actions, lets stick to that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

In simple terms its called double standards
Like in the case of the Uyghur's a mandate of the U.N is needed(which china can conveniently block )
But the same U.N which declares JUD a terrorist organisation and its mandate is not applied.

The UN sanctions on JuD canard has already been answered by me - please check my previous posts instead of making the same debunked argument again.

 

[Fighter488]

Some of the aid and support India has given to Palestine cause in recent past :

1. India gifts embassy to Palestine, pledge $20 million aid

2. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1117099.cms

3. ReliefWeb » Document » OPT: PRCS receives humanitarian aid from the Indian people and Government

4. Humanitarian aid to Palestine - Indian Ministry of External Affairs press release/Non-UN document (11 August 2006)

5. What Indians And Palestinians Share



Some History of support:

1. Indian Muslims And Palestine Waqfs | Indian Muslims

2. India?Palestine relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

3. Mahatma Gandhi Rejected Zionism

4. Mahatma Gandhi on Zionism and Palestine


These are few links to enrich those who question Indian support to Palestine.They forget that they themselves need to do other than lip-service to thier brethern.

Fighter