India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

[thebrownguy]

Lol i dont prefer it becuase of that, i am just telling you guy whats being told to me.


- most limited ToT – Exact TOT details will never be revealed until the final decision comes out, I cannot answer that yet as no one how the last offer after the price negotiations will look like.
- EUM - I am sure the end user Monitoring agreements will be written specifically for India. Do you think Boeing would plan to loose the Indian Market by putting in a restrictive EUM agreement ? lol I don’t think so

- no source codes – Again too early- cannot answer.
- no customization – wrong – as quoted in defence industry daily –
“ F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet (Boeing, USA). Highly upgraded version of the F/A-18 A-D Hornet, enlarged and given new engines and avionics. Commonality between the Hornet and Super Hornet is only about 25%. Strengths include its powerful AN/APG-79 AESA radar, which has drawn significant interest from India. This radar could allow Super Hornets to play a unique role in India’s fighter fleet as versatile “quarterbacks” (or better yet, “cricket captains&#8221 due to their radar’s performance and information sharing abilities. Other advantages include carrier capability, a very wide range of integrated weapons, a design that is proven in service and in combat, F414 engines that may also serve as the base for LCA Tejas Mk2; and complete assurance in its future upgrade spiral, given the US Navy’s commitment to it.
The existence of a dedicated electronic warfare variant as of 2009 in the EA-18G Growler may also be a potent motivator, as the growth of sophisticated air defense systems will place a growing premium on this unique capability. Last but certainly not least, this choice offers an opportunity to create an early “win” which would strengthen India’s new alliance with the USA and prove its new status in the world. After all, when clearance for the aircraft was given, no other nation had even been offered the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet.
Since then, of course, close American ally Australia has bought 24 F/A-18F Block IIs in a controversial A$ 6 billion purchase, and even taken steps to modify 12 aircraft toward EA-18G Growler status. Australia’s deployment of Super Hornets gives the platform an additional selling point in the “allied commonality” department, and Boeing’s planned $1.5 billion investment in India’s aerospace market may help deal with defense industrial offset issues. The Super Hornet’s Boeing connection adds many industrial options in the civil aircraft market as well.”

- bigger RCS than EF and Rafale, because they was designed with low RCS from the beginning, F18SH is only an redesigned upgrade (just like Mig 35, or F15 SE) – this depends on the MOD on what type of jet they want. Yes bigger RCS but also LESS cost. The MKI is also a redesigned upgrade- I don’t see anyone complaining

- least maneuverable and would rely in close combat against F16 and J10, only on JHMCS and Aim9, which the F16 of PAF also has – not true, as maneuverable as any of the others except the MIG 35. But it compensates by bringing much more to the table than that –
Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home

- no commonality in IAF fleet what increases maintenance and logistic costs – So is the Typhoon, Griphen, to an extent the Rafale. Building a new infrastructure will infact help the IAF increase its standards. Cost of building one is included in all tenders.

- no chance as a carrier fighter for IN, because F35 is in the same competition if IN wants US weapons and F18Sh will be pretty outdated in 2018 when the carriers with catapults will arrive
- the F-35 lollypop is the only thing exciting about the F-16 offer but keep in mind, with India’s growing buying power and influence, do you really think USA will say no to us if we offer to buy a sizeable amount. The fact of the matter is that the F-35 can be bought with or without going for the F-16. Keep in mind the F-18 operates from all major US navy carriers.

Boeing: F/A-18E/F Super Hornet Home

Sir, ToT and EUM are not small points that can be ignored. Isn't it better to choose Europe, where there are lessor doubts and more transparency? The big RCS and less maneuverability are clear disadvantages over Rafale and Typhoon. I am not convinced that it is as maneuverable as these two, if you can please provide a post, i will highly appreciate. As far as a-g capabilities are concerned, Rafale is in the same league, and also is a far superior a-a fighter.
Don't you think SH has way less advantages compared to europeans?
As far is cost is concerned, i believe, if we are willing to shell out huge amount of cash,which we are, we should just go for the best and not worry about the rest!

 

[samika]

F 16 is out of the race because it has already been offered to Pakistan, (18 block 52), And yes they are as perfect as Americans in flying f 16s so what's the point buying it.

 

[desiman]

Sir, ToT and EUM are not small points that can be ignored. Isn't it better to choose Europe, where there are lessor doubts and more transparency? The big RCS and less maneuverability are clear disadvantages over Rafale and Typhoon. I am not convinced that it is as maneuverable as these two, if you can please provide a post, i will highly appreciate. As far as a-g capabilities are concerned, Rafale is in the same league, and also is a far superior a-a fighter.
Don't you think SH has way less advantages compared to European fighters?
As far is cost is concerned, i believe, if we are willing to shell out huge amount of cash,which we are, we should just go for the best and not worry about the rest!

The combat-proven F/A-18 Hornet is the first tactical aircraft designed from its inception to carry out both air-to-air and air-to-ground missions. The F/A-18, (models A, B, C and D), can deliver conventional air-to-air, air-to-ground decoy expendables, and can carry airborne control pods for various missions. The combination of excellent thrust-to-weight ratio, and maneuverability an unmatched combat capability. The F/A-18 has a digital control-by-wire flight control system which provides excellent handling qualities, and allows pilots to learn to fly the airplane with relative ease. At the same time, this system provides exceptional maneuverability and allows the pilot to concentrate on operating the weapons system. A solid thrust-to-weight ratio and superior turn characteristics combined with energy sustainability, enable the F/A-18 to hold its own against any adversary. The power to maintain evasive action is what many pilots consider the Hornet's finest trait. In addition, the F/A-18 was also the Navy's first tactical jet aircraft to incorporate a digital, MUX bus architecture for the entire system's avionics suite. The benefit of this design feature is that the F/A-18 has been relatively easy to upgrade on a regular, affordable basis. One can say that the benchmark for Maneuverability is the F-22 or the SU series. The Typhoon and Rafale look amazing for sure on paper, they are not yet war proven and the export has been minimal. Yes we have money but that does not mean we spend it on the most expensive toys even when the cost is not justified yet. The F-18 will go a long way into solidifying Indo-US relations and open many more doors for us. In terms of parts availability and maintenance records, no one even comes close to the Americans. The F-18 is very rugged and requires minimal work and has a excellent availability ratio. Again the TOT and EUM is have not been disclosed yet so I cannot comment on them, but I am sure official at Boeing will push for the best deal possible. Keep in mind this is worth well over $10 billion, Im sure United States will give us “Some Exceptions” to get this money. In terms of RCS, our MKI arnt very kind of the radar also, we do not need to concentrate that much on stealth on the MRCA deal as the PAKFA and MCA will fill that gap for us. I hope i answered everything, feel free to ask more.

 

[KEETARP]

Choosing the F-16 would be by my thinking a real disaster for the mrca deal as it would offer nothing new to us. The enemy would know how to counter it efficiently and the jet itself is on its way out of the USAF. The F-16 itself is a credible jet and the block being offered to India is quite nice but its not offering anything that substantial to choose it over the F-18 which are still being inducted by the American to replace their F-14's. Again i have nothing against the F-16 but nothing going for it also.

Buddy, why do guys ignore F16, bcoz enemy would know the secrets- I dont buy this B.S
Even china has su30 but still we pride- mki is our frontline fighter.
We will get f16IN which will be more advanced than any other block-
just look at the Ew suite,Targetting pods,Radar US is offering us
Regarding TOT - If government can get its diplomatic move rt ,US will clear all sensitive tech(when they are offering P8i+E3d awacs latest tech which even USN dosent have- i see no problem at all)
Just hook up all Israel's weapons Python-5 etc +Amraam and you have a perfect friend to mki.

by the way does anyone has Janes;s subscription
I have free registration scheme only- there is some surprising news regarding MRCA radar selection --Help plz

 

[DMLA]

I agree that F-16 should be considered seriously. Though I am not sure about its chances. It makes a lot of sense to have F-16IN's in IAF and do aggressor training (the same way PLAAF & IAF do with their flankers)! However, I have my resevations about buying an aircraft which is well past its prime! Eurocanards IMO are the best bet at this stage!

 

[a state of trance]

I think cost of eurofighter is its biggest disadvantage, perhaps if it doesn't win(which i hope should not happen ), the IAF could perhaps go for a few squadrons of it, you dont want to loose hand on this fighter.
What say?

 

[KEETARP]

I think cost of eurofighter is its biggest disadvantage, perhaps if it doesn't win(which i hope should not happen ), the IAF could perhaps go for a few squadrons of it, you dont want to loose hand on this fighter.
What say?

Buddy this is not a continental dinner , have a taste of everything.
Whatever jet is chosen - All of them are a class apart machines, any of them chosen will serve our country very well.
It makes sense to have all from same vendor - Training+Maintenance depo of even 36 jets will cost more than 10 billions, and above that you are talking of 2 different jets .

 

[a state of trance]

Buddy this is not a continental dinner , have a taste of everything.
Whatever jet is chosen - All of them are a class apart machines, any of them chosen will serve our country very well.
It makes sense to have all from same vendor - Training+Maintenance depo of even 36 jets will cost more than 10 billions, and above that you are talking of 2 different jets .

Just my thought i think it would be great having Su-30 MKI and eurofighter typhoon in the same colours.

 

[KEETARP]

Just my thought i think it would be great having Su-30 MKI and eurofighter typhoon in the same colours.

YOU MEANT LIKE THIS

 

[Hulk]

Day by day I am confused (being civilian), apart from MIG 35/Grippen everything is possible.

 

[a state of trance]

That is one fine picture. Love su-30 and eurofighter both are lethal and sexy.

 

[Dash]

I agree that F-16 should be considered seriously. Though I am not sure about its chances. It makes a lot of sense to have F-16IN's in IAF and do aggressor training (the same way PLAAF & IAF do with their flankers)! However, I have my resevations about buying an aircraft which is well past its prime! Eurocanards IMO are the best bet at this stage!

I dont think F16 chould be considered actually.
The reason being F16 being an outdated airframe. You can bet on its avionics, however any of these jets which come to us whould eb able to serve us for 30 years minumum.

China and India operate Su30 and bought these at the same time, so both are in the learning phase of mastering it. however pak is using it since 80s and they know better.
So you cant buy some plane where your adversary knows the plane better than you know.

 

[KEETARP]

Day by day I am confused (being civilian), apart from MIG 35/Grippen everything is possible.

Bro dont get impatient - Defence deals take time and day by day every company will offer more for same price.
Look from where we started and now what we will get from each of them.
Russia- mig29m to mig35
France- mirage to rafale std 3
Europe-EUrobird to now tranche3
US- f16 block52 to block70 in
Did you hear abt new F18 global offer to india,Brazil,Japan
sweden- gripen to gripen ng in
Same thing Brazil has learned- and believe me After visit of Brazil's defence minister to india- ie by 25 march or so -
Brazil's winner will be decided by end of march - and probably that will clear out some things abt indian mrca also.
My feeling is it will coincide by deal of TEJASmk2 engine also.

 

[sancho]

Exact TOT details will never be revealed until the final decision comes out, I cannot answer that yet as no one how the last offer after the price negotiations will look like.

But we can compare it with the offeres of the vendors that was reported in public and from similar competitions like Brazil.
The Rafale, the Mig and the EF are officially offered with full ToT, Gripen NG might only provide full ToT if EF is out, or the US provides agree to engine ToT, no US Gov, or Boeing/LM official has ever stated similar ammount of ToT for India, or Brazil. In Brazil the president and defense minister stated openly, that the ToT offer of F18SH was increased, but still is not comparable.

I am sure the end user Monitoring agreements will be written specifically for India. Do you think Boeing would plan to loose the Indian Market by putting in a restrictive EUM agreement ? lol I don’t think so

Exactly there is the problem! Not Boeing decides about ToT, EMU, or source codes, but the US Gov and they didn't even provide these things to close alleys (no source codes of F35 for UK, one of the major issus at that program now). Boeing is also ready to sell F18SH Growlers to export customers, but the US Gov won't!

- no customization – wrong – as quoted in defence industry daily

Modifying with other US techs is not customising, I mean Indian, or western techs and weapons like we did with MKI.

this depends on the MOD on what type of jet they want. Yes bigger RCS but also LESS cost. The MKI is also a redesigned upgrade- I don’t see anyone complaining

Because it improved IAF capabilities of that time dramatically, now with AWACS all around us, low RCS is very important and that is the Achilles' heel of the MKI. Altough the F18SH will have a lower RCS than the MKI, most of the other contenders offers advantages in that area.

not true, as maneuverable as any of the others except the MIG 35. But it compensates by bringing much more to the table than that

Can you explain how? It offers no TVC, no canards, has most likely the least t/w ratio and also the least G load:

F18SH:
Design load factor 7.6g

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/fa18ef/docs/EF_overview.pdf

Rafale:
Load +9g/-3.2g

Aircraft Characteristics

EF:
G'' limits +9/-3 ''g''

Eurofighter Typhoon - Design

So is the Typhoon, Griphen, to an extent the Rafale.

Not exactly, the Rafale will use the same weapons all the upgraded Mirage 2000 can use, maybe even the weapon that the upgraded Jags will use, if they are European. Gripen NG is totally open, they even offered integration of Russian weapons to us, for more commonality. EF at least might have some commonality to Jags on the weapon side, but also highly rely on US weapons of course.

The fact of the matter is that the F-35 can be bought with or without going for the F-16. Keep in mind the F-18 operates from all major US navy carriers.

That's what I said, F18SH will be good enough for now, but the Indian carriers it might be meant for, come only at the end of the decade and with F35C on offer, the F18SH makes no real sense if IN wants a US fighter. But USN will replace nearly all of them with F35, which should tell us about the future of F18SH as a carrier fighter, don't you think?

Once again, I don't say F18SH in general is a bad fighter, but it is not the aircraft itself that makes it interesting, because the design is only slighty improved to the older one. The interesting parts are the US weapon pack (although PAF will have exactly the same) and the radar, or avionics, but will this be enough to buy this fighter to serve in IAF for the next 3 decades? And how can our industry improve, if we remain a simple buyer of F18SH, can't integrate indigenous developed techs and weapons, won't get useful ToT of radar, or avionics?
I think this makes the long term advantage of F18SH for us questionable or?

 

[sancho]

Buddy, why do guys ignore F16, bcoz enemy would know the secrets- I dont buy this B.S
Even china has su30 but still we pride- mki is our frontline fighter.

Mate, if you compare F16 B52 of PAF and F16IN on offer for us, the only advantage would be a bit more radar range (which is useless if PAF gets all ordered AWACS inducted), a bit more thrust and possibly a better EWS. So in BVR these fighters won't make any decisive advantage over the other and in WVR it will turn more even equal, if not better for them! They know all the advantages and disadvantages of that fighter through decades of experience and even if they have slighty less trust and maybe not such a good EWS, their chances to shoot F16IN down are very good! So why consider a fighter that offer only minimal advantages?

Btw, you can't compare it with MKI and China, because MKI was customised version especially for our needs and with TVC, canards, western avionics + Bars radar offers way more advantages over comparable Su 30 MKK.