India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

[DMLA]

Too bad India didn't go for the SU-35 it's a better A2A fighter but i guess India's requirements is a dual seat multi role.

IAF has a well thought out plan for periodic upgrades for Su-30. These will cover the entire lifecycle at 15 year intervals. The first upgrade is due already and there are a number of upgrade paths which IAF would be looking at. Though all I know of are the upgrade options sukhoi has been showing at air shows, I am confident that once they happen, mki will become even better! It makes sense to have across the board commonality with these birds!

Some of things reported (upgrades) include internal bays, new composite skin sections, new cockpit avionics, new radar, new weapons, etc.

 

[DMLA]

3 billion for 42 of these jets.

If india is ready to shed out 70 miilion on a single su30, (even if it includes weapons)
whats hampering to purchase Rafale at 120 million.
Also makes me worry FGFA/PAK-FA will come at 100+ price tag

IMO, the only thing that may stop IAF from choosing an aircraft would be everything other than price. All the birds in question can be acquired at aprox $100 million per aircraft. Ofcourse the whole package may cost a lot more (even $160-180 million/ aircraft is possible)!

 

[NSG_BlackCats]

So was I, just quoted you to get ur opinon and the one you quoted at once. So don't take it as a offence!

Mate, I did not take it as an offence at all.

No, MoD officially stated that the full deal will go only to a single vendor! Search the MMRCA thread, I posted a source sometimes.

How many times MoD has changed their decision after trails are over and deals are in final phase? Delay in artillery modernization program and recent scraping of airbus refueling tanker are examples. So let’s see what comes up after the deal is signed.

For Russia, but as far as the actual stage of development is, these will not have the NG AL 41 engine, but "only" the S117, wonder if IAF would go for this version, if at all. I still have some doubts about that, because it would make the whole doctrine with main fighter must be twin seat config useless right? As long as no contract is signed, or an official MoD member announce this, I will remain sceptical about Pak Fa.

You are free to be skeptical about PAK-FA and FGFA joining IAF in 2020. But I am optimistic that IAF would have a squadron of PAK-FA by 2018. So I hope you will give me that liberty. As far as current reports, IAF going for 50 PAK-FA and 200 FGFA.

We also know that the engine deal for MK2 is for 100+50 optional, so I only take these 190 as possible for IAF, till other reliable sources say something else, but of course it will also remain on HAL and the production rate.

Have HAL declared the engine for LCA-MK2? I do not think the deal has been finalized. I do not want to count my chicken before they are hatched. HAL’s track record in meeting deadline is well known. So, as of now, 40 LCA for me. When HAL is ready with first test flight of LCA- MK2, I will talk about that.

Different class yes, but they use the same weapons and are even more capable in the strike role than the Migs. MKI also replaced all Mig 23 squads as far as I know.

If any platform fires the same weapons are they same? What about the radar, airframe, avionics, range, and weight etc? By replacing if you mean replacing squadron number then you are right. But SU-30 MKI is altogether and way above mig27 and mig23.

The MiG-23UMs , the two seater variants of the Ground Attack and Interceptor units will have a continued innings, thanks to their role as type-trainers with the MiG-27 Units.

Thanks for the information mate.

Planed yes, but delays in its development causes MRCA and later MMRCA. The interceptor role will most likely go to LCA of course, but the replacement in numbers, will be Bisons => MMRCA.

LCA when it comes by 2012-13 will replace existing mig21 and BISONs. Again MRCA (which plane comes) would be much capable than Mig21 and BISONs. Agree due to the delay MRCA is coming in. But it was never supposed to replace mig21 or BISONs. It will enhance the fire power of IAF .

 

[KEETARP]

IAF has a well thought out plan for periodic upgrades for Su-30. These will cover the entire lifecycle at 15 year intervals. The first upgrade is due already and there are a number of upgrade paths which IAF would be looking at. Though all I know of are the upgrade options sukhoi has been showing at air shows, I am confident that once they happen, mki will become even better! It makes sense to have across the board commonality with these birds!

Some of things reported (upgrades) include internal bays, new composite skin sections, new cockpit avionics, new radar, new weapons, etc.

I doubt internal weapons bay+new skin/composites -
New composites would mean tearing apart airframe
My guess is

NEW COCKPIT
NEW AVIONICS
MAY BE NEW ENGINE- but i doubt supercruise which su35 has
NEW RADAR
OLS/IRST-???? would be nice to have ols35 of su35

 

[NSG_BlackCats]

Wrong, yet again. LCA was supposed to replace, which failed to make it on time, which is why MMRCA was considered as an option to replace Aging Mig 21.

That what mentioned LCA was supposed to replace mig21 and BISONs. Am I wrong??

When LCA comes in by 2012-13, what will it replace mig29/mig27/Jaguar/SU30MKI?

MRCA will come only by 2013/14. Do not know by that how many of mig21 will be there in IAF.

Again MRCA (which plane comes) would be much capable than Mig21 and BISONs. Agree due to the delay MRCA is coming in. But it was never supposed to replace mig21 or BISONs. It will enhance the fire power of IAF.

 

[DMLA]

I doubt internal weapons bay+new skin/composites -
New composites would mean tearing apart airframe
My guess is

NEW COCKPIT
NEW AVIONICS
MAY BE NEW ENGINE- but i doubt supercruise which su35 has
NEW RADAR
OLS/IRST-???? would be nice to have ols35 of su35

Replacing skin sections is not a big deal. I remember IAF mig-29's got similar upgrade when they had their upgrades done in India a few years ago. It makes sense specially where fatigue is an issue and skin sections need replacement anyway!

Internal weapons was reported by indian and russian media if I remember correctly. Though I agree that it makes no sense at all! I doubt they will get new engines with this MLU. The IAF is pretty happy with Su-30's TWR and performance. Moreover Koraput had signed the deal for all replacement engines as well so unless the deal is changed, we won't see new engines. Moreover, addition of composites will surely reduce weight! I agree that an OLS change is possible more so due to their loss in performance with time/ exposure. Similarly it is possible to incorporate L band radars (slot arrays similar to secondary PAKFA radars) for su-30 as was shown in MAKS 2009. However, I am not sure if these are warranted at this stage. Maybe the next MLU will have engines, OLS, etc!

 

[KEETARP]

How will it stack up against F15E-silent eagle
SU30 MKI SMT vs F15 SE
Any guesses
F15 se is my fav plane of all times - i doubt anything can overwhelm that except f22

 

[Kinshuk]

That what mentioned LCA was supposed to replace mig21 and BISONs. Am I wrong??

When LCA comes in by 2012-13, what will it replace mig29/mig27/Jaguar/SU30MKI?

MRCA will come only by 2013/14. Do not know by that how many of mig21 will be there in IAF.

Again MRCA (which plane comes) would be much capable than Mig21 and BISONs. Agree due to the delay MRCA is coming in. But it was never supposed to replace mig21 or BISONs. It will enhance the fire power of IAF.

India is already short of sqds, we are at 29 sqd whereas our sanctioned limit is 39 or 42. So it doesn't matter if we are going to replace Migs with MMRCA or LCA. We need both of them to increase the no of SQD. I only said that the MRCA was put forward because of delays in LCA, before India had approached france for 126 Mirage but the production line was already closed because of which, the competition is now among six contendors. I see no reason now for france to loose, as Mirage upgrade is also underway now, which has become stigma in many minds in India.

Thanks.

 

[gubbi]

Replacing skin sections is not a big deal. I remember IAF mig-29's got similar upgrade when they had their upgrades done in India a few years ago. It makes sense specially where fatigue is an issue and skin sections need replacement anyway!

Moreover, addition of composites will surely reduce weight!

Wouldn't that screw the CG of the plane requiring extensive redesigning or in this case balancing the off weights AND changes in control computers to stabilize the aircraft?
How was this taken care of in the case of MiG-29 upgrades?

Similarly it is possible to incorporate L band radars (slot arrays similar to secondary PAKFA radars) for su-30 as was shown in MAKS 2009.

Why would this particular aircraft need the L-band radars? How does it fit with the aircraft's role as defined by IAF doctrine? What would be use of these radars in the subcontinent where none has nor will have LO aircraft in the near future?

BTW, doesnt Su-30MKI already have OLS? Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Kinshuk]

How will it stack up against F15E-silent eagle
SU30 MKI SMT vs F15 SE
Any guesses
F15 se is my fav plane of all times - i doubt anything can overwhelm that except f22

Why ask lame question? F 15 se vs MKI will never have to happen.

And Typhoon can kick its butt in A2A.

 

[gen x]

That what mentioned LCA was supposed to replace mig21 and BISONs. Am I wrong??

When LCA comes in by 2012-13, what will it replace mig29/mig27/Jaguar/SU30MKI?

MRCA will come only by 2013/14. Do not know by that how many of mig21 will be there in IAF.

Again MRCA (which plane comes) would be much capable than Mig21 and BISONs. Agree due to the delay MRCA is coming in. But it was never supposed to replace mig21 or BISONs. It will enhance the fire power of IAF.

well Indian air force want to increase its numbers against china

 

[DMLA]

Wouldn't that screw the CG of the plane requiring extensive redesigning or in this case balancing the off weights AND changes in control computers to stabilize the aircraft?
How was this taken care of in the case of MiG-29 upgrades?

Why would this particular aircraft need the L-band radars? How does it fit with the aircraft's role as defined by IAF doctrine? What would be use of these radars in the subcontinent where none has nor will have LO aircraft in the near future?

BTW, doesnt Su-30MKI already have OLS? Correct me if I am wrong.

To answer your first question, most modern aircrafts use digital fly by wire control (morphed slowly from intelligent flight control system). The control loop makes use of aircraft sensors to fly the aircraft which makes stability a non issue (for example the aircrafts might be fitted with different weapons with different weights / pylon which would be catered to by fbw. Similarly the loss of engine thrust can also be catered for).
Specific to the question of cg, the most common technique used is fuel volume control. There are a number of fuel tanks in the aircraft (sections) which are interconnected and the control loop involves automatic movement of fuel from one to another during flight to maintain stability trim (if that is indeed what is desired).

Note: All this comes under the perview of Autostabilization which is an integral part of all modern aircrafts.

with regard to your second question, in my post I mentioned all of them as "possible" upgrades and then went on to say that I don't feel these are required at this stage (and thus talked about the second MLU 10-15 years from now) when there could be a wider proliferation of VLO aircrafts in the region.

I hope I have made it clear!

edit: just saw your question about the OLS. Of course mki has the OLS-30. There are better OLS systems from NIIP (mig-35 & su-35). For example: OLS-35 is said to have 40-50% range advantage over OLS-30. It is also said to have multiple IR frequency track capability. But again as I said (in my previous post) that we may see these upgrades only with the 2nd MLU. By then we will surely have much better systems as well.

 

[Moscow]

total ordered su30mki is such

230-2+50+42 = ?... guess

the 230 is whats being built now....it will be upgraded in 2017
50 will be block 3 su30 MKI with upgrades to radar and some other tech
42 built by IRkust plant a totally new plane with total new package 4.5++ gen much advanced than the su 35 bm incorporating technologies from 5th gen developed by IRKUST

people here dont know that SU30MKI is an irkust product and SU3BM and PAKFA are Knappo product both have individual priorities and friendly competition under sukhoi umbrella

this 42 aircraft contract to be signed by june july 2010, cost is 3.5 billions thats almost 100 million a plane its advanced version with major upgrades , indian officials had a look at the new model...in irkust plant late last year


either you can trust me or take it as bluff because i cannot give you links there arnt any ...


also 50 pakfa wont come by 2016 but 2018 and FGFA is a different plane based on the pakfa flight trials in 2016 development also next 5 years from then ... pakfa and fgfa is not just 1 seat 2 seat variant as news mentions it but two different planes with major differences based on a similar<not same> design

A Russian-Indian fifth-generation fighter jet could be developed by 2015-2016, a Russian defense industry official said on Tuesday.
Moscow and New Delhi are expected to sign a contract on a joint development of the new fighter in the near future, focusing on the design concept and technical requirements put forward by India.
"I hope that we will be able to build a joint fifth-generation aircraft in the next five to six years. It is a time-consuming and complex project," said Alexander Fomin, first deputy head of the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation.
The new aircraft will be most likely based on Russia's T-50 prototype fifth-generation fighter, which has already made two test flights and is expected to join the Russian Air Force in 2015.
India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) was reported to be seeking a 25&#37; share in design and development in the project.
Fomin said the fighter for the Indian Air Force could incorporate several integrated on-board systems developed by third parties.
"The integration is good because we will not have to invent a bicycle and can use the things that our neighbors already have, but it is also a difficult task because we will have to combine all the elements in a unified system," the official said.
The new fighter for the Indian Air Force is expected to feature a two-seat cockpit, advanced electronics and could be armed with BrahMos supersonic missiles.
Russia has been developing its fifth-generation fighter since the 1990s. The current prototype, known as the T-50, was designed by the Sukhoi design bureau and built at a plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, in Russia's Far East.
Russian officials have already hailed the fighter as "a unique warplane" that combines the capabilities of an air superiority fighter and attack aircraft.
MOSCOW, March 2 (RIA Novosti)

thanks

due course of time you will hear a big news regarding mig-35

 

[Chanakyaa]

total ordered su30mki is such

230-2+50+42 = ?... guess

the 230 is whats being built now....it will be upgraded in 2017
50 will be block 3 su30 MKI with upgrades to radar and some other tech
42 built by IRkust plant a totally new plane with total new package 4.5++ gen much advanced than the su 35 bm incorporating technologies from 5th gen developed by IRKUST

people here dont know that SU30MKI is an irkust product and SU3BM and PAKFA are Knappo product both have individual priorities and friendly competition under sukhoi umbrella

this 42 aircraft contract to be signed by june july 2010, cost is 3.5 billions thats almost 100 million a plane its advanced version with major upgrades , indian officials had a look at the new model...in irkust plant late last year


either you can trust me or take it as bluff because i cannot give you links there arnt any ...


also 50 pakfa wont come by 2016 but 2018 and FGFA is a different plane based on the pakfa flight trials in 2016 development also next 5 years from then ... pakfa and fgfa is not just 1 seat 2 seat variant as news mentions it but two different planes with major differences based on a similar<not same> design
thanks

i agree with the mki numbers ; probably we'll have 300+ mki now by 2020.

 

[saurabh]

due course of time you will hear a big news regarding mig-35

Dont keep us waiting, what is it??!!