India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[sancho]

The battle to sell fighter aircraft

Ivan Gale
Jun 27, 2011

"Incredible India" is the title of a ubiquitous advertising campaign that promises surprises around every corner, and the motto certainly applies to the country's ongoing fighter jet competition.

The American favourites, Lockheed Martin's F-16 and Boeing's F-18, were eliminated from the race after extensive trials.

But lesser-known jet fighters on the international export market, the French-made Dassault Rafale and the pan-European Eurofighter Typhoon, remain in the running...

..."Fighter jet sales are always, always political matters," says Eric Trappier, the executive vice president for international business at Dassault Aviation.

Europe's success so far in the Indian market just may underscore the feeling that when it comes to defence sales, sometimes it is good not to be from the US.

Charles Edelstenne, the president of Dassault Aviation, says countries are wary of relying too much on the US, whose arms sales are heavily influenced by American policy towards the politics of potential buyers, leaving nations vulnerable if the American political landscape is changed by congressional elections.

"India's aircraft policy is not to put all eggs in one basket - and that basket is the American basket," says Mr Edelstenne, noting that India is already planning to spend billions of dollars on military cargo planes and helicopters from the US company Boeing.

"Even if a country receives promise of support from the US president, that doesn't guarantee you anything at all.

"The power is in the Congress, and at any time, the Congress can change its mind, and they can decide to block armaments, spare parts, whatever they want," Mr Edelstenne says.

By contrast, Dassault and France "stay neutral", Mr Edelstenne says. "We do not have the willingness to decide on the foreign policy of our buyer. It is their policy, not ours," he says.

In other cases, countries often chafe at the restrictions placed on exported US technology, or the lengthy approvals process required by the US government.

In a recent interview on the forum , a Pakistani F-16 fighter pilot spoke of the lengths to which the US goes to keep its technology a secret from countries such as China.

"They have put digital seals [on] all the sensitive technologies, which can only be opened via a code, which only they know," the pilot says....

Full: The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


Again, it was the right decision to go with Europeans in MMRCA, now we just have to choose the right once!

 

[SpArK]

Full: The battle to sell fighter aircraft - The National


Again, it was the right decision to go with Europeans in MMRCA, now we just have to choose the right once!

Right one should be that fighter ,oops... i forgot its name , it starts with the letter R.


Nope its not Raptor.. i mean the one among the last 2 short listed.

 

[Jon Snow]

yes, the eft has only dropped a few lgbs in libya but anything more would have been an overkill.......also what most people here are missing is the fact that the eft's being used are the tranche 2 ones while we are offered the tranch 3 which will have much better a2g capabilities- like stormshadow etc....... Libya basically has shown the combat readiness of the eft with it doing missions lasting 6-9 hrs and averaging 84 hrs a month despite there being a spares shortage....

 

[luckyyy]

Rafale News: Eurofighter very touchy after Rafale team claims superiority

It seems that the trench war has begun between the Eurofigter and Rafale teams. The Eurofighter web site is trying to dicard the Dassault and Thales claims stating that the European consortium was a "cooperation of incompetencies" and that the Selex AESA radar was 5 years behing the the RBE-2AESA :

.

EADS is almost 15 times bigger then Dassault in terms of annual revenues , it's just a funny statement that AESA won't be available on time..

 

[sancho]

yes, the eft has only dropped a few lgbs in libya but anything more would have been an overkill.......also what most people here are missing is the fact that the eft's being used are the tranche 2 ones while we are offered the tranch 3 which will have much better a2g capabilities- like stormshadow etc...

So in your opinion, having a useful CAS weaponary, beeing able to do recon and deep penetration missions would be an overkill? Also, the T3A, that the EF partners ordered has not cleared any new weapon so far. The only new that are now under integrated are newer Paveway 2 versions and the Paveway 4 LGBs.

EADS is almost 15 times bigger then Dassault in terms of annual revenues , it's just a funny statement that AESA won't be available on time..

Just that neither EADS, nor Dassault are the developing companies for the AESAs and even the EF consortium itself states that it is planed for 2015 only, so not available on time according MMRCA RFP.

 

[luckyyy]

Actually you are wrong.... the real fact is EFT's cockpit is generation ahead of Rafale... Rafale is jack of all trades.. it has everything but nothing outclasses(everything fits into Indian requirement).. but EFT is ahead in certain area(especially cockpit) but needs time and fund to improve or outclass Rafale considerably

how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..

 

[kingdurgaking]

how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..

MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...

because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat

 

[luckyyy]

how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..

also , the libyan mission of rafale is over rates..
just look at these figures :
in 3 months rafale has made 700 sorties in which it fired/drop just
• 10 Scalps.
• 182 AASM bombs.
• 116 GBU.

that means they only fire/drop one missile/bomd in every two missions...
it says 300 sorties were recce , does it means they firing/droping one missile/bomd after every recce sortie ,

you can't go wrong if you have to fire/drop just one missile/bomb getting information after each recce sortie ...

Rafale News: Libya, Rafale stats
do we realy say that there is a war happening in libya ?

 

[luckyyy]

MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...

because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat

how much MICA cost against R-77 ?

and in modern scenario with EWS/missile-jamming on board , the gun battles are even more likly then in last dacade..

 

[kingdurgaking]

how does Rafale going to perform in air combat mission , i think that's the main area of performence of a fighter aircraft , othewise you can put those A2G missiles and EWS etc even on a boeying 747..

also , the libyan mission of rafale is over rates..
just look at these figures :
in 3 months rafale has made 700 sorties in which it fired/drop just
• 10 Scalps.
• 182 AASM bombs.
• 116 GBU.

that means they only fire/drop one missile/bomd in every two missions...
it says 300 sorties were recce , does it means they firing/droping one missile/bomd after every recce sortie ,

you can't go wrong if you have to fire/drop just one missile/bomb getting information after each recce sortie ...

Rafale News: Libya, Rafale stats
do we realy say that there is a war happening in libya ?

Actually the logic is this way... the NATO are flying to deny Air space and attack the targets which kills the civilian... It is not necessary all the time you fly you have to do bombing.. there is a high likely that in most of the mission you fly to do the above parameters and you return unsuccessful because the targets are not there...

 

[luckyyy]

Actually the logic is this way... the NATO are flying to deny Air space and attack the targets which kills the civilian... It is not necessary all the time you fly you have to do bombing.. there is a high likely that in most of the mission you fly to do the above parameters and you return unsuccessful because the targets are not there...

the point is even after 3 months they are unsuccessful !!
US takes just 15 days to extablish a absolute air superioty over iraq , and iraq had better systems then libya....

 

[rockstarIN]

MICA is a very beautiful missile... If you understand this is one of the best missile like Derby.. while Derby can lock on after launch which is more advantage...like Derby MICA can be used both in WVR as well BVR.. Not sure AIM-120 or Meteor or R-77 or Astra can do that way...

because when the enemy comes in WVR range the BVR's above will become useless whereas you can still employ MICA... and you know Missile will win war not the machine... until it comes to the gun battle level.. In modern scenario gun battles will happen 1 in 10 combat

AFAIK BVR missiles can be utilised in WVR range too as they will get a lock on by themselves by onboard sensors in their kill zones.

 

[Jon Snow]

the point is even after 3 months they are unsuccessful !!
US takes just 15 days to extablish a absolute air superioty over iraq , and iraq had better systems then libya....

Are you saying that the french or british dont have air superiority??
the whole point of getting air superiority is so that you can do a2g missions without interference from enemy fighters..... and you wont find a single libyan fighter in the skies....

 

[kingdurgaking]

AFAIK BVR missiles can be utilised in WVR range too as they will get a lock on by themselves by onboard sensors in their kill zones.

As far as i know they cant.. most of them have minimum range... below which they cant.. if you have more information please post it...

@Lucky...
Jamming is there.. but consider some missile like R-77 where it homme into the source of jamming...

 

[rockstarIN]

As far as i know they cant.. most of them have minimum range... below which they cant.. if you have more information please post it...

...

Once Chogy(Ex-USAF F-15 Pilot) stated in PDF that if he tails his enemy fighter in a desert conditions, he would choose ARMRAAM over AIM-9 coz of the conditions..