India selects EF, Rafale for MMRCA shortlist

[Ignited Mind]

Can never trust French..

Well, for that matter, you cannot trust anyone. But, hey, at the end of the day you have to buy from someone, don't you?

However, the thing is, you should also be busy in developing your own indigenous core expertise in these critical technologies, side by side.

Keep doing the business with them but also develop your own thing.

And our very own DRDO wants foreign assistance in that very 'own thing'.

 

[MST]

A2G is the need of the hour (doctrine) and everybody agrees Raffy scores on that above EFT also not to forget the massive weapons load along with 5 wet points which even the Su-30 MKI's dont have.. not to talk about the range...

Im sure the newer engine will be more maintainable and would shut up the thrust talks...

After all France is the nation which produces the fastest and most powerful production car in the world in Bugatti Veyron

Bugatti is owned by the Germans (volkswagen Group) and Bugatti Veyron is designed by the Volkswagen. Its only manufactured in France.

OT: The non selection of F18 was a surprise but the selection of the two was expected. Looks like IAF is focused on performance primarily Air to Air and then anything else and thats why in spite of all the political negativity of Eurofighter it has a very good chance of slipping under Rafale and getting selected.

 

[jagjitnatt]

A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link.

Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

 

[satishkumarcsc]

A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link.

Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Well i think a few additions can be made

1. Typhoon was envisaged as an air-superiority fighter but the Rafale is designed as multi-role ground up.
2. Typhoon and Rafale have both canards designedd to prevent auto-rotation which is very common in delta designs
3. Why France pulled out of the EFT programme?
4. The MMI in both the aircrafts and the complexity.
5. The engine power of the EJ 200 is higher than the M-88-2 but both Rafale and the EFT having similar TWR.

 

[sancho]

^^^^ Hoppingly Rafale wins the deal...

Can we have some light whether we will GaN module or GaS module with Rafale?.... Hoping Sancho or some one will throw light....

Not with the initial MMRCA batch, because that is a development for the next batch 5 upgrade, planed around 2018:

Here are possible future upgrade solutions for the Rafale, once posted in the key forum:

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Rafale News IX

Forget LCA, Kaveri will never power LCA even with upgraded thrust..It will be used in AMCA only when DRDO gets its acts together because IAF is not impressed by this JV DRDO is proposing with Snecma and wants a complete indian powerplant for next indigenous fighter..

I guess you mean GTRE, because they develop Kaveri engine and the GE 404 on LCA MK1 has 85kN AB thrust @ 1036Kg, while Kaveri - Snecma engine is planed with 90kN or more @ around the same, or even less weight of the GE engine. The advantage of replacing them with Kaveri - Snecma engine should be pretty clear, especially if there are already developments with the French for TVC.

Read between the lines, Benny. That's exactly what the IAF is objecting about. Take your time.

Isn't more than a decade not enough? They provenly failed in the engine development and remaining just on hope is simply silly, especially if there is an aim on exporting the fighter. For any export sale we would need US approval and ask the Brazilians for example how deals must be scrapped because their aircrafts had US engines it it. Not to mention that South America would be a potential market for Tejas!

Bugatti is owned by the Germans (volkswagen Group) and Bugatti Veyron is designed by the Volkswagen. Its only manufactured in France.

True they belong to Volkswagen, but they did not the design, that is clearly French, while much of the techs, especially the 1001HP engine has made in Germany stamps on it, just like Lamborghini btw.

 

[bhagat]

Tech Offers Shape India's Jet Picks

Tech Offers Shape India's Jet Picks - Defense News

 

[drunken-monke]

Thats interesting info.

Is it true - i mean you have any sources - or just made that up after watching Pearl Harbor ?



That was in 1971 when USS Enterprise entered the BoB. and btw in 1962 US helped us against China - only the help reached a bit late to change the outcome of the war.

Hahaha, Pearl harbor no not at all.

I was having a chat with my grandpa few years back, and he told me that this was the plan of IAF.. Although there is no supporting file I couldn't found out on internet. By the way this has been told to me when I was quite young, in year 1992-93 i suppose.

 

[jha]

I guess you mean GTRE, because they develop Kaveri engine and the GE 404 on LCA MK1 has 85kN AB thrust @ 1036Kg, while Kaveri - Snecma engine is planed with 90kN or more @ around the same, or even less weight of the GE engine. The advantage of replacing them with Kaveri - Snecma engine should be pretty clear, especially if there are already developments with the French for TVC.

Yes..I meant GTRE... I was talking about LCA Mk-II , which even upgraded Kaveri will not be able to power.
It will be interesting to know how much tweaking will the airframe need once Kaveri replaces GE-404..

 

[sancho]

A brief analysis of Typhoon vs Rafale can be found on IndianDefence.com which is PDF's sister site. Here's a link.

Eurofighter Typhoon v/s Dassault Rafale - Analysis

Interesting, but I have some issues if you don't mind:

The Rafale isn't as radical as the Typhoon. It uses conventional technology in its airframe. Everything about it is tried and tested. And it wouldn't be as maneuverable as Typhoon. In fact, Typhoon would be miles above Rafale when it comes to maneuverability.

The intakes on the Rafale are also conventional. They look cool but there isn't anything revolutionary about it. It isn't a bad thing, but the Typhoon takes the cake here too.

These statements are not really based on facts isn't it? Rafale airframe is made of similar amounts of composites like the EF (which makes your point on RCS not correct as well) and the hardpoint layout is a new one aimed one higher loads and it is rather one of the most impressive points of the Rafale design, how they was able to make such a small and light fighter, that is able to carry that much load ! The EF instead simply took the Mirage 2000 layout which is aimed at carrying as much AAMs as possible, but not on carrying many fuel tanks or heavy weapons:

Check the location of the missiles as well the gears:

Another unique feature are the RCS reduction mesures Dassault made by using triangular RAM materials, that are placed all over the airframe, or in the intakes. That put a high focus on scattering and absorbing radar waves, to make the fighter less observable, which also was the aim behind the very low IR signature.
So much for conventional technology.
Regarding maneuverability, Rafale is considered as better in low speed maneuvering, compared to EF, which also gives Rafale the advantages at low altitudes.

 

[sancho]

Yes..I meant GTRE... I was talking about LCA Mk-II , which even upgraded Kaveri will not be able to power.
It will be interesting to know how much tweaking will the airframe need once Kaveri replaces GE-404..

The same that I said about Kaveri - Snecma and GE 404, fits to a comparison to the GE 414 as well, because the latter has a way higher weight, around 1100Kg, so even if the K10 gets only 90kN (some sources expects even 95kN), if offers similar power.

 

[sancho]

Rafale vs EF comparison, based on reports, or analysises from journalists, or IAF officials, part 1 and 2

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/4347-mrca-news-discussions-336.html#post1721297

 

[SpArK]

5 Questions On India's M-MRCA Elimination​

'



Shiv Aroor
Livefist
For three days, I've responded to e-mail, text messages, social media pokes and calls from many of you asking me what I thought of Wednesday's dramatic elimination in the Indian M-MRCA fighter bid. For those of you who thought I was evasive and non-commital, it was for a reason: I haven't made my mind up, and I'm not sure I will. Besides, for four days I've devoured the copious amounts of journalism that the decision has fuelled across continents and across media. As with any contentious decision that has multibillion dollar implications for big business, opinion has varied from the dumbfounded "India is f***ed" sort of thing, to vicious, melodramatic diatribes about a betrayal of Washington, to stray instances of solid sobriety that eloquently wove into consideration more threads than just the jobs, dollars and cents. What I do have is a bunch of questions that I sure as hell would like to see some discussion on. Some of them may sound rhetorical, but they're not. Some of these are questions that I've seen raised by other journalists and writers in reports published in the last few days, and are therefore quandaries I agree need to be clarified. Here's my list of 5 questions:

Q1. Can a $9.5-billion dollar airplane deal ever just be about the airplanes? Which is to say, does India expect nothing from the country that wins, above and beyond professional on-time delivery of the fighters and rock-solid after-sales support? On the other hand, what about the possibility that the elimination of the American and Russian fighters WAS a political decision?

Q2. If the European twin-engine fighters outperformed the other four contenders in field evaluations, why are there now questions over their selection? But if it is true that the margins of performance couldn't have been significant between the six contenders, did it makes sense to effect such pronounced eliminations? Does this therefore reinforce the suggestion from the first question that this WAS in fact a political decision?

Q3. Is the importance being yoked to this one contract (and the apocalyptic fall-outs being predicted in some sections) a function more of the dizzy hype that has surrounded it non-stop since 2004 than anything real? Has the mythology that engulfs the deal made it impossible to look coldly at the M-MRCA as simply a contract that meets an arithmetic IAF requirement? In turn, does the significant importance being attached to the loss of this one contract by the US belittle, demasculate and subvert the importance of other Indo-US bilateral achievements, including high value defence purchases?

Q4. Is the government, which incidentally never refuted the prevailing sense that strategic considerations would be factored into any decision (until the very end), now taking refuge in the Indian Air Force's trial recommendations as an easy offset to obvious political questions? Did something happen in the course of the selection process that forced (and if so, what) the government to shelve all "strategic factors", and complete the process wholly on merit/technical grounds if at all?

Q5. Has there been thorough transparency through every step of the selection process? If all vendors have been kept totally up to speed about their performance and compliance, and were perfectly in tune with the benchmarks (as the MoD has stated), then was last week's elimination really a surprise to those knocked out? Some of them say they expect debriefs in a transparent manner. Umm, were things not transparent before? Has the government satisfactorily shut the watertight gates of the selection process at each stage to ensure that none of its decisions along the way can be shafted later?

 

[KS]

Another unique feature are the RCS reduction mesures Dassault made by using triangular RAM materials, that are placed all over the airframe, or in the intakes. That put a high focus on scattering and absorbing radar waves, to make the fighter less observable, which also was the aim behind the very low IR signature.
So much for conventional technology.

I think this is what Sancho says ;

Look at the saw toothed formations on the lower part of the canards,wings and the air inlets ;

The advantages of this formulation apart from Lower RCS is aerodynamically this makes the air flow turbulent as surface of fuselage is rough.It helps particularly in preventing the aircraft from stalling at at high angle of attack.

 

[jdme]

Without decent pilots, all this will amount to nothing. Any chance of improving the quality of training we provide our pilots?

 

[Manas]

Without decent pilots, all this will amount to nothing. Any chance of improving the quality of training we provide our pilots?

Stop Bullsh**ing ,you already have done enough.