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India Rejects DCNS Proposal to Locally Produce API Sub Tech

ashok321

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http://www.defensenews.com/articles/india-rejects-dcns-proposal-to-locally-produce-api-sub-tech


NEW DELHI — India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) has decided not to give DCNS of France permission to develop a local, fully owned subsidiary to manufacture air-independent propulsion (AIP) submarine systems on the advice of state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), which is developing its own AIP systems, according to a senior MoD official.

DRDO had "impressed" upon the ministry that DCNS wants to bring to India the same technology that DRDO is developing, said the MoD source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

tem3c45.png

DCNS is the first overseas company to have sought clearance to invest 100 percent through FDI by setting up a fully owned subsidiary in the defense sector.

The Indian government in June this year changed the FDI laws to make it easier for overseas companies to receive permission for a 100 percent FDI in the defense sector.

However, Arun Prakash, a retired Indian Navy admiral, disagrees with the ministry's decision.

"If we keep a cool head, we should allow this (clearance of DCNS proposal) to proceed uninterrupted. This is most valuable and arcane technology, and there is a lot we can do with it in the future," Prakash said.

Bernard Buisson, the managing director of DCNS India, did not comment on the proposal's rejection, despite repeated requests.

No MoD officials would comment on the DCNS proposal; nor would they comment on whether reports of the leakage of vital data pertaining to six Scorpene submarines being produced under license by DCNS at Mumbai-based Mazagon Docks Limited (MDL) could have led to the proposal's rejection.

"I do not think cancellation of the ongoing project will solve any problem or mitigate the setback faced by the Indian Navy (because of the leak)," said Amit Cowshish, a former MoD financial adviser.

A senior Indian Navy official noted that the homemade AIP system is at a "project definition" stage, the prototype is being developed and once ready will be fitted in the last two French Scorpene submarines being built at MDL.

Early this year, DCNS had sought a license with 100 percent FDI to set up a company to undertake design and industrialization studies, research and development activities, manufacturing, and maintenance in relation to AIP systems for submarines. The DCNS proposal was deferred in March by the Foreign Investment Promotion Board, the body under the Ministry of Commerce and Industry, which assigns FDI licenses.

The Indian Navy is to float a $12 billion tender next year for the purchase of six AIP-enabled subs under Project P 75I. DCNS is aggressively chasing the program.

The tender will be given to a domestic shipyard, which in turn will tie up with an overseas company to build the six subs.


Along with DCNS, Germany's ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems, Navantia of Spain, Saab of Sweden, Rubin Design Bureau-Amur Shipyard of Russia, and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries of Japan are in the race for the program.

"DRDO fears that with DCNS getting 100 percent FDI approval then it could become easier for DCNS to sell its AIP technology for the forthcoming tender of six Submarines with AIP technology," said a senior naval analyst, who spoke on condition of anonymity.
 
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why?

Img465871125.jpg
 
. . .
so that the great at DRDO can gobble up funds in the name of R&D for next one decade.

Because of the following factor:

DRDO had "impressed" upon the ministry that DCNS wants to bring to India the same technology that DRDO is developing
why only AIP .. DRDO has more advance technology than DCNS for entire Submarine .. but the foreign product loving .. traitor armed forces forced GOI to purchase from french.

Good that we are learning from our mistakes...
if this is learning FROM MISTAKES .. THEN .... :(
 
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Because of the following factor:

DRDO had "impressed" upon the ministry that DCNS wants to bring to India the same technology that DRDO is developing
Good, DRDO knows where they stand. We should ask DRDO to partner with private company to get it to production stage. At the same time allow DCNS too. That will ensure fair competition and get what we want.

DCNS being smart has seized the initiative , but will DRDO deliver thats the question?
 
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Good, DRDO knows where they stand. We should ask DRDO to partner with private company to get it to production stage. At the same time allow DCNS too. That will ensure fair competition and get what we want.

DCNS being smart has seized the initiative , but will DRDO deliver thats the question?

They are partnering with L&T for production of prototype. But honestly, we should have gone for DCNS AIP for all 6 scorpenes from start. Could have used DRDO AIP on P75I or P76. Now we will have an extensive ground time and maintenance effort to refit these scorpenes with DRDO AIP during MLU. I can guarantee you that the system won't be available for integration even on the sixth Scorpene on order as these need to be installed atleast 1.5-2 years prior to launch date of submarine, unless we of course delay the fabrication of the 6th hull. Navy officialls have already hinted that the 5th hull may not include AIP in contrast to earlier plans. Soon news of the 6th hull missing deadline will be released.

P.S: Not criticising DRDO for the delay, certain tech takes time to evolve and it's normal. But we will end up losing more money by deferring AIP integration on to these submarines. Anyone familiar with the field can confirm the process involved in AIP integration. It's not a plug in and play modification. While I'm all in for local products, sometimes our country lacks the right decision making ability.

Good Day all!
 
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Unfortunately i dont recall any meeting happening post the discussion which was pointed here

upload_2016-8-31_14-7-18.png

https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-304#post-8622078

On the DRDO AIP ,
upload_2016-8-31_14-8-35.png

upload_2016-8-31_14-9-2.png

upload_2016-8-31_14-9-23.png


  • One must understand, this AIP will have to pass the simulated hull results appropriately.
  • At present we all see is a land based prototype success and now we need to proceed to actual testing period in real world conditions.
  • Post that this will be installed in a test submarine , possibly a Kilo class submarine
  • It will be first tested on shore to see the results adhere and then it will be tested as per the guidelines
  • Then comes submerged tests under different conditions like say at depths of 10m ,25m, 50m etc.
  • Post which the controlled patrols based trials
  • Finally extensive sea trials.
Once all this is done the AIP will be then certified to be usable for other submarines.

As far as i know, the DRDO AIP has changed its technology from December 2015 and has now gone ahead with a much better fuel cell product as compared to earlier one. and its still not matured at all.. In fact project definition is going on as per August 1,2016 report.

upload_2016-8-31_14-29-21.png

Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-admiral-sunil-lanba/articleshow/53489624.cms


What Admiral Lamba omitted is land based prototypes are followed by testing as defined above and finally a product will be released and certified for usage in actual submarines.

as per Dr M Patri, NMRL

upload_2016-8-31_14-44-42.png

upload_2016-8-31_14-45-7.png


and Mr S R Choudhury, NMRL, DRDO , Ambernath
upload_2016-8-31_14-48-5.png




will continue in next post
 
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Continued from above here
https://defence.pk/threads/india-re...lly-produce-api-sub-tech.446839/#post-8635814

upload_2016-8-31_14-49-46.png


upload_2016-8-31_14-50-8.png


upload_2016-8-31_14-50-23.png


upload_2016-8-31_14-50-37.png


upload_2016-8-31_14-50-52.png



Thus this 100% FDI was needed to bring in the DCNS next generation fuel cell AIP technology in order to complete our technology which is facing some critical and challenging issues.

We can still make it but the product would require more than 2 years before we go forward for testing .. In simple words, this DRDO AIP wont be available for last 2 scorpenes and in all probability the first few of the P75I also as its actual timeline for deployment is indeed many many years away.

And one more thing, we cannot keep protecting DRDO forever bcz Scorpenes and all future SSK need AIP from Day 1 .. no point going for a costly refit for installing DRDO AIP on this and that also after 15 years of service life.
 
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I find the Article Amusing . Can anyone Confirm that MoD actually rejected the DCNS AIP or just some anonymous source again?

Second , wasn't there a old 2 month article saying that the last 2 IN Scorpene Boats WILL NOT have the DRDO AIP as the tech is not mature enough as @PARIKRAMA mentioned - Then why are there current report and articles saying different?
 
Last edited:
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I find the Article Amusing . Can anyone Confirm that MoD actually rejected the DCNS AIP or just some anonymous source again?

Second , wasn't there a old 2 month article saying that the last 2 IN Scorpene Boats WILL NOT have the DRDO AIP as the tech is not mature enough as @PARIKRAMA mentioned - when why are there current report and articles saying different?

Indian way of rejecting is giving neither approve nor denying it
 
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We should scrap P-75I and should go for attack version of Arihant.


so that the great at DRDO can gobble up funds in the name of R&D for next one decade.


why only AIP .. DRDO has more advance technology than DCNS for entire Submarine .. but the foreign product loving .. traitor armed forces forced GOI to purchase from french.


if this is learning FROM MISTAKES .. THEN .... :(

DRDO is made up of a bunch of incompetent Nincompoops...End of story.

According to you, we should give 12 billion to a foreign company to buy submarines. Wah! Bunch of losers. tell this to French, Russian , American or even chinese to buy submarines from others, they will shot you. lol

Unfortunately i dont recall any meeting happening post the discussion which was pointed here

View attachment 330269
https://defence.pk/threads/dassault...ussions-thread-2.351407/page-304#post-8622078

On the DRDO AIP ,
View attachment 330270
View attachment 330271
View attachment 330272

  • One must understand, this AIP will have to pass the simulated hull results appropriately.
  • At present we all see is a land based prototype success and now we need to proceed to actual testing period in real world conditions.
  • Post that this will be installed in a test submarine , possibly a Kilo class submarine
  • It will be first tested on shore to see the results adhere and then it will be tested as per the guidelines
  • Then comes submerged tests under different conditions like say at depths of 10m ,25m, 50m etc.
  • Post which the controlled patrols based trials
  • Finally extensive sea trials.
Once all this is done the AIP will be then certified to be usable for other submarines.

As far as i know, the DRDO AIP has changed its technology from December 2015 and has now gone ahead with a much better fuel cell product as compared to earlier one. and its still not matured at all.. In fact project definition is going on as per August 1,2016 report.

View attachment 330281
Source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-admiral-sunil-lanba/articleshow/53489624.cms


What Admiral Lamba omitted is land based prototypes are followed by testing as defined above and finally a product will be released and certified for usage in actual submarines.

as per Dr M Patri, NMRL

View attachment 330282
View attachment 330283

and Mr S R Choudhury, NMRL, DRDO , Ambernath
View attachment 330290



will continue in next post


Kudos DRDO.
 
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We should scrap P-75I and should go for attack version of Arihant.






According to you, we should give 12 billion to a foreign company to buy submarines. Wah! Bunch of losers. tell this to French, Russian , American or even chinese to buy submarines from others, they will shot you. lol




Kudos DRDO.
NO SIR .. GIVE IT TO the gods siting in DRDO .. may be in next century they will give u Submarines !!
 
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