India raises concern over Russian attack copter sale to Pakistan

[Secur]

Nope not at all. This is very silly, almost childish logic. Everything has a time and place, a context where it is relevant and a shelf life. The MiG-21 in its day was a formidable and cutting edge fighter, now it is junk and known as the "flying coffin".


The same goes for the Mi-35, it was a formidable machine but in the modern age it is not cutting edge anymore. For using as a gunship against rag-tag militias and terror groups in unconventional war fighting it is a decent platform but in a conventional fight it is yesterday's tech. So for use in anti-narco ops it should be great- IF, that is what it is really for.

Would you be happy if the PAF was acquiring MiG-21s?

Ironically , this is a logic being used by people whose country operates 60-70% of all equipment Russian , not me . Just because India is phasing out the older variants of the Mi-35 in next 2 or 5 years doesn't make it useless or less lethal , the forty year old design was put by you , obviously as such the helicopters are due to be transferred to Pakistan , they suddenly are outdated and vintage machines but nowhere it strikes you that maybe the ones we are getting are upgraded versions , not the ones you purchased in the 90's , does it? The Mi-35 is still a very formidable machine as per others , the one of its kind in the world to combine both troops carrying capacity and firepower .

I would be very happy if PAF was acquiring the Mig21 Bison when the others were phasing out FL's to use the correct analogy and not childish oversimplifications .

remember 70% of india's hardware is russian orgin.

That doesn't make them dependent on you , you need spares and technical support , not them .

 

[Abingdonboy]

In all honestly I think this deal between Russia and Pakistan had India's blessing. It is simply to absurd for a sensible individual to consider that Russia would jeopardise either its defence or govt ties with India for the sake of closer ties with Pakistan. Pakistan can neither bee seen as an alternative to India in terms of purchasing power in the defence sphere (sub $6bn annual defence budget compared to close to $40 BN for India with an earmarked $100BN for modernisation of its military by 2020) or in terms of global power (India is part of the G20,a fellow member of BRICS, projected to be the 2 biggest economy within 40 years, 3rd largest economy in PPP terms, aspirations to become a permanent member of the UNSC etc etc). Russia likely outlined that it was looking to improve ties with Pakistan and was offering this deal to them for a relatively small number of (rather) outdated helos that would be used in anti-terror/narco ops (maybe the Pakistanis have some sort of official agreement in place for this, who knows?). The Russians likely made the case for this and told the Indian side they needed to improve Russia's ties with Pakistan for xyz reason (mostly due to issues in Afghanistan). In this instance there was no reason for India to screw up ties with Pakistan just for the sake of a few helos it is replacing itself. Any Indian torpedoing of this deal would have immediately screwed Indo-Pak ties under the new BJP govt before they had even taken the first steps to peace.....

As the statement @Secur has provided points out- the Russians discussed this deal with India....


Just my take on it anyway.

 

[ito]

Ironically , this is a logic is being used by people whose country operates 60-70% of all equipment Russian , not me . Just because India is phasing out the older variants of the Mi-35 in next 2 or 5 years doesn't make it useless or less lethal , the forty year old design was put by you , obviously as such the helicopters are due to be transferred to Pakistan , they suddenly are outdated and vintage machines but nowhere it strikes you that maybe the ones we are getting are upgraded versions , not the ones you purchased in the 90's , does it? The Mi-35 is still a very formidable machine as per others , the one of its kind in the world to combine both troops carrying capacity and firepower .

I would be very happy if PAF was acquiring the Mig21 Bison when the others were phasing out SM to use the correct analogy and not childish oversimplifications .



That doesn't make them dependent on you , you need spares and technical support , not them .

yes indians needs spares and russians need money. it is two way. imagine how would russia react if india were to stop buying new military hardware from russia altogether, and as of now india is the world largest military importer.

can russia afford to loose such important customer!

i feel russia will supply that military hardware to pakistan where india would not object the sales seriously. overall, in pakistan case india holds the veto

 

[Secur]

yes indians needs spares and russians need money. it is two way.

Yes , like the U.S. sells to both Pakistan and India , right? How do they afford to lose such important customer there? Do they take your permission before selling to Islamabad or vice versa? India has already started shifting to Western tech looking at the recent developments .

I don't buy the spin put on it. I'd take the words from the horse's mouth and Mr Akbaruddin states the sale "figured in the talks" between the Russian deputy PM and External Affairs minister of India but doesn't state India has taken a position on it. I challenge you to provide me with a source that shows India officially taking a stand against this sale- you won't find one.
Let's be real, if India really truly wanted this deal with Pakistan scrapped it would already be old news.

I am not interested in selling you anything , at all . Looking at the recent developments would be enough eye-opener , is it possible that Indians who whine at every defense deal by Pakistan with different countries , didn't do so with their old and time tested allies the Kremlin? Lets be real again , now you would say that Indians asked the bear to warm-up its relations with Islamabad and end the arms embargo , I was expecting better arguments

P.S. Yes , the RD-93's are old news , this is a new one . Lets not remains stuck in the past , shall we?

In all honestly I think this deal between Russia and Pakistan had India's blessing.

More honestly , you should wake up , smell the coffee and not remain deluded with the idea that the world revolves around India . Now , you can make the argument as to how the engines for the JF-17 came with Indian blessing and how New Delhi asked the Kremlin not to pressurize Ukraine to cancel the deal when they were supplying II-78 . What extent there even lies of human ability to rationalize the truth?

 

[ito]

In all honestly I think this deal between Russia and Pakistan had India's blessing. It is simply to absurd for a sensible individual to consider that Russia would jeopardise either its defence or govt ties with India for the sake of closer ties with Pakistan. Pakistan can neither bee seen as an alternative to India in terms of purchasing power in the defence sphere (sub $6bn annual defence budget compared to close to $40 BN for India with an earmarked $100BN for modernisation of its military by 2020) or in terms of global power (India is part of the G20,a fellow member of BRICS, projected to be the 2 biggest economy within 40 years, 3rd largest economy in PPP terms, aspirations to become a permanent member of the UNSC etc etc). Russia likely outlined that it was looking to improve ties with Pakistan and was offering this deal to them for a relatively small number of (rather) outdated helos that would be used in anti-terror/narco ops (maybe the Pakistanis have some sort of official agreement in place for this, who knows?). The Russians likely made the case for this and told the Indian side they needed to improve Russia's ties with Pakistan for xyz reason (mostly due to issues in Afghanistan). In this instance there was no reason for India to screw up ties with Pakistan just for the sake of a few helos it is replacing itself. Any Indian torpedoing of this deal would have immediately screwed Indo-Pak ties under the new BJP govt before they had even taken the first steps to peace.....

As the statement @Secur has provided points out- the Russians discussed this deal with India....


Just my take on it anyway.

i think,considerinbg pakistan has infleunece with taliban , this sales to pakistan is russia's way of buying influence in islamabad. russia has legtimate interest in afghanistan post US withdrawal.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Ironically , this is a logic is being used by people whose country operates 60-70% of all equipment Russian

India is diversifying, this figure will drop below 50% by 2022.

India is phasing out the older variants of the Mi-35 in next 2 or 5 years doesn't make it useless

Nowhere have I said this. Simply that they aren't exactly cutting edge but for pounding Ak-weilding militants they will do the job.

But one can't overlook that it IS an old design and that there are more advanced and updated attack helos around. India is phasing them out for a reason, as are the Russians themselves. There is a reason for this.....

they suddenly are outdated and vintage machines

Neither have I said this.

maybe the ones we are getting are upgraded versions

No doubt you are.

not the ones you purchased in the 90's

Of course you are, also note India upgraded it's Mi-35 fleet in the mid 00s with Israeli electronics.

i think,considerinbg pakistan has infleunece with taliban , this sales to pakistan is russia's way of buying influence in islamabad. russia has legtimate interest in afghanistan post US withdrawal.

Indeed and thus they are courting the Pakistanis- no doubt about that. But seen as India is being mocked by the very title of this thread and subsequently by certain members here I thought I would just point out that India has more than likely signed off on this deal and it's not a case of Pakistan scoring a win over India or Russia choosing Paksitan over India.

 

[ito]

Yes , like the U.S. sells to both Pakistan and India , right? How do they afford to lose such important customer there? Do they take your permission before selling to Islamabad or vice versa? India has already started shifting to Western tech looking at the recent developments .

US is a different case. US domestic defence budget is so large and its customer base so wide that US can afford to sell to many. even here US is offering technologies to india that are not for sales elsewhere.

in russia's case, russia is too dependent on india's money.

 

[VelocuR]

Brazil Air force signed contract with Russia about $350-400 million dollars in Oct-Nov 2008 and delivered 12 Mi-35 to Brazil in December 2009 and formally inducted into service in April 2010.

Azerbaijan contracted with Russia for the delivery of 24 Mi-35 in September 2010 and delivery of 12 total in 2012.

PICTURES: Brazilian air force fields first Mi-35M attack helicopters - 4/22/2010 - Flight Global

 

[ito]

Indeed and thus they are courting the Pakistanis- no doubt about that. But seen as India is being mocked by the very title of this thread and subsequently by certain members here I thought I would just point out that India has more than likely signed off on this deal and it's not a case of Pakistan scoring a win over India or Russia choosing Paksitan over India.

you are right in your assessment about 'india's blessing' with regard to this sales. russian influence in afghanistan is good for india.

 

[VelocuR]

June 15 2014
Footage released by Iraq's defense ministry on Saturday showed a helicopter gunship targeting what Iraq says are Sunni militant targets in northern Iraq. The Mi-35 helicopter gunship fired missiles at several buildings and a vehicle in the provinces of Ninevah and Salaheddin.

 

[Abingdonboy]

you are right in your assessment about 'india's blessing' with regard to this sales. russian influence in afghanistan is good for india.

Precisely, India wants a stable Afghanistan above all else, it doesn't want a return of the Taliban scum into power and thus Russia is a nice conduit for assisting in this objective.

India and Russia working together on ensuring a stable Afghanistan isn't exactly a secret:

India-Russia-Afghanistan synergy: India to pay for Russian arms supplies to Kabul — RT Op-Edge


I'd go so far as to say Pakistan was being outfoxed, thinking they are getting one over on India with this sale but in actuality this deal comes with strings attached (Russia asking Pakistan to work more in stabilising Afghanistan) which, in the long term suits India.


I'll be called delusional for this post no doubt, but connect the dots, look at the big picture and it is certainly something to consider......

 

[IndoUS]

Precisely, India wants a stable Afghanistan above all else, it doesn't want a return of the Taliban scum into power and thus Russia is a nice conduit for assisting in this objective.

India and Russia working together on ensuring a stable Afghanistan isn't exactly a secret:

India-Russia-Afghanistan synergy: India to pay for Russian arms supplies to Kabul — RT Op-Edge


I'd go so far as to say Pakistan was being outfoxed, thinking they are getting one over on India with this sale but in actuality this deal comes with strings attached (Russia asking Pakistan to work more in stabilising Afghanistan) which, in the long term suits India.


I'll be called delusional for this post no doubt, but connect the dots, look at the big picture and it is certainly something to consider......

Russia also has interest in Afghanistan, since a unstable Afghanistan means that the Terrorists groups in the south western regions of Russia would have backing of the Taliban.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Russia also has interest in Afghanistan, since a unstable Afghanistan means that the Terrorists groups in the south western regions of Russia would have backing of the Taliban.

Indeed, Russia isn't offering their services for nothing.


The way I see it- a stable Afghanistan = win-win for India and Russia and thus Sale of Mi-35s to Pakistan with the premise they be used against terrorists is a win-win-win for Pakistan, Russia and India.

 

[Secur]

Nowhere have I said this. Simply that they aren't exactly cutting edge but for pounding Ak-weilding militants they will do the job.
But one can't overlook that it IS an old design and that there are more advanced and updated attack helos around. India is phasing them out for a reason, as are the Russians themselves. There is a reason for this

What was that bit again about the design being forty-years old? The implication being they are useless today or they are outdated? How old is the F16's itself? Is it useless or outdated by today's standards then? Speaking of old stuff , remind me of the commissioning date of the admiral Gorshkov? Not cutting edge any longer?

The old designs can be upgraded with the latest technologies , something you should have known perhaps spending your time in the Indian defense section , isn't it very basic? Or the urge to post rhetoric got the best of you? . Last time I saw , the Russians were ordering the upgraded Hinds to fill in the gaps . The Indians no doubt , looking to curtail their dependence on the bear aren't looking to either upgrade or order the new versions , that again doesn't make the latest M version only good for pounding militants . @ptldM3 Are the Hinds suddenly that outdated to only take care of a few " rag tag " militants today?

Neither have I said this.

You have implied this again and again , in your responses here @147 and @151 . It wasn't me who jumped in proclaiming how Indians were phasing it out , how they should gift to Pakistan or enlightening us of the same type of helicopters whose design is forty-years old . Same type? Not sure what to make of that .

 

[Viper0011.]

Stupid title, no where has any Indian official raised any objection of any kind to this deal.

Are you sure that's how it works? That any acquisition by the Pakistanis is not met with tremendous tummy pain by you guys....?